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John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6 to alkizmo

Premium Member

to alkizmo

Re: Generator house link project - The progress.

said by alkizmo:

Now i gotta find a way to clean up the fish tape black gunk from my hands. I'm working tomorrow and I'm a financial adviser... can't shake hands like that

Citrus-based cleaners that mechanics use will work fine. It is what the Sparkies use....

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

said by John Galt6:

said by alkizmo:

Now i gotta find a way to clean up the fish tape black gunk from my hands. I'm working tomorrow and I'm a financial adviser... can't shake hands like that

Citrus-based cleaners that mechanics use will work fine. It is what the Sparkies use....

That's sounds womanly.

Do I buy that in a lady store? Or do I spray pledge all over my hands?

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

Premium Member

said by alkizmo:

That's sounds womanly.

Do I buy that in a lady store? Or do I spray pledge all over my hands?

»www.gojo-skilcraft.com/i ··· llon.jpg

Get it at your local automotive supply or department store in the auto section.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

said by John Galt6:

said by alkizmo:

That's sounds womanly.

Do I buy that in a lady store? Or do I spray pledge all over my hands?

»www.gojo-skilcraft.com/i ··· llon.jpg

Get it at your local automotive supply or department store in the auto section.

Jeez that's so girly!

Now all the girls at work will make fun of me to use special lemon scrubs!

You know what? I'll wear my black suit tomorrow. My hands will just look like I went extra black

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3 to alkizmo

MVM

to alkizmo
Looks good so far. The only things I think you missed are to secure the PVC conduit within 3 feet of the LBs to the house. Use two-hole straps made for the conduit. If they are sitting out from the house (and they are), you will need some type of spacer between them and the house, like a small wood block. Also, make sure you have sealed around where the LBs penetrate the walls. Some caulking will be fine. (Oh, and when it warms up, things will look a lot better at the shed with a nice coat of white paint.)
cooldude9919
join:2000-05-29

cooldude9919 to alkizmo

Member

to alkizmo
Why come in so high with the LB on the shed side? Would look better if you came in low then fed pipe on the inside up to whatever height you needed. Sorry if this has been said before and i missed it.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo to whizkid3

Member

to whizkid3
said by whizkid3:

Looks good so far. The only things I think you missed are to secure the PVC conduit within 3 feet of the LBs to the house. Use two-hole straps made for the conduit.

Will do. Though I don't know if it's required for the house LBs, they are not even 3 feet off the ground.
said by whizkid3:

If they are sitting out from the house (and they are), you will need some type of spacer between them and the house, like a small wood block.

I'm not sure I understand.
said by whizkid3:

Also, make sure you have sealed around where the LBs penetrate the walls. Some caulking will be fine. (Oh, and when it warms up, things will look a lot better at the shed with a nice coat of white paint.)

Ya LB's are sealed. Caulk outside, great stuff inside, because for the house wall, they had to go pierce through the protective layer between the masonry and the wood (The layer is some black sheet of fabric). It caused a lot of cold air to enter the basement even before I got through the masonry..

White paint on the PVC at the shed? Good idea. If that won't work, I'll put those vine plants on each side of the door (so it will cover the PVC). Actually there were already vines when I bought the house but I ripped them down
said by cooldude9919:

Why come in so high with the LB on the shed side? Would look better if you came in low then fed pipe on the inside up to whatever height you needed. Sorry if this has been said before and i missed it.

I couldn't go UNDER the shed to make them come up from inside. There were cinder blocks under the shed for its foundation. I didn't want to start digging AND drilling underground

And the reason they didn't come in low:

A - The shed interior is not finished, so there is nothing to protect the wires inside the shed, height is their friend. After all, that shed has my gardening stuff, sharp stuff.

B - While the generator wiring COULD be placed lower, the second raceway had to enter high as to place my GFCIs high, for avoiding chances of water/mud/dirt getting on them and also of damages from moving equipment around.

But as mentioned in my reply to whizkid, there are ways to "aesthetically" improve the appearance.

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3

MVM

said by alkizmo:

said by whizkid3:

Looks good so far. The only things I think you missed are to secure the PVC conduit within 3 feet of the LBs to the house. Use two-hole straps made for the conduit.

Will do. Though I don't know if it's required for the house LBs, they are not even 3 feet off the ground.

Securing the conduit is required within three feet, at most. Make it one foot. Or two feet. Three feet is the furthest you can have the strap.
said by alkizmo:

said by whizkid3:

If they are sitting out from the house (and they are), you will need some type of spacer between them and the house, like a small wood block.

I'm not sure I understand.

You need to securely fasten the conduit to the structure. If there is a gap of 1" between the conduit & structure, you will have nothing but air to screw it to. Or you will have to bend the conduit and it will look crappy. Putting a small wood block behind the strap, screwing the wood block to the structure and the strap to the wood block is the way to go, IMHO.
said by alkizmo:

Ya LB's are sealed. Caulk outside, great stuff inside...

Yes, the conduit has to be sealed inside where it penetrates from a conditioned to non-conditioned space to avoid condensation in the conduit, and to save energy. However, 'Great Stuff' is not a listed conduit sealer, and to my knowledge, not code-compliant. It can prevent the proper heat dissipation from the wiring (which is bad). For residential work, people typically use duct-seal.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

You mean inside the PVC itself? No by "inside" I mean from inside the house.

For now I stuffed a piece of cloth in each hole as I want some loose on the wires while I plug in a box from the inside of the house and make the junction to the romex wires. When I'm done I'll use duct seal or some caulk (If that's ok, I already have a tube).
cooldude9919
join:2000-05-29

cooldude9919 to alkizmo

Member

to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:

said by whizkid3:

Looks good so far. The only things I think you missed are to secure the PVC conduit within 3 feet of the LBs to the house. Use two-hole straps made for the conduit.

Will do. Though I don't know if it's required for the house LBs, they are not even 3 feet off the ground.
said by whizkid3:

If they are sitting out from the house (and they are), you will need some type of spacer between them and the house, like a small wood block.

I'm not sure I understand.
said by whizkid3:

Also, make sure you have sealed around where the LBs penetrate the walls. Some caulking will be fine. (Oh, and when it warms up, things will look a lot better at the shed with a nice coat of white paint.)

Ya LB's are sealed. Caulk outside, great stuff inside, because for the house wall, they had to go pierce through the protective layer between the masonry and the wood (The layer is some black sheet of fabric). It caused a lot of cold air to enter the basement even before I got through the masonry..

White paint on the PVC at the shed? Good idea. If that won't work, I'll put those vine plants on each side of the door (so it will cover the PVC). Actually there were already vines when I bought the house but I ripped them down
said by cooldude9919:

Why come in so high with the LB on the shed side? Would look better if you came in low then fed pipe on the inside up to whatever height you needed. Sorry if this has been said before and i missed it.

I couldn't go UNDER the shed to make them come up from inside. There were cinder blocks under the shed for its foundation. I didn't want to start digging AND drilling underground

And the reason they didn't come in low:

A - The shed interior is not finished, so there is nothing to protect the wires inside the shed, height is their friend. After all, that shed has my gardening stuff, sharp stuff.

B - While the generator wiring COULD be placed lower, the second raceway had to enter high as to place my GFCIs high, for avoiding chances of water/mud/dirt getting on them and also of damages from moving equipment around.

But as mentioned in my reply to whizkid, there are ways to "aesthetically" improve the appearance.

Could you not have came in low, put another set of lb's on the inside of the shed, then some conduit vertically to whatever height you wanted? Obviously too late now but i dont see why this wouldnt have worked. I guess many people wont be back there looking at it anyway so it probably doesnt matter much .

snailspace
join:2000-11-27
Montevallo, AL

snailspace to alkizmo

Member

to alkizmo
Just a thought, how do you plan on venting the exhaust?
Once the shed fills up with exhaust the genny is going to die.
I'm guessing you are going to leave it in there while it's running.
If this has been taking care of then never mind.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

said by snailspace:

Just a thought, how do you plan on venting the exhaust?
Once the shed fills up with exhaust the genny is going to die.
I'm guessing you are going to leave it in there while it's running.
If this has been taking care of then never mind.

Open a window and hope for the best?

snailspace
join:2000-11-27
Montevallo, AL

snailspace

Member

Damn, why didn't I think of that!
Gasp,gasp!!!!

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo to snailspace

Member

to snailspace
Click for full size
said by snailspace:

Just a thought, how do you plan on venting the exhaust?
Once the shed fills up with exhaust the genny is going to die.
I'm guessing you are going to leave it in there while it's running.
If this has been taking care of then never mind.

I will install a small 6hp-8hp muffler (The exhaust on the generator has a bolt connector for that purpose) and vent through a pipe out the shed. I'm thinking from the side of the shed (side that's hidden from view) and not the roof, as the roof would be trickier for me. It will stick out 1 foot from the back of the shed a bit like how furnace exhausts work (side wall and not roof).

I will use metal tubing, I have yet to find where I can buy somethign like than 10 feet long (like the electrical metallic tubing I saw). Otherwise I will just buy the 10 feet long tube and hack-saw it. We're talking about 1/2 inch anyway, no smaller than the current exhaust and will only extend a total of 6 feet with the muffler included, and since there will be no bends, there will be even less back pressure on the engine.

I will also drill two holes on the back corners of the shed's floor. The back of the shed is suspended, so cold air can flow inside. I will put a mesh over the holes to prevent bugs and animals to get inside. Also, one of those holes will allow me to run a chain from the generator to the concrete post supporting the suspended shed.

On the opposite side from where the exhaust will exit, i will install a louvre on the roof side (still part of the wall, you know, the triangle part )

jack b
Gone Fishing
MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod

jack b

MVM

Just because the muffler outlet is half inch, I wouldn't go any smaller than a 1 inch exhaust pipe, you don't want any back-pressure at all.

Also you'll need to maintain a safe clearance to combustibles where the pipe passes through the shed wall.

For example you could use a metal coffee can as a wall thimble with a hole cut in the center of the bottom, to fit the pipe through.
averagedude
join:2002-01-30
San Diego, CA

averagedude

Member

said by jack b:

Just because the muffler outlet is half inch, I wouldn't go any smaller than a 1 inch exhaust pipe, you don't want any back-pressure at all.

Also you'll need to maintain a safe clearance to combustibles where the pipe passes through the shed wall.


For example you could use a metal coffee can as a wall thimble with a hole cut in the center of the bottom, to fit the pipe through.

^^2nd^^
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

49528867 (banned) to alkizmo

Member

to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:

I will install a small 6hp-8hp muffler (The exhaust on the generator has a bolt connector for that purpose) and vent through a pipe out the shed.

Keep in mind if you are going to install an external muffler you will need to add a flexible coupling between the exhaust pipe on the engine and the your muffler, if you don’t the vibration of the engine will eventually rip the exhaust flange out of the cylinder head stripping out the threads in the process.

Wayne
49528867

49528867 (banned) to jack b

Member

to jack b
said by jack b:

For example you could use a metal coffee can as a wall thimble with a hole cut in the center of the bottom, to fit the pipe through.

For a small cost a standard gas vent wall thimble made for the purpose will do the job just fine.

Wayne

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3 to averagedude

MVM

to averagedude
said by jack b:

Just because the muffler outlet is half inch, I wouldn't go any smaller than a 1 inch exhaust pipe, you don't want any back-pressure at all.

Also you'll need to maintain a safe clearance to combustibles where the pipe passes through the shed wall.


For example you could use a metal coffee can as a wall thimble with a hole cut in the center of the bottom, to fit the pipe through.

^^3rd^^

Also, don't put the air intake vent near the exhaust pipe. Best to keep them on opposite sides of the shed. The exhaust fan can be on the same side.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

Anyway for the exhaust of the generator, it is in planning, thanks for the input.

But back to business.

So I mounted the transfer switch.



At the red arrow, with the red semi-circle you'll see the copper ground that goes from the main electrical panel (left panel) to up up up and away to a cold water pipe.

But there was a problem with it, that makes me worry about its long term viability.

COP ROT!! (Is that the proper term?)





I have enough extra bare copper 6AWG from my generator hook up to patch that spot with new cable, but the moron who lived in my house before was some sort of handyman that didn't ask questions for 20 hours before hammering one nail (Like I DO!!!).

That moron painted over the copper cable right from the electrical panel, that's why you see that alien goo with the cop rot, well, that's just beige paint in macro.

Fortunately, he didn't chase the cable to paint IT, so about a meter high, the cable is clean and clear.

However patch up to some good uncovered copper, I'd basically have to open THE NO-NO side of my main electric panel (right side behind that huge kill switch). I'm scared of doing that.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k

Premium Member

I think regular paint remover will clean up that ground wire. It shouldn't be too difficult to do and the wire itself doesn't look damaged.

One thing that is good to keep in mind is to try to reduce the number of bends and loops in the ground wire to as few as possible. Lightning surges have a lot of very high frequency energy in them and making the ground wire as straight as possible will reduce your system's impedance to them. You really don't need lightning surges having trouble finding ground through that line.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

1 edit

alkizmo

Member

said by garys_2k:

I think regular paint remover will clean up that ground wire. It shouldn't be too difficult to do and the wire itself doesn't look damaged.

So the green oxidizing copper isn't anything to worry about? Well.. I hope so, I did bury my bare copper from the generator to the house directly in earth outside the PVC

It just was weird that the rotting copper was only found in that bend where it was squeezed behind the main panel.

Side note - HA! I just realized I could have placed an outdoor GFCI in lieu of the small LB on the house (That's the raceway feeding power TO the shed). Oh well, in spring I'll remove the LB and replace with outdoor GFCI. I mean.. why the hell not

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3

MVM

Yeah, it doesn't look that bad. I agree with garys_2k. You want to 'un-bend' the ground wire so it is making a gradual loop. If at all possible, maybe you could run it straight to where it goes and trim some of the excess (or leave the excess protruding past where its clamped to the water main just in case).

One of your future projects to consider is replacing the outdated fuse panel with a shiny new 42 pole breaker panel. The wiring space is chock full, which is not really a good thing.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

I realized that I can't find a 2-pole 30A pullout block from my electric panel. There is a vacant spot for such block on my panel, and I planned to use that to feed power to my transfer switch.

Now that I REALLY can't find it (Thought the previous owner left it with tons of other garbage of fuses he left), can I resolve to an alternative?

Since I'll be clearing a lot of fuse spaces in my panel because the circuits will be moved to my transfer switch, could I simply use TWO individual 30A fuses on different legs?

I mean sure, I won't have safety measure of forcing both fuses feeding a circuit to be removed at the same time, but it's not like it will be feeding an appliance. The transfer switch itself has master breakers to cut power to itself.

I tried to find a replacement block online, but it's a "CEB PS-230" and either some website sells it for 40$ + shipping, or it's some guy in Toronto listing it on kijiji. It looks hard to find a replacement.


Killa200
Premium Member
join:2005-12-02
TN

Killa200

Premium Member

said by alkizmo:

Since I'll be clearing a lot of fuse spaces in my panel because the circuits will be moved to my transfer switch, could I simply use TWO individual 30A fuses on different legs?

That is how i see most homes around here handle the dryer and water heater loads if they are fused panels and run electric appliances. Usually the old load centers has 2 240 circuits, and handled the main disconnect and the range, which left you splitting the screw in fuses to do anything else 240v. I have no idea if it is code, but if it is not, it has to be some of the more tolerated issues that could arise all considering. I mean even with a two pole disconnect, your not getting tied off protection since the fuses can and will blow off only one leg on certain issues. YOU just have to remember to take the other leg offline when you do work to correct faults.

If you went this route, i'd also make it a point to label the fact that the 2 screw fuses are shared between a 240v load (aka your sub panel)

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

Well if I still can't find the pullout block (It's a big house with hidden places :O ) then I'll have no choice but to do the two fuse thing. If i go that way, I'll probably device some sort of linkage on the two fuses to make it obvious they're together.

However, unlike typical usage of 240V 2-leg circuits, this one isn't going to be generating 240V TO the transfer switch. So it's actually good that one fuse can burn and not the other, that way all breakers in the transfer switch that are on the good fuse will keep on going as they should. If there's any 240V circuit on the transfer switch, then the amp rating of the breaker will be equal or lesser than the two fuses on my main panel.

My only regret is that I can't do 60A. The transfer switch can support 60A, but I'd need a range block which will be just as unlikely to find online. Doing so would have allowed me to almost fully transfer my house circuits to the transfer switch
(20 circuits!!) and when running off the generator, I wouldn't be cutting off parts of the house, I'd just limit my usage. But that's only possible when/if I upgrade my generator to use the two legs from the transfer switch.

One day that electrical panel will be updated, panels are way cheaper than i thought... (but I need to find if there's a way to cut off power before my panel without the help of the POCO )

Updated, not upgraded... 100A is plenty especially considering my next oven will be natural gaz.
alkizmo

alkizmo

Member

Ok I started wiring the transfer switch to the generator. I'll transfer the circuits once I'm sure I have the basics done.

This is the inside of my panel



This is the crappy diagram that came with it (believe it or not, I pulled the image from the official website, couldn't get a clear image)



First thing:
Yes, the generator is connected on the left side while the diagram shows the opposite. I followed what was on the stickers on the front panel plate. It has instructions to load the generator on the left, and utility on the right. Don't want to get them confused.

But yes, there is a slight difference on the wiring for right and left side. They're not mirrors. However i don't think it matters as the difference seems to apply for bonded neutral generators. Correct me if I'm wrong because...

Second thing:
While the stickers on the front plate are reversed, the manufacturer's diagram is not reversed. It's correct. The right side has the 4AWG white cable used as neutral bond to ground.

OK let's get with the questions (Assuming I wasn't wrong thinking it didn't matte which side I took).

Question 1
In the picture of my panel (real pic) you will notice a bare copper cable coming in from the left towards the neutral bond point. That the bare copper tied to the generator chassis. It didn't fit in the ground bus, but that's besides my question

I'm questioning whether I should even tie the generator chassis ground to the transfer switch. According to the diagram, all neutral connections return to the main electrical panel, where the REAL neutral bond is done, as this is where the electrode is connected.

Should I hook up that 6AWG bare copper to my main electrical panel instead?

Question 2
There's the ground bus in the bottom middle. It makes contact with the panel chassis.

The neutral buses do not make contact, they're isolated by plastic holders.

Should I assume that the neutral buses bond to the panel chassis at the top middle where that 4AWG white cