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Immer
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
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reply to Goodmongo

Re: [Cataclysm] An excellent post on LFR

said by Goodmongo:

For Blizzard the bottom line is to make money.

My youngest son had me pay for his resubscription simply because of LFR. I got to see much of end game content but he was too young to perform and farm at the levels required.

With LFR him and a bunch (five or six) friends all came back to WOW. He said that they all wanted to see and experiance end game but couldn't in the past. LFR now offers him that opportunity.

And Blizzard is happy because they now have a small group once again paying monthy fees.

well said. please don't ruin it, lol.
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:12
reply to bpoff17

said by bpoff17:

Personally, I did heroic modes in TBC.

There were no heroic modes in TBC. The raids were all "heroic" in that they were brutally difficult and very few players and guilds ever got past Tier Five content, let alone saw and killed Illidan and heaven forbid made a run at Sunwell and Kil'Jaeden.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


CpnObvious

join:2010-05-05
Alexandria, VA
kudos:3
reply to Adalicia

I'm not arguing the points you're making about the OP- rather, I'm extrapolating them to a logical conclusion. The quoted poster's lack of raiding desire means he's not the guy I'm worried about. But what you have now is a non-raiding-guild outlet for those who have grown restless with the rest of PvE content. Some people (like the quoted poster) stop playing as much when they hit a wall; others look for ways around or over that wall. Now there's no wall at all. That's good for those people (I'm not debating that), but really bad for raiding guilds. Raiding turnover is high these days; the raiding base is shrinking, and many raids are challenge to make roster on a consistent basis. Drew's thought about non-top 3 guilds on medium pop servers is accurate. Getting raids together and going is a constant battle against the decline of the raiding base. Disincentivizing those who might otherwise look for a raiding guild by allowing the same experience and comparable gear through a quick and personal-only means is not helpful.
--
"Hunters are SOL, but that's normal." -Nickdres


bpoff17

join:2009-03-31
reply to Adalicia

said by Adalicia:

said by bpoff17:

Personally, I did heroic modes in TBC.

There were no heroic modes in TBC. The raids were all "heroic" in that they were brutally difficult and very few players and guilds ever got past Tier Five content, let alone saw and killed Illidan and heaven forbid made a run at Sunwell and Kil'Jaeden.

5 man's had heroics.....

These were what we used as trials for just about any potential raider coming in. Even in Karazhan purples, or crafted epics, it still forced you into mechanics. When people started to really outgear them, that's when we stopped using that as a trial to bring in new recruits.


drew
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Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6
reply to Immer

double post.



drew
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reply to Immer

That's crap immer...

I spent ~9 months in a guild on a low-ish medium pop server from the last few months of WotLK to a couple weeks into 4.2. The guild worked together and eventually downed content. We were in a never ending recruitment period as we would get a couple players and they'd either be good (and subsequently get frustrated with our slow performance and then leave) or be bad and we'd try to get them to play better.

In a world with LFR, this guild won't do shit but LFR. There are 6-7 people certainly good enough for normal (and some heroics) raids. They're going to have a zero-player pool to recruit from as they aren't good enough for the good players and the bad ones that you could sort-of train and be that "warm body" that we all love...

LFR won't impact the heroic raiding guild very much, if at all. LFR will eviscerate the normal raiding guild on a non high pop server.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory



Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:12
reply to drew

said by drew:

LFR won't impact the heroic raiding guild very much, if at all. LFR will eviscerate the normal raiding guild on a non high pop server.

I disagree with this. As you know drew I recently came back to WoW. The guild I was a part of from TBC up until when I quit in February (or March) is now basically dead and I only have three people from that guild to work with. We started a new guild with our return and have been actively recruiting, gearing, and testing people for raid positions and what have you. Some of our "new" people have done the LFR. If anything in EMBOLDENED them to find a guild to see the content at a Normal Level or higher. Our new Paladin tank is a prime example. After doing the LFR he can't wait to get into the Normal version of the instance, to enjoy the challenge, etc.

And you know damn well Sisters of Elune is a fucking shit hole for progression and has a total population of sub seven thousand accounts (probably more akin to about five thousand). WoW Progress has this server listed as the fourth worst US server period. That's fucking bad. Yet, we're filling spots and within probably two or three weeks we'll be attempting normal versions of the Dragon Soul.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


drew
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Port Orchard, WA
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If that happens for you guys, that's fantastic.

