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drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6
reply to Nightfall

Re: [Cataclysm] An excellent post on LFR

said by Nightfall:

It is reasons that the elitists are giving that are really sickening. Its as if they believe that only the top 1-2% of raiding guilds should experience the endgame content. Thats a load of crap in my mind.

The LFR system won't remove people from the raiding pool. The people who are all about raiding won't screw with LFR and will find a guild to down the content on a higher difficulty. The loot is better at that level anyway.

I'm not sure where you're extrapolating our argument to say that only 1-2% of raiding guilds should experience the content. That's not true of my belief nor of my argument. It is, however, my opinion, that there should be a modicum of effort to see the content. And I don't mean "faceroll through heroics and BGs to get enough of currency X or Y to get the required ilvl" I mean actually learning to play your class properly. I mean having to enchant your gear. I mean having to actually socialize and field a raid.

The LFR system hasn't removed people from the raiding pool; this is correct. However, you're talking about oranges, rather than apples. The normal+ mode raiding pool has, I suspect, shrunk. This pool was already struggling with the combined gear from 10 and 25 man, as well as specific content challenges between the raid tiers. The addition of being able to see the content outside of an organized raid (and guild in most situations) has, again I suspect, shrunk the pool further. People are naturally lazy. If all you care about is seeing the content, then you're going to take the path of least resistance. These people, while sometimes stellar performers, are often nothing more than warm bodies. The raiding scene in WoW and other games is based around warm bodies. You have half+ the members of the raid as knowledgable and qualified and you have the remainder of warm bodies. These folks are usually qualified enough to move out of the fire. They do mediocre DPS, HPS and often are not familiar with fight mechanics. That's okay though, the non heroic fights are tuned for this.

These people are simply critical to the raid team. LFR has provided them with a way out of the organized raid structure and into something else. This is a net positive for them but a big negative for the other half the raid. In a perfect world, my team of raiders would find the other team of raiders and join up and be on their merry way. I ask each one of you reading this to count the number of times you've seen a successful guild merger on your own realm(s). I define successful as there was little to no lag time in raiding, progression stayed on-course or improved, the guild did not implode shortly there after. That's just the reality of the situation. But nothing in this is binary, really. It's not on or off... it's much more diverse than that.

The MMORPG genre has relied upon dedicated players doing a dedicated task. Where the difference between games comes in is usually the level of dedication required. EQ required an enormous amount of dedication, as did FFXI. Other games like DAoC required less. WoW, not even that much.

We can talk a lot about how the genre has evolved... WoW has been at the forefront of that. Never before has a MMO spanned such an age range. That's a good thing. The issue is that the game continues to slide in the direction of caring less about my desired method of play and more about being a casual player with no real commitment. This directly impacts me. I understand things change in WoW. I just want them to remember the players that helped make the game successful enough to launch it into the straosphere. Throw us a bone.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory


marco
Premium
join:2001-09-14
reply to Immer

Basically, this boils down to something important:

People who play games to overcome a challenge need to get a life.

Games are for entertainment. Using them to feel like you're accomplishing something is unhealthy. Period.

Blizzard did the right thing by making their content accessible...everyone complaining about it needs to look at their lives.
--



Treebark
Premium
join:2010-03-04
Havelock, NC
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Why, because that is important to you? Sounds like a bunch of shoulds. Maybe overcoming a challenge in a game is the person's entertainment. Not everyone is the same and likes the same things there boss. Maybe you need to look at your life since you are generalizing.



navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to Immer

Agreed. Most games have a hard mode for a challenge. FPSs have online where you try to "kill" another player for bragging rights to prove you have overcome a challenge. Puzzle games get harder and harder. Sports games have stats built in so you can get better against tougher teams. Racing games have faster cars and faster opponents so your reaction times have to be more honed as the game gets harder with less room for error. If you want a game with limited challenge stick with color-by-number and connect the dots.

Edit: that was @ Marco



marco
Premium
join:2001-09-14

1 edit
reply to Treebark

said by Treebark:

Why, because that is important to you? Sounds like a bunch of shoulds. Maybe overcoming a challenge in a game is the person's entertainment. Not everyone is the same and likes the same things there boss. Maybe you need to look at your life since you are generalizing.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but it seems like I hit a nerve there, hard to tell with text but your tone definitely seems defensive.

I define healthy entertainment as passive activities for enjoyment. Reading,watching movies or shows, sex, sports etc...
People make a living out of sports are fine, it defines their lives, it becomes their driving force.
A guy who works at a power plant and takes his weekly football game too seriously is creating conflict for himself.
Do you see the distinction?

People naturally have challenges facing them in life that they can't control or avoid.

If you're choosing to make them out of nothing, like from a videogame, you're either ignoring your real problems or your life is unfulfilling.

No joke, this isn't an opinion...this isn't a "different strokes for different folks" kind of thing...

Too many people are using what could be a healthy way for your mind to unwind into something they hide behind...its not good.

Fact remains, I still feel blizzard did the right thing with the LFR.
--


marco
Premium
join:2001-09-14
reply to navymaverick

said by navymaverick:

Agreed. Most games have a hard mode for a challenge. FPSs have online where you try to "kill" another player for bragging rights to prove you have overcome a challenge. Puzzle games get harder and harder. Sports games have stats built in so you can get better against tougher teams. Racing games have faster cars and faster opponents so your reaction times have to be more honed as the game gets harder with less room for error. If you want a game with limited challenge stick with color-by-number and connect the dots.

Edit: that was @ Marco

Just because cigarette companies keep making cigarettes, doesn't justify them, in my opinion. They are a business, they have a demand, they meet it.
--


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
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reply to drew

said by drew:

said by Nightfall:

It is reasons that the elitists are giving that are really sickening. Its as if they believe that only the top 1-2% of raiding guilds should experience the endgame content. Thats a load of crap in my mind.

The LFR system won't remove people from the raiding pool. The people who are all about raiding won't screw with LFR and will find a guild to down the content on a higher difficulty. The loot is better at that level anyway.

I'm not sure where you're extrapolating our argument to say that only 1-2% of raiding guilds should experience the content. That's not true of my belief nor of my argument. It is, however, my opinion, that there should be a modicum of effort to see the content. And I don't mean "faceroll through heroics and BGs to get enough of currency X or Y to get the required ilvl" I mean actually learning to play your class properly. I mean having to enchant your gear. I mean having to actually socialize and field a raid.

The LFR system hasn't removed people from the raiding pool; this is correct. However, you're talking about oranges, rather than apples. The normal+ mode raiding pool has, I suspect, shrunk. This pool was already struggling with the combined gear from 10 and 25 man, as well as specific content challenges between the raid tiers. The addition of being able to see the content outside of an organized raid (and guild in most situations) has, again I suspect, shrunk the pool further. People are naturally lazy. If all you care about is seeing the content, then you're going to take the path of least resistance. These people, while sometimes stellar performers, are often nothing more than warm bodies. The raiding scene in WoW and other games is based around warm bodies. You have half+ the members of the raid as knowledgable and qualified and you have the remainder of warm bodies. These folks are usually qualified enough to move out of the fire. They do mediocre DPS, HPS and often are not familiar with fight mechanics. That's okay though, the non heroic fights are tuned for this.

These people are simply critical to the raid team. LFR has provided them with a way out of the organized raid structure and into something else. This is a net positive for them but a big negative for the other half the raid. In a perfect world, my team of raiders would find the other team of raiders and join up and be on their merry way. I ask each one of you reading this to count the number of times you've seen a successful guild merger on your own realm(s). I define successful as there was little to no lag time in raiding, progression stayed on-course or improved, the guild did not implode shortly there after. That's just the reality of the situation. But nothing in this is binary, really. It's not on or off... it's much more diverse than that.

The MMORPG genre has relied upon dedicated players doing a dedicated task. Where the difference between games comes in is usually the level of dedication required. EQ required an enormous amount of dedication, as did FFXI. Other games like DAoC required less. WoW, not even that much.

We can talk a lot about how the genre has evolved... WoW has been at the forefront of that. Never before has a MMO spanned such an age range. That's a good thing. The issue is that the game continues to slide in the direction of caring less about my desired method of play and more about being a casual player with no real commitment. This directly impacts me. I understand things change in WoW. I just want them to remember the players that helped make the game successful enough to launch it into the straosphere. Throw us a bone.

Actually, Blizzard is remembering the players that helped make the game successful. The 1-2% of the players who are hardcore aren't the players that pay the bills. Its the 98% of the players who are casuals that matter.

Oh, and you aren't forgotten. If you want the best loot, then normal/heroic raids are the way to go. So I still don't see the issue here. Even you said that the LFR hasn't removed anyone from the raiding pool.

Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment. This is coming from someone who used to be hardcore raiding in the game.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


drew
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Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

Good lord. Please actually read the post. Saying that I said that is so wrong.



Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com

said by drew:

Good lord. Please actually read the post. Saying that I said that is so wrong.

From your post....
quote:
I just want them to remember the players that helped make the game successful enough to launch it into the straosphere. Throw us a bone.

So you didn't say that? The players that launched the game into the stratosphere aren't hardcore raiders.

I don't deny that you may have a point, that people who have been raiding just to see content, may in fact leave for LFR groups. Its too soon to tell though if that is going to happen. Right now, normal/heroic raids are still going strong. My brother plays and the LFR hasn't affected his guild in the slightest. Your use of words such as "I suspect" casts a shadow of doubt on your assessment. More time is needed before we can come to that conclusion.

I firmly believe that LFR won't kill off organized raid groups. These groups will still be raiding normal/heroic modes for great gear. These groups will still be looking for the next challenge. For those players who will never make it in those groups, this LFR system will retain those players because they will be able to experience the content without the grind.

IMHO, the only people who are against people seeing the content without the hard work are the elitist raiders. Loot isn't an issue since the best loot is still handed out in the normal/heroic raids. I really do believe that it has to do with an elitist attitude. So far, you or the numerous posts I have read on the WoW forums have only solidified my standing.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to marco

said by marco:

said by navymaverick:

Agreed. Most games have a hard mode for a challenge. FPSs have online where you try to "kill" another player for bragging rights to prove you have overcome a challenge. Puzzle games get harder and harder. Sports games have stats built in so you can get better against tougher teams. Racing games have faster cars and faster opponents so your reaction times have to be more honed as the game gets harder with less room for error. If you want a game with limited challenge stick with color-by-number and connect the dots.

Edit: that was @ Marco

Just because cigarette companies keep making cigarettes, doesn't justify them, in my opinion. They are a business, they have a demand, they meet it.

Did you just totally miss the point? Either that or you just didnt actually care to think about the words you read. Video games ARE a challenge no matter how you look at it. I do not know why the hell you actually post on a forum for a game that has any level of challenge at all if you say that you do not like challenge as a form of entertainment. To say "I am scared to challenge myself because I do not think it to be entertaining. I will stick with listening to music becuse the challenging part has been done by someone else and I can sit back and enjoy." would be a totally acceptablr thing to say. Instead you said:

said by marco:

A guy who works at a power plant and takes his weekly football game too seriously is creating conflict for himself.

and

said by marco:

Games are for entertainment. Using them to feel like you're accomplishing something is unhealthy.

and

said by marco:

People who play games to overcome a challenge need to get a life.

Saying that blizz did the right thing by making the content more accessable is a fair statement and I actually agree with you. But your generalizing and suggesting that I am somehow fucked in the head because I choose to actually better myself in some way through challenge and I actually enjoy it is downright offensive, unacceptable and grossly wrong. Spew your trolling elsewhere unless you actually bring some intelligent arguement to the table.

clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Immer

I have to say, I've read a lot of these arguments on both sides, but I view LFR in a rather different light. I still enjoy normal modes and look forward to hard modes, but LFR is another (most more entertaining way) to get half of my VP for the week. After a week of running them, I'm totally sick of the new heroics. LFR gives me a small chance for some upgrades, and tier/weapon pieces I could never get otherwise, and a break from the normal grind. It's not really "raiding" to me. It's just another way to cap.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to marco

said by marco:

Basically, this boils down to something important:

People who play games to overcome a challenge need to get a life.

Games are for entertainment. Using them to feel like you're accomplishing something is unhealthy. Period.

Blizzard did the right thing by making their content accessible...everyone complaining about it needs to look at their lives.

There simply is no basis for this argument. Overcoming a challenge is why we have competitive hobbies. How else can you explain Golf? In fact, the only way for someone to play video games and yet fit your definition of a balanced lifestyle is if they play SIMS, or webkins.

I know that the crux of your post was the last sentence... and could almost agree with you; however, your supporting arguments were completely off-base. Playing a video game, or sport (RL or game), or assembling jigg saw puzzles are perfectly valid endeavors for personal achievement. Your last statement is only correct if the only reason people are complaining about LFR is that it allows more people to see what previously could only be seen by them.
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego
"You never truly know someone... until you fight them"

Slydermv

join:2010-03-11
Thunder Bay, ON
reply to Immer

Sorry Marco, but plenty of people enjoy competative liesurely activities where they are sports or video games. That dosen't make the rest of their life unfulfilling.

I play golf on a casual level, but when I go play, I want to beat my buddies and improve. I'm never gonna be on the PGA, but I don't enjoy having past times without being proficient at them or attempting to improve.

Maybe some people like throwing bricks in the air all day while they play mens basketball in their respective beer league, but I haven't met one yet.

When I play wow or raid, I want to play my role to the best of my ability with the time I can put into the game, or else, why even bother. Just so I can sit there and role my face over my keyboard while getting carried to shineys. Where's the fun in that.



drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6
reply to Nightfall

Without the initial group of MMO players making the game and raving about it, there never would have been the explosion there was.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Slydermv

said by Slydermv:

I play golf on a casual level, but when I go play, I want to beat my buddies and improve. I'm never gonna be on the PGA, but I don't enjoy having past times without being proficient at them or attempting to improve.
...
When I play wow or raid, I want to play my role to the best of my ability with the time I can put into the game, or else, why even bother. Just so I can sit there and role my face over my keyboard while getting carried to shineys. Where's the fun in that.

I knew I liked you (no homo)
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego
"You never truly know someone... until you fight them"

Slydermv

join:2010-03-11
Thunder Bay, ON

said by Immer:

said by Slydermv:

I play golf on a casual level, but when I go play, I want to beat my buddies and improve. I'm never gonna be on the PGA, but I don't enjoy having past times without being proficient at them or attempting to improve.
...
When I play wow or raid, I want to play my role to the best of my ability with the time I can put into the game, or else, why even bother. Just so I can sit there and role my face over my keyboard while getting carried to shineys. Where's the fun in that.

I knew I liked you (no homo)

Liar. Wanna make out?


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

said by Slydermv:

said by Immer:

I knew I liked you (no homo)

Liar. Wanna make out?

no. you're only playing the game to overcome a challenge... I can't trust you to be mature about it.
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego
"You never truly know someone... until you fight them"


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3
reply to Immer

"We choose to go to the moon. Not because it is easy but because it is hard." -J.F.K.



Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to drew

said by drew:

Without the initial group of MMO players making the game and raving about it, there never would have been the explosion there was.

Without the casual players in the game, or the other 98% today, the game would be stuck with a couple servers and a EVE Online like population base of about 500,000 people.

WoW is trying to appeal to both sides, and I think they are doing a darn good job at doing it.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

Maybe, but maybe not.

At least you understood what I said this time.



Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com

said by drew:

Maybe, but maybe not.

At least you understood what I said this time.

Yup, I understood completely the first time. You just didn't like my response.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

No, you don't. You don't have to agree with me - hardly anyone does on this topic.

But you have shown difficulty in understanding the arugment that I've made.

When you say

said by Nightfall:

Oh, and you aren't forgotten. If you want the best loot, then normal/heroic raids are the way to go. So I still don't see the issue here. Even you said that the LFR hasn't removed anyone from the raiding pool.

After I just said:

said by drew:

The LFR system hasn't removed people from the raiding pool; this is correct. However, you're talking about oranges, rather than apples. The normal+ mode raiding pool has, I suspect, shrunk. This pool was already struggling with the combined gear from 10 and 25 man, as well as specific content challenges between the raid tiers. The addition of being able to see the content outside of an organized raid (and guild in most situations) has, again I suspect, shrunk the pool further. People are naturally lazy. If all you care about is seeing the content, then you're going to take the path of least resistance.

Demonstrates you're not getting it.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory


JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1

drew is so pretty when he gets fiesty.



drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

I look a lot like this



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

said by drew:

I look a lot like this

I was going to post a link to the same thread, lol... got distracted by some chocolate in the office. (literal chocolate..)


navymaverick

join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE
kudos:3

said by Immer:

said by drew:

I look a lot like this

I was going to post a link to the same thread, lol... got distracted by some chocolate in the office. (literal chocolate..)

Wow, and man-love Thursday is still 24 hrs away.


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to drew

said by drew:

No, you don't. You don't have to agree with me - hardly anyone does on this topic.

But you have shown difficulty in understanding the arugment that I've made.

When you say

said by Nightfall:

Oh, and you aren't forgotten. If you want the best loot, then normal/heroic raids are the way to go. So I still don't see the issue here. Even you said that the LFR hasn't removed anyone from the raiding pool.

After I just said:

said by drew:

The LFR system hasn't removed people from the raiding pool; this is correct. However, you're talking about oranges, rather than apples. The normal+ mode raiding pool has, I suspect, shrunk. This pool was already struggling with the combined gear from 10 and 25 man, as well as specific content challenges between the raid tiers. The addition of being able to see the content outside of an organized raid (and guild in most situations) has, again I suspect, shrunk the pool further. People are naturally lazy. If all you care about is seeing the content, then you're going to take the path of least resistance.

Demonstrates you're not getting it.

I really understood that when you said it, and it was filled with statements that were unfounded. There has been no drop in regular/heroic raiding. You only suspect that these things are going to happen, with no real data to back them up, not even on a personal guild level. Have your raids stopped or have you found them hard to fill since the LFR system started up?

Then, on top of that, you sound like an elitist when you say that WoW should be catering to you and your like, the people who "made the game popular". You are right, I don't get the elitist attitude anymore. I used to have that kind of attitude back in the day. Now? Not so much.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


drew
Automatic
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
kudos:6

I've provided anecdotal evidence elsewhere. I believe it was in this very thread when it started months ago. If you want more of it... (but so help me God if you come back and say "we'll that's just your opinion man" or "where's the facts?")

I've been on two medium pop servers since LFR was introduced and a number of guilds that were previously struggling to get to a full clear on normal were no longer raiding normal. They stuck to fielding a 5-8 player squad for LFR. The other people either moved on to "bigger and better" things or now raid LFR exclusively.

A number of people I know on RealID that have never been amazing players now are no longer compelled to be in a "raiding guild" since they don't want to spend the time (read: put in the effort) to get properly enchanted, gemmed and reforged gear. These people are nice individuals but not great players. Before, they had a reason to put in the time. Now they don't.

I've never said this was a bad thing for them. It IS good for them. Now that they can cross-server group to queue for LFR it's even better. I TOTALLY get how great this is for the "casual" player. (Let's not get into the "what's casual?" debate). It really, really is great for them.

My argument is simply that it's really, really not great for the non-casual players. These folks, like myself, are now finding themselves without the necessary "warm bodies" to fill their raids. Whether or not this is a "good game" design is immaterial to my argument.

My hope is that Blizzard will finally say "screw it" and let us cross-server normal mode (heroic too for all I care) raid with RealID friends. This completely solves everyone's problem.

I suspect, since I don't know any bleeding edge (server-by-server, not world) raiding people any longer, that this is less of an issue for heroic raiding guilds.

For lack of a better term...it's analogous to the squeezing out of the "middle class" in WoW.
--
flickr | Of faith, power and glory



JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1

No way, blizzard wants their $25/hit per xfer.



Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3

That's why they made leveling alts so over-the-top easy.