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BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to sk1939

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

OK, maybe VOIP can beat a cell phone, I know Skype has some of the best quality that you'll get on any sort of "phone". Land lines aren't that great, however, as they are analog and have basically no processing power at the end of the line. The best calls that I have are AT&T to AT&T on the cell phone side...


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to sk1939

Also, why would you have phones in the classrooms? There is no reason to have them, since people are moving in and out of them all the time. My university has the same thing, and it's just a waste of money. As are dorm phone lines, since no one uses them. They should just rip the whole system out.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS

The phones are there for emergencies, and for the instructor to call for services such as Plant Ops, Security, A/V, etc.

Dorm phones are a legacy from the time before cell phones. Why would you rip out a perfectly functional system that's in place?


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

I've literally seen professors need to make phone calls, they don't even notice they are there. They just pick up their cell phones anyways. If they put that money towards getting better in-building cell coverage, we would all benefit.

Well, maybe not rip out, but just unplug and let it go dead. There's no reason to keep paying every month to support a system that no one uses.



Edrick
I aspire to tell the story of a lifetime
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA

I'm guessing you're still in college? I myself only just recently graduated two years ago. However plenty of times in real world situations campuses, companies, government etc... require things to be secured, segmented, installed and maintained even if you don't view them as needed. From the world experience I've had so far what sk1939 has said is completely accurate.

Also an example public schools are required to have some type of hardwire communication in the classroom for the teachers to call to the office. I've seen the hardwired phones used many many times in the two universities I've attended to contact plant staff, call for an emergency or other on campus calls. Why have the teacher be required to save 20 phone numbers into their cell phone when they can just use the phone system in the school and call a local extension.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com


kc8jwt

join:2005-10-27
Syracuse, OH

Edrick is right. I work in a public school and we have a copper plant for phone and our network plants.

Our phone system is a traditional PBX with a VoIP card to call other districts in our consortium. In each classroom we are required to maintain a phone jack, two network drops, and a CATV jack. If we don't maintain them, we can not get money from a state grant designed to maintain them.

The problem we have with it is that AT&T put the jacks in illogical locations such as the back of the room when the teacher's desk is at the front of the room.


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to Edrick

I'm talking higher ed. K-12 makes sense, as the teachers need to be able to communicate with each other, support staff, and the office.

In higher ed, no one would know the numbers anyways unless they are printed somewhere (just as easy to dial on cell), or they Google them and dial them, which would be on their own smartphone anyways.



Edrick
I aspire to tell the story of a lifetime
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA

1 recommendation

said by BiggA:

I'm talking higher ed. K-12 makes sense, as the teachers need to be able to communicate with each other, support staff, and the office.

In higher ed, no one would know the numbers anyways unless they are printed somewhere (just as easy to dial on cell), or they Google them and dial them, which would be on their own smartphone anyways.

It's still far easier to have hardwire, I know plenty of spaces on both campuses where we didn't have cell service or the teacher didn't have a phone, perhaps the computer network was down and they cant get on the intranet. They can pickup and hit 0 be connected to the switchboard.

Alls I'm saying is hardwire is far from dead and will be around for quite sometime.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com

BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

No one uses them. No one wants them. If there's not good cell service, then that's a legitimate issue that needs to be dealt with, either through repeaters or partnering with AT&T and Verizon to come in and install sites to cover deep inside buildings.



Edrick
I aspire to tell the story of a lifetime
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA

1 recommendation

said by BiggA:

No one uses them. No one wants them. If there's not good cell service, then that's a legitimate issue that needs to be dealt with, either through repeaters or partnering with AT&T and Verizon to come in and install sites to cover deep inside buildings.

Well with an attitude like that I don't know how well you'll do in the industry. Cause lots of people use them and lots of people still want them. This installation posted by the OP is a prime example, if no one used them or wanted them why would the university spend all the money?

Cell service is not a valid replacement, wether it be local, state or government requirements or just the institutions requirement. A cell network goes down, especially during emergencies.

What practical experiences do you have where you can make a statement that no one uses it no one wants it other than your personal experience at your campus?

Just like Antenna you might say who the hell would use antenna for TV, lots of people still do.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com

kc8jwt

join:2005-10-27
Syracuse, OH
reply to BiggA

It makes sense to run the cable for everything when your running the cable. It's pain all the way around when you have to go back in and run new cable later. It's cheaper to run all of the cable at once than to run it later.

We're finding that out now as we had network drops out of spec when AT&T wired our building 12 years ago. I had to have fiber run and re-deploy a switch to take care of these issues. Just finished lighting it up yesterday.

Truthfully, I would much rather have a phone in the room. It's a safety issue more than anything. And with VoIP some of the endpoints can be moved from room to room and the extension would follow. You can tie the extension to the MAC address to the handset.


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

kc8jwt, That's absolutely true. Running more cable is always better. That doesn't mean that you need to actually activate it all right off the bat.

No one wants POTS lines that no one uses. Safety? In higher ed, no one even realized the phones are there, or knows if they work or not. Which am I going to use in an emergency? Some wall phone that might not work and no one has used in years, or an AT&T or Verizon smartphone that is a known quantity? I'm picking up my iPhone, thank you very much. I know the call will go through, unlike some crumbly POTS system. Plus, if there are more than a couple of people in a room, there's the built in redundancy of having two carriers, in case one just happened to be suffering an outage that day. That, and if the electricity goes out, who knows what's working and what's not, it's very random as to what's on generators or batteries, but you know AT&T and Verizon have generators that are going to keep things juiced up.



Edrick
I aspire to tell the story of a lifetime
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA

1 recommendation

said by BiggA:

kc8jwt, That's absolutely true. Running more cable is always better. That doesn't mean that you need to actually activate it all right off the bat.

No one wants POTS lines that no one uses. Safety? In higher ed, no one even realized the phones are there, or knows if they work or not. Which am I going to use in an emergency? Some wall phone that might not work and no one has used in years, or an AT&T or Verizon smartphone that is a known quantity? I'm picking up my iPhone, thank you very much. I know the call will go through, unlike some crumbly POTS system. Plus, if there are more than a couple of people in a room, there's the built in redundancy of having two carriers, in case one just happened to be suffering an outage that day. That, and if the electricity goes out, who knows what's working and what's not, it's very random as to what's on generators or batteries, but you know AT&T and Verizon have generators that are going to keep things juiced up.

Without looking what is your campus safety phone number? I've never had an issue with a wired phone system inside a building working or not. Anywho this discussion seems to be going in a circle, everyones got their own opinion I'm just saying when a client asks you to install a system they're going to look at you funny when you go. Shit man what you taking about use that cell phone you don't need no stinkin phone system.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

I'd go with over wire the place for easy expantion

then put phones in all the classrooms as yes if the place has a safty dept then it'll come up if they're worth hiring.

I'd also add wireless AP's and have some wifi cisco phones available


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS
reply to BiggA

Universities require staff members to memorize important numbers for things like Plant Ops and Security, it's part of annual Prof. Development training. Additionally, many of these numbers are listed in the speed dial of the POTS phones.

POTS lines in a well maintained and professional setting will always work. Cellphones are spotty at best, even the iPhone. Installing cell phone repeaters is a costly, and frankly ridiculous proposal since cellphone service is the first to go in an emergency, and rather than dialing an extension (4154), you have to dial a whole number (1-815-518-4154).


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

That's stupid, because you can just google all the numbers, or have students in the class google them. The numbers for the computer people are on the desktop background I think. I've seen professors call them a few times, always on personal cell phones.

Cell phone repeaters are needed for normal cellular use, not just emergencies.

I have no clue what any of the campus numbers are. If there's a real emergency, we have 911, and that would get routed back to our police. If not, I can google any number that I would ever need in under 30 seconds, and click on it on my iPhone.

Cell phones are last to go, as they have some of their own backup power. Anything wire based is really hit or miss.


TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel
reply to BiggA

said by BiggA:

I have no clue what any of the campus numbers are. If there's a real emergency, we have 911, and that would get routed back to our police. If not, I can google any number that I would ever need in under 30 seconds, and click on it on my iPhone.

You call 911 directly, they have to figure out where on campus you are located, which might not always be so obvious.

If you use the landline phone and call security, they will usually be able to provide assistance until the emergency services arrive, as well as guide the emergency services to the location of the incident.

So which is better?


alphapointe
Don't Touch Me
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Socket Internet ..
reply to BiggA

said by BiggA:

Cell phones are last to go, as they have some of their own backup power. Anything wire based is really hit or miss.

WOW! You obviously don't work in the real world. Have you even seen an "emergency"? It doesn't take long to overload and crash a cell site. I'll take wireline over radio any day of the week, and I'm a ham radio operator. It takes a LOT to crash a properly maintained POTS system. At the hospital where I work, we've lost the PRI's for our PBX exactly once in the 10 years I've worked there, and that was for about 20 minutes... the cellular sites that serve the hospital crash or are overloaded on a regular basis. I'd wager most (crybaby Iphone loving) college students don't even know HOW to use a POTS phone...

And this topic has gotten so far off topic... I, for one, would love to see the telco side of this gear (which is quite sexy, I might add... I want one of those weatherproof cabinets!)
--
Boone County Scanner Feed:
»boone.mo.scanamerica.us/

"When the hammer drops, the bullshit stops"

TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel

1 edit
reply to BiggA

said by BiggA:

Cell phones are last to go, as they have some of their own backup power.

Many cell sites only have battery backup, no generator. After a few hours, they go dead.

In fact, I'd be ready to bet that most cell sites in an urban area do not have generators. I've seen generators installed mostly in remote areas where prolonged power outages are more likely.

Oh, and there's also the fact that landlines are considered an essential utility. Cell phones on the other hand, are not. In a big emergency or natural disaster, priority will likely be given to getting the landlines back up and running, before getting cell sites back up.


Edrick
I aspire to tell the story of a lifetime
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA
reply to jmich

I'm throwing in the towel.

Anyways it's a great setup you did there, hope to see more in the future!


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to TheMG

I could tell them where I am. By building name. Same as by landline.

The bigger cell sites are diesel backed-up. We have two cell sites, the bigger and taller one is definitely diesel backed up. Most of the sites in CT are diesel backed up, for AT&T and Verizon. T-Mobile and Sprint don't seem to care, and they don't build shelters for the gear, just little outdoor cabinets.

I'm pretty sure the cell carriers put a lot of effort into keeping their networks running. Well, AT&T and Verizon that is.



Edrick
I aspire to tell the story of a lifetime
Premium
join:2004-09-11
Woburn, MA
reply to jmich

I'm loving this spotty cell service and complete areas without cell service because of the blackout. Even better is yesterday when all those college kids were using their cell service to call people over loading the network. A bunch of the city is still without power or traffic lights. Temp power feeders all over.

Our good ol analog / hard wired systems still work pisser along with our network infrastructure on backup.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

I like my AT&T, but I'll admit, it's Verizon who is always up no matter what happens. They voluntarily have 8 hours of battery backup plus many hours of diesel fuel at every cell site that it's possible. Verizon basically never goes down during power disruptions. I wish AT&T would take a cue and do the same, or out-do Verizon.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS

said by BiggA:

I like my AT&T, but I'll admit, it's Verizon who is always up no matter what happens. They voluntarily have 8 hours of battery backup plus many hours of diesel fuel at every cell site that it's possible. Verizon basically never goes down during power disruptions. I wish AT&T would take a cue and do the same, or out-do Verizon.

Verizon goes out just as often as AT&T does during an emergency. It's not the power that's the issue, it's the amount of traffic. There's a reason that during 9/11, emergency communications ground to a halt, and that during Katrina, the Louisiana government used land-lines and Sat Phones.

BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH

Isn't there priority access for government, aid, and emergency workers?

I am just referencing general, non-emergency power outages. Verizon is rock solid, AT&T goes on the fritz within a few minutes.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10

1 recommendation

There should be, but not on mobile communications.


cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
reply to BiggA

On paper, yes. Telco's are well known for cutting corners and just paying the fines later. (also, there's only so much protected capacity for 911; it can still be swamped.)


Hahausuck
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:2
reply to BiggA

Cabinet based sites can be batteried and genset powered too.

But if you are building a cabinet-only site chances are you are a cheap ass, not willing to drop in an LP or diesel fed genset.

So therefore we go back to your statement.
--
"Saying something in another language that you don't think the other person understands is just saying that you're a pussy and are too afraid to say it in English." --Harddrive


BiggA

join:2005-11-23
EARTH
reply to sk1939

There actually is.

I'm not comparing cabinet and bunker sites, just saying that Verizon has more backup than anyone else.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10

said by BiggA:

There actually is.

On paper like cramer said, just not usually in practice.