I just don't see it happening considering the 7 years I've spent on this game. Warm bodies always take the path of least resistance and LFR is it.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory


bpoff17

join:2009-03-31
reply to Adalicia

said by Adalicia See ProfileYet, we're filling spots and within probably two or three weeks we'll be attempting normal versions of the Dragon Soul

This, I think is what will make it a good tool. You'll get people that have been gone for a while, coming back and gearing up, being able to help fill in regular raid spots. It's all part of progression. Do LFR for gear, while grinding heroics for VP. Step up to the next level of normal modes, gearing up along the way. Eventually building to hard modes if that's your thing.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to drew

said by drew:

That's crap immer...

I spent ~9 months in a guild on a low-ish medium pop server from the last few months of WotLK to a couple weeks into 4.2. The guild worked together and eventually downed content. We were in a never ending recruitment period as we would get a couple players and they'd either be good (and subsequently get frustrated with our slow performance and then leave) or be bad and we'd try to get them to play better.

You forgot about having players poached by the actual top guilds on the server, having good players with guild loyalty burn out on raiding due to the revolving door and warm bodies, and (in some cases) the "big fish in a small pond" attitude that could come from one or two of the guild's best raid members.

And even on high pop servers, all of that could contribute to losing critical mass. And once that happened, it was hard to regain. At least with LFR, those 6-7 players can get into a raid without bailing on the guild they otherwise call home.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:12
reply to drew

said by drew:

If that happens for you guys, that's fantastic.

I just don't see it happening considering the 7 years I've spent on this game. Warm bodies always take the path of least resistance and LFR is it.

It might and it might not. The point is for every doom and gloom "the sky is falling" line I've seen I've either experienced or talked with someone that has experienced the opposite.

You know as well as I that I only do 10 man content anyway, so perhaps there is a valid point when it comes to 25 man content, that requires more warm bodies than I will. But, in any event, I don't see the system as a bad feature in the least.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


Immer
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Evans, GA
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Reviews:
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reply to drew

said by drew:

That's crap immer...

I spent ~9 months in a guild on a low-ish medium pop server from the last few months of WotLK to a couple weeks into 4.2. The guild worked together and eventually downed content. We were in a never ending recruitment period as we would get a couple players and they'd either be good (and subsequently get frustrated with our slow performance and then leave) or be bad and we'd try to get them to play better.

In a world with LFR, this guild won't do shit but LFR. There are 6-7 people certainly good enough for normal (and some heroics) raids. They're going to have a zero-player pool to recruit from as they aren't good enough for the good players and the bad ones that you could sort-of train and be that "warm body" that we all love...

LFR won't impact the heroic raiding guild very much, if at all. LFR will eviscerate the normal raiding guild on a non high pop server.

You need to do a much better job of making your argument before you dismiss my posts as crap.

so you don't think my post applied to all guilds, just progression guilds? that's true... because I thought I was only dealing with the elitists. Now it seems even quasi-players in medium-pop servers want in on the action. That happens to be where I live, atm... Nathrezim alliance and Smolderthorn Horde. (you look em up).

Our small guild with tight community but never more than 6 online can only hope to PUG... but we are medium-low pop with 3 major guilds on the server... no PUGs in Cata. with LFR, we get to see ZOMG a 25M raid!! that downs shit! My tank had a blast... he had to adjust his UI because he had never had to tank a 25m raid... ever. We did the first wing of LFR. And now we are excited (to the point of considering paying for server transfers) to find a guild that will allow us to raid 10m normals.. but we don't have to first learn to raid + farm FL we can work on LFR, learning the basic mechanics, and collect 384 gear... and then work on 10m Normal.

but, yeah... I'm full of crap... and all of this will kill my guild. Because, DS raid without LFR would have provided me soooo many more options on my servers... hmmmm?
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Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego


drew
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reply to bt

I forgot?

No, bud, I know it all too well. I've spent the vast majority of my WoW career in the middle of the rung in terms of guilds. The only exception was during Vanilla. I was king.. for a few months.

I think the LFR system shrinks that recruiting pool, Ada thinks it's bigger.

I don't have any skin in the game and I deleted WoW from my hard drive for the first time... ever.. just last night.
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flickr | Of faith, power and glory



drew
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reply to Immer

quote:
and all of this will kill my guild.
Yes, see below.
quote:
And now we are excited (to the point of considering paying for server transfers) to find a guild that will allow us to raid 10m normals..
This kind of proves my point.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory


Treebark
Premium
join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC
kudos:1
reply to drew

said by drew:

I don't have any skin in the game and I deleted WoW from my hard drive for the first time... ever.. just last night.

Grats


halsneb
Premium
join:2005-10-14
Osage, IA
reply to Immer

I believe the LFR tool will enhance people looking to do the normal/heroic raids, as it will allow them to get gear they could not otherwise, as well as learn the basics of the fight in a more relaxed environment.

This will allow those who have the time, but not the support to be able to increase their gear, and knowledge and be more attractive to the raiding guilds that had very hard to attain standards before.

For me it will allow me to build my toon to a point where a raiding guild would be interested in taking me in and helping me progress in the full out raids.

Just my thoughts, but I have a few people in my casual guild who feel the same way, and will be able to advance to larger more active guilds.
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"User, Noun. The word computer professionals use when they mean Idiot." -- Dave Barry


cigtyme
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join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1
reply to Immer

As a RL i like it and Hate it. It allows people to have a RL youtube fight where they get a 384 possibly after. What pains me is to explain the differences between real 10M raiding and 25M LFR.



drew
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reply to Immer

One thing I want to be perfectly clear:

I pray that I am horribly, horribly wrong.
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bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to drew

Hah. Should have said "forgot to mention" I guess.

My point is that on some servers, even some high population ones, there was only a recruiting pool if you were a top guild - and that recruiting pool was poaching players from the smaller guilds that were barely holding on.

No doubt this will kill the chances of some smaller guilds for seeing the content without LFR. No doubt, it will also allow some other smaller guilds to rise from the dead and maybe even grow.


cigtyme
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join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
kudos:1
reply to drew

LFR just causes a minor leagues system of players now for raiding guilds. What about the percentage of people who only PvP? Now they can raid without pugging or being in a guild. This LFR will raise the iLvL of toons accross the board. I know skill always trumops gear, but if i can get a recruit who has seen more that just the first boss and already has a 2 piece set of 384 its a win win for guild and recruit.



drew
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Judging by the stories I've read here and elsewhere, the ease of LFR indicates that that player may not have anywhere near the requisite skills to be raiding at the normal level. Hopefully (s)he's trainable!
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Immer
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reply to drew

said by drew:

quote:
and all of this will kill my guild.
Yes, see below.
quote:
Our small guild with tight community but never more than 6 online can only hope to PUG... And now we are excited (to the point of considering paying for server transfers) to find a guild that will allow us to raid 10m normals..
This kind of proves my point.

you missed a part in that quote, there... I put it back in. You ignored the fact that our guild wasn't doing any content (4.0.6 through 4.2). The inability to recruit on my server is unchanged by LFR in 4.3. Same with your story above... your guild was struggling with recruitment for a multitude of reasons LFR doesn't add to it unless that guild refuses to do it.

If you have a guild with good people, LFR allows your guild to gear up for DS (and learn basic mechanics) with 15 other random people. It gives you a way to improve as a guild. It also relieves you (as a guild) of the burden of having to "gear up" a new recruit by constantly grinding out dungeons or old content. that's win-win, if your guild leadership adjusts to the new paradigm.
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Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

cigtyme
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join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA
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If you have a guild with good people, LFR allows your guild to gear up for DS (and learn basic mechanics) with 15 other random people. It gives you a way to improve as a guild. It also relieves you (as a guild) of the burden of having to "gear up" a new recruit by constantly grinding out dungeons or old content. that's win-win, if your guild leadership adjusts to the new paradigm.

I feel this way completely as a GM and RL


drew
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reply to Immer

quote:
And now we are excited (to the point of considering paying for server transfers) to find a guild that will allow us to raid 10m normals
In reddit meme fashion: This kills the crab.

LFR is enabling you guys to see the content; that's a good thing. But it's not doing anything for your recruitment, really. Now you get people who have a little bit better skill and a vague idea that a ball spits fire at them. At the end of the day though, it's not helping you recruit on your server.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to drew

said by drew:

Judging by the stories I've read here and elsewhere, the ease of LFR indicates that that player may not have anywhere near the requisite skills to be raiding at the normal level. Hopefully (s)he's trainable!

That would be the "career minor leaguer".

There are also the players that just don't have the experience, and it reduces the gear grind for (otherwise good) players who have fallen behind the gear curve for one reason or another.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:12
reply to drew

While this is true the LFR system has been out for two weeks (along with the patch in general) and there are people who have yet to try the system, myself as an example. Will I try it? You bet I will and I'm sure a lot of other people that haven't tried it yet will. Time will only tell if it helps guilds recruit, I'd say a two week window is hardly an acceptable time period to draw conclusions from.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.



Immer
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reply to drew

/sigh...

it isn't doing anything for our recruitment... in either direction. I was not saying it helped recruitment. What you called crap initially, was my assertion that LFR merely forces guilds to provide an incentive besides "join us if you wanna kill shit".



drew
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reply to Adalicia

said by Adalicia:

Time will only tell if it helps guilds recruit, I'd say a two week window is hardly an acceptable time period to draw conclusions from.

Whole heartedly agreed.

Going back to my original point, however: wayyyyyyyyyyy too fast to see the end of the content.
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CpnObvious

join:2010-05-05
Alexandria, VA
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to cigtyme

Easy, fellas. Nobody's arguing for or against anybody else's right to play the game as they want to.

We're talking mass population dynamics without the benefit of actual statistics. It's all opinion on eventual result.

My experience has been closer to Drew's than Ada's, in that I've been in the same guild for 5+ years, and I've been part of the effort to keep it together and raiding through all of the changes that have come and gone in that time. Basically, EVERY change in raiding accessability has led to a harder time of keeping the guild going. Success doesn't guarantee things will be easier, either... the lead guild on my main's server has imploded at least 5-6 times in that span (not the same guild, but whichever guild has been in the lead.) The guilds that Immer spokw of that can afford to /gkick a guy who can't raid every night because of family committments exist rarified air that most of the raiding populace knows nothing of. Most raiding guilds I know of are bending over backwards to keep people in the guild, even if they can't make every or even most nights, just because it's *so damn hard to sustain a raid.*

The two sides here seem to be, "LFR will make me want to raid normals, it will increase your pool," vs "LFR will disincentivize raiding normals, and will decrease the pool." There's another problem on the table that isn't being considered- that mass of non-hardcore raiders that's sustaining the "middle class" of raiding guilds out there. I'm not sure that the overwhelming majority of LFR folks will ever raid seriously- if they didn't have the circumstances to raid normally before LFR, why would they have the circumstances to raid normally after? Raiding is more than motivation; it's a slog for most guilds, and it takes time. If you're confined to LFR because of time or committment issues, those issues will still exist when you try to raid normally. And then further, maybe that non-hardcore raiding-guild raider who's always been a little flakey, but has been cajoled into mostly-attending the raids, will decide it's not worth the hassle of organized raiding when he can get almost the same experience for FAR less work from LFR. Now, you might say, "well, you don't want that kind of guy anyway," but for a LOT of raiding guilds, "that kind of guy" is the only thing keeping them going, because the raiding base has shrunk like hell. So I guess I have a lack of faith that the previously-constrained population will suddenly become unconstrained as a result of LFR, and I'm worried about the bottom falling out of the "middle class" of raiding guilds who rely on the "raiding casual" to make roster every week. Those fears may be unfounded, but in 5 years in this guild and 6 years of raiding, I've NEVER seen an accessibility increase lead to a more viable raiding pool. It's always been more people who decide to spend their time more independently, which has detracted from the more organized activities.
--
"Hunters are SOL, but that's normal." -Nickdres



drew
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reply to Immer

[BQUOTE=immergruenWhat you called crap initially, was my assertion that LFR merely forces guilds to provide an incentive besides "join us if you wanna kill shit".
[/BQUOTE

Because that is crap. There are guilds out there for close, tight knit communities. I personally enjoy those kinds of guilds. That being said, they aren't for everyone. Or even the majority, I'd argue.

But taking away the ONLY reason you have the vast majority of guilds... This will be painful.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory