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Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:5
reply to dishrich

Re: [TiVo] TiVo w/no subscription = DTA

»www.tivo.com/abouttivo/policies/ ··· ons.html

»www3.tivo.com/buytivo/tivopricep ··· pup.html

»www3.tivo.com/buytivo/popups/pop ··· ees.html

saratoga66

join:2002-08-22
Saratoga, CA
kudos:1
reply to Red_Rhino
said by Red_Rhino:

This is what I was thinking. Since the first CableCard is free the cost for my CableCard should be $0, since the new Premieres only use 1 CableCard. Not having to pay the $9/mo STB fee, means I should be able to break even on the TiVo box in about a year.

As long as it operates as a HD STB, I can live with the loss functionality of the TiVo (DVR, On Demand, PPV, etc). I was hoping to find someone with this type of set up to validate and see what problems they may have experienced setting this up.

If anyone does have this setup, please let me know.

The cable card is not really free. Your first STB is included in your cable subscription. You can get a free cable card in place of that box not in addition to it. You are required to pay the outlet fee for each STB you have. If you elect to use a cable card instead of Comcast STB you receive a customer owned equipment credit of about $2.50 so your net cost for a cable card device such as a Tivo is about $5.50/mo.


PGHammer

join:2003-06-09
Accokeek, MD
reply to GTFan
said by GTFan:

That is correct - a Tivo without a sub but with a valid Cablecard works fine as an HD STB but nothing else. No DVR, no network capabilities, no guide. Just an STB (with pause/ff/rew of live TV only).

This is a very cheap way to add an HD STB to a house, because you can often find deals on the Premieres for $60-80. Around here Comcast charges $9/mo. to rent an extra HD STB but only $6 net to rent a Cablecard, so the Premiere can pay for itself in a couple of years.

That is, in fact fine.

I have an *existing* HDTV with CableCARD - however, the TV itself is heading south (after six years - 42" plasma). By purchasing a Premiere (and using the existing CableCARD) I pay no more monthly than I am now, and lose no functionality than I use today.

Premieres are currently in the start of the Yule push (while they are $99 from TivoDirect (»www.tivo.com), some resellers - notably Best Buy - have them for less, and in stock).

We have no DVRs currently, and this will be the only Tivo (for now).


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:5
reply to Red_Rhino
Have you thought about a Moxi? Full DVR features and cablecard without the subscription feeshttp://www.moxi.com/us/

dishrich

join:2006-05-12
Springfield, IL
Well there IS a (lifetime) sub fee...it's really no different that paying for a lifetime Tivo upfront.

Also, you DO realize that your "lifetime" Moxi DVR you keep bringing up, is ONLY good as long as Moxi keeps supporting their product. I have MUCH more faith in Tivo being around longer than Moxi will - & when it isn't, you've now got a glorified cable box w/out DVR features. (assuming you are even THAT lucky & that it doesn't simply turn into a brick...)

Ask us folks that have all those Replay DVR's that are now in the same boat, now that the guide service died since last July...


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:5
hmm well i do hope that both companies stay around and you do bring up a good point, but many, die hard TiVo users who have had the product since series 1, like from the tivocommunity forums, have lost faith in the company, either because of lack of software updates, poor hardware performance, or a long list of other things. They feel that TiVo as a company is on the decline. Moxi on the other hand has been purchased a few times with different companies. Digeo was founded in 1999 (originally under the name Broadband Partners, Inc.) by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, with headquarters in Kirkland, Washington. In the same year, Rearden Steel was started by Steve Perlman, founder of WebTV, under a veil of secrecy. In 2000, Rearden Steel was renamed to Moxi Digital while at the same time unveiling a line of media centers designed to bridge the gap between PCs and TVs. Digeo, Inc. purchased Moxi Digital in 2002. Digeo kept its own name but adopted the 'Moxi' name as its product family name. Most of Moxi Digital's staff were kept as well as its Palo Alto offices. Digeo also adopted most of the Moxi hardware, (originally focused on satellite consumer electronics) as well as some of the Linux extensions. These were merged into Digeo's own Linux-based infrastructure and cable-specific hardware, with Digeo's prized user interface, now known as Moxi Menu, on top.

On September 22, 2009, the assets of Digeo, Inc. were purchased by ARRIS Group, Inc., a global communications technology company specializing in the design and engineering of broadband networks. ARRIS is a developer, manufacturer and supplier of cable telephony, video and high-speed data equipment, as well as outside plant construction and maintenance equipment for cable system operators. ARRIS has announced that they will continue to develop and market the Moxi product line to both retail customers and cable operators.


bohratom
Jersey Shore is back again.

join:2011-07-07
Red Bank NJ
reply to dishrich
said by dishrich:

Well there IS a (lifetime) sub fee...it's really no different that paying for a lifetime Tivo upfront.

Yep thats what I did, paid $549 for a new TIVO premiere that includes a lifetime service plan. Thats $50 less then a Moxi.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:5
yet the Moxi has full HD menu's, up to date channel logos, and user accessable hard drive plus support for 6TB hard drive's via eSATA in addition to the fact that it has 3 tuner's standard without extra cost. with a tivo you would need to purchase the elite for $499 to get 4 tuners and thats not including the lifetime subscription.


Master Wolfe

join:2009-04-04
Panama City, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
Click for full size
said by Mike Wolf:

yet the Moxi has full HD menu's, up to date channel logos, and user accessable hard drive plus support for 6TB hard drive's via eSATA in addition to the fact that it has 3 tuner's standard without extra cost. with a tivo you would need to purchase the elite for $499 to get 4 tuners and thats not including the lifetime subscription.

It's early, and I'm barely awake, but went to the Moxi site (www.moxi.com) to get current pricing, and I'll be damned if I can find any prices. Help a sleepy moron out?

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
The Moxi is no longer for sale, and Arris basically doesn't support it any more other than mandatory warranty repair and program guide updates. They bought out Digeo to get the intellectual property for the DVR code, not to sell units at retail. So they sold out the remaining stock and used the tech in new products that they are pitching to the cableCos, because that's the market they're in (gee, sound familiar? See - Motorola and Scientific Atlanta/Cisco).


camper
Premium
join:2010-03-21
Bethel, CT
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Mike Wolf
said by Mike Wolf:

Lifetime subscriptions are expensive dude, ...

 
How so? At this point, my lifetime subscription to TiVo is running at less than $7 per month.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:5

1 edit
reply to Master Wolfe
sure no problem i havent slept either lol i called arris directly to see what exactly is going on and found out that Moxi isn't going out of business, the boxes aren't being discontinued. they are doing a restructuring of that division and operations and sales will continue in janurary.

anyway i found some info on the FAQ. Moxi charges one upfront fee for its HD DVR ($599) though I think when I got mine it was $499.

Red_Rhino

join:2006-03-21
Gainesville, GA
reply to saratoga66
Uh oh, this could be a problem. I am finding out all kinds of fine print after the fact.

I thought as a digital subscriber, you could get the following for free - 1 STB, 1 CableCard, and 2 DTAs. Now you tell me its 1 STB or Cablecard? If I am only going to get a credit of $2.50 for using a cable card, I may as well just get a STB that they support.

Also I find that the DTAs will not display any channels above Digital Starter. I suppose this too is a trade off of $2/mo for a DTA with 100 channels (no HD) or $9/mo for a STB and get all my channels, including HD.

I may just have to face the music and realize that a cable bill of $150/mo is unavoidable. Especially with price hikes coming 1/1/12. Back to the drawing board...

Red_Rhino

join:2006-03-21
Gainesville, GA
I confirmed today that you are correct, you get either a STB or CableCard for free, but not both. Bummer! I guess a STB and 2 DTAs for free is a start.

I also confirmed that the cost of the CableCard is $10/mo, whereas the cost of the STB is $8.50/mo, but will be increasing to $10/mo on 1/1/12 in my area.

Since it will cost the same to have a non-sub TiVo (minus the ON DEMAND, PPV, Guide, etc), as a STB (with all these features), I think its obvious the STB is the way to go.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback it was quite helpful.

mogamer

join:2011-04-20
Royal Oak, MI
reply to bohratom
said by bohratom:

said by dishrich:

Well there IS a (lifetime) sub fee...it's really no different that paying for a lifetime Tivo upfront.

Yep thats what I did, paid $549 for a new TIVO premiere that includes a lifetime service plan. Thats $50 less then a Moxi.

The Tivo premiere dvr is a lot nicer than the boxes that cabelcos supply. But they aren't cheaper to have. Just divide the cost of a unit (with lifetime sub) by the monthly cost of a dvr to see.

That $549 divided by $17 (dvr fee) for example, means that the Tivo pays for itself on the 33rd month. Add in the cable card fee and you can see that having a cableco dvr with an added hdd (that the cableco will replace for free if it goes bad) isn't as expensive as you may think. I have WOW in my area and they charge $13 per month for a HD dvr. So it would take even longer to break even. Tivo's, like HTPC's are luxury products and not cost savings products.

Most cabelcos charge a lot less than Comcast for a cable card, so finding a Tivo on sale and just using it as a second or third stb is a money saver for those systems.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to Red_Rhino
said by Red_Rhino:

I confirmed today that you are correct, you get either a STB or CableCard for free, but not both. Bummer! I guess a STB and 2 DTAs for free is a start.

I also confirmed that the cost of the CableCard is $10/mo, whereas the cost of the STB is $8.50/mo, but will be increasing to $10/mo on 1/1/12 in my area.

Since it will cost the same to have a non-sub TiVo (minus the ON DEMAND, PPV, Guide, etc), as a STB (with all these features), I think its obvious the STB is the way to go.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback it was quite helpful.

I don't know who told you that a CC was $10/mo. but that is completely wrong, it's more like $6 after the card credit (for extra cards, first one is included). And you won't get an HD STB for free, you'll get an SD STB. They'll charge you an extra $9-10 for the privilege of watching HD, but a Cablecard will get every channel and won't cost extra.

You'll find all this out the hard way when you get an HD STB.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to mogamer
said by mogamer:

said by bohratom:

said by dishrich:

Well there IS a (lifetime) sub fee...it's really no different that paying for a lifetime Tivo upfront.

Yep thats what I did, paid $549 for a new TIVO premiere that includes a lifetime service plan. Thats $50 less then a Moxi.

The Tivo premiere dvr is a lot nicer than the boxes that cabelcos supply. But they aren't cheaper to have. Just divide the cost of a unit (with lifetime sub) by the monthly cost of a dvr to see.

That $549 divided by $17 (dvr fee) for example, means that the Tivo pays for itself on the 33rd month. Add in the cable card fee and you can see that having a cableco dvr with an added hdd (that the cableco will replace for free if it goes bad) isn't as expensive as you may think. I have WOW in my area and they charge $13 per month for a HD dvr. So it would take even longer to break even. Tivo's, like HTPC's are luxury products and not cost savings products.

Some misinformation here - Tivos ARE cost saving products, mine have both paid for themselves by now and neither has gone bad, so essentially I'm saving $34 every month. And you can't expand the Comcast Moto DVRs, you're stuck with whatever drive (as small as 160GB, or 20 hours of HD) that they give you. I upgraded both of my Tivos with ease, and if they do break it's not that expensive to fix because 90% of the time it's either the drive or the power supply.

But the main reason to go with a Tivo or Cablecard HTPC is because it runs rings around the Moto junk that Comcast sticks users with here. No way am I going back to that feature limited box.

Yes it's easier to pay Comcast every month, but if you try something else you might find that it's worth it.

mariod

join:2009-06-16
said by GTFan:

Some misinformation here - Tivos ARE cost saving products, mine have both paid for themselves by now and neither has gone bad, so essentially I'm saving $34 every month.

Speaking of misinformation...

Anyroom is $19.95 and a satellite HD STB is $9.25. You're paying $10 for the second cable card.

So you're actually only saving $19.95 a month over AnyRoom DVR and an HD satellite box, and losing the anyroom functionality, while taking on the liability of repairs. After a hefty up front investment.

I don't see how that's a good deal at all.

mogamer

join:2011-04-20
Royal Oak, MI
reply to GTFan
said by GTFan:

Some misinformation here - Tivos ARE cost saving products, mine have both paid for themselves by now and neither has gone bad, so essentially I'm saving $34 every month. And you can't expand the Comcast Moto DVRs, you're stuck with whatever drive (as small as 160GB, or 20 hours of HD) that they give you. I upgraded both of my Tivos with ease, and if they do break it's not that expensive to fix because 90% of the time it's either the drive or the power supply.

But the main reason to go with a Tivo or Cablecard HTPC is because it runs rings around the Moto junk that Comcast sticks users with here. No way am I going back to that feature limited box.

Yes it's easier to pay Comcast every month, but if you try something else you might find that it's worth it.

Like I said, Tivos are better dvr's. No question about that. But how are you saving money? Did you forget the start up costs? Taking monthly cc fees into account, I figured it would take four years to come out ahead using a Tivo compared to Comcast dvr.

Myself, for the kind of money needed for a Tivo "whole home solution", I would rather spend the money on a HTPC with a four-tuner cc device and use Xbox 360 extenders. Pc's and Xbox 360's are more flexible than Tivo's and can do whole lot more. And the more sets you have the the HTPC solution gets cheaper compared to multiple Tivo's.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to mariod
said by mariod:

said by GTFan:

Some misinformation here - Tivos ARE cost saving products, mine have both paid for themselves by now and neither has gone bad, so essentially I'm saving $34 every month.

Speaking of misinformation...

Anyroom is $19.95 and a satellite HD STB is $9.25. You're paying $10 for the second cable card.

So you're actually only saving $19.95 a month over AnyRoom DVR and an HD satellite box, and losing the anyroom functionality, while taking on the liability of repairs. After a hefty up front investment.

I don't see how that's a good deal at all.

No, you're not paying $10/mo. for additional cable cards, it's $6 after the $2.50 card credit. And as I said, Tivo repairs are simple to do. Please read the posts, and enjoy your crap DVRs.

mariod

join:2009-06-16
The first one is $6.50 maybe, but the standard pricing (each area varies) is $10 for each additional cable card. It's mentioned earlier in this very thread: »Re: [TiVo] TiVo w/no subscription = DTA

Many systems then charge $10 for the second outlet.

Enjoy wasting contriving new justifications for wasting your money, but stop misleading everyone else.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to mogamer
said by mogamer:

Myself, for the kind of money needed for a Tivo "whole home solution", I would rather spend the money on a HTPC with a four-tuner cc device and use Xbox 360 extenders. Pc's and Xbox 360's are more flexible than Tivo's and can do whole lot more. And the more sets you have the the HTPC solution gets cheaper compared to multiple Tivo's.

Now this is something I can agree with, if you don't mind messing with PCs. It's not completely straightforward for a lot of folks, and IMO the HTPC + extender experience does not work as well as a couple Tivos. But with the new deals on Cablecard tuners (I just got an HDHomerun Prime for $170) it's a compelling and cheaper alternative to multiple Tivos.

I run both setups in my house, Tivos and WMC7 with Xbox and Linksys extenders. The Tivos are much easier to use and work better overall, but you do get a lot more options with the HTPC.

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to mariod
said by mariod:

The first one is $6.50 maybe, but the standard pricing (each area varies) is $10 for each additional cable card. It's mentioned earlier in this very thread: »Re: [TiVo] TiVo w/no subscription = DTA

Enjoy wasting contriving new justifications for wasting your money, but stop misleading everyone else.

Just stop - you have no idea what you're talking about, and neither does Rhino because he's getting bad info.

First card is free, additional cards are $6/mo after the credit. In some areas, additional cards are actually $1.50/mo. - $2.50 credit so they PAY you to use a card. I have one like that on my bill, so I do know what I'm talking about for the ATL market at least.

mariod

join:2009-06-16
Even if we use your numbers (which are silly since OP said he called comcast and asked, but you insist he's incorrect), you paid ~$1000 up front, and $6 a month to save $21 a month.

So your two tivos had to last repair free for over four years just to break even (without calculating time value of that $1000 investment) plus you don't have access to on demand, don't have anyroom functionality, and when technology changes (ie: Tivo Premiere Q) you don't get to upgrade.

That's really worth having a fancier guide? Really?

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to Mike Wolf
said by Mike Wolf:

sure no problem i havent slept either lol i called arris directly to see what exactly is going on and found out that Moxi isn't going out of business, the boxes aren't being discontinued. they are doing a restructuring of that division and operations and sales will continue in janurary.

Yeah and a user over at AVS called them and they confirmed it was discontinued. Just like Rhino calling and getting conflicting info about CC fees from Comcast.

»www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ··· 21347812

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to mariod
said by mariod:

That's really worth having a fancier guide? Really?

Zzzzz... post again after you've used both in your house. You have no idea what you're talking about.

mariod

join:2009-06-16
said by GTFan:

said by mariod:

That's really worth having a fancier guide? Really?

Zzzzz... post again after you've used both in your house. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Perspective: You need it.


Master Wolfe

join:2009-04-04
Panama City, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
As I mentioned before, I have 2 Tivos, one Premier, and one Series 2 DT, which I just canceled and replaced with a comcast dvr. In my living room, I have the premier and a comcast dvr. The series 2 and now the other comcast dvr are in the back room. To add another Premier would, right this moment, cost me 94.98, and 15/mo thereafter, plus the cable card. That price is with the 'discount'... that's more than I CURRENTLY pay for either box.
The premier is ok, nice features... when they work. I've had it replaced once, and it is still problematic with the green ring freezes, inconsistent interface, and the guide data not always being accurate. Netflix has a better interface integrated into my Panasonic plasma, such as being able to add to my queue. And with the comcast boxes, I have access to VOD, which Tivo has promised, but is yet to deliver. Everyone has their own opinion, but over my 4 years with Tivo, I've been not overly impressed.


Caddyroger
Premium
join:2001-06-11
To the west
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to mogamer
said by mogamer:

said by GTFan:

Some misinformation here - Tivos ARE cost saving products, mine have both paid for themselves by now and neither has gone bad, so essentially I'm saving $34 every month. And you can't expand the Comcast Moto DVRs, you're stuck with whatever drive (as small as 160GB, or 20 hours of HD) that they give you. I upgraded both of my Tivos with ease, and if they do break it's not that expensive to fix because 90% of the time it's either the drive or the power supply.

But the main reason to go with a Tivo or Cablecard HTPC is because it runs rings around the Moto junk that Comcast sticks users with here. No way am I going back to that feature limited box.

Yes it's easier to pay Comcast every month, but if you try something else you might find that it's worth it.

Like I said, Tivos are better dvr's. No question about that. But how are you saving money? Did you forget the start up costs? Taking monthly cc fees into account, I figured it would take four years to come out ahead using a Tivo compared to Comcast dvr.

Myself, for the kind of money needed for a Tivo "whole home solution", I would rather spend the money on a HTPC with a four-tuner cc device and use Xbox 360 extenders. Pc's and Xbox 360's are more flexible than Tivo's and can do whole lot more. And the more sets you have the the HTPC solution gets cheaper compared to multiple Tivo's.

I have a Centon 4 tuner card that I'll sell you. I did not like it to flickering of the screen.
--
Caddy

mogamer

join:2011-04-20
Royal Oak, MI
said by Caddyroger:

said by mogamer:

said by GTFan:

Some misinformation here - Tivos ARE cost saving products, mine have both paid for themselves by now and neither has gone bad, so essentially I'm saving $34 every month. And you can't expand the Comcast Moto DVRs, you're stuck with whatever drive (as small as 160GB, or 20 hours of HD) that they give you. I upgraded both of my Tivos with ease, and if they do break it's not that expensive to fix because 90% of the time it's either the drive or the power supply.

But the main reason to go with a Tivo or Cablecard HTPC is because it runs rings around the Moto junk that Comcast sticks users with here. No way am I going back to that feature limited box.

Yes it's easier to pay Comcast every month, but if you try something else you might find that it's worth it.

Like I said, Tivos are better dvr's. No question about that. But how are you saving money? Did you forget the start up costs? Taking monthly cc fees into account, I figured it would take four years to come out ahead using a Tivo compared to Comcast dvr.

Myself, for the kind of money needed for a Tivo "whole home solution", I would rather spend the money on a HTPC with a four-tuner cc device and use Xbox 360 extenders. Pc's and Xbox 360's are more flexible than Tivo's and can do whole lot more. And the more sets you have the the HTPC solution gets cheaper compared to multiple Tivo's.

I have a Centon 4 tuner card that I'll sell you. I did not like it to flickering of the screen.

I currently don't have cable, I have Dish Network as my pay tv service. So I can't use a cable card device. I must say that my 722K dvr works a lot better than any cableco or ota dvr I've used. But the new cc devices interest me enough to switch back when my contract expires. And since my kids and I are gamers, having multiple Xbox 360's around would be just fine with me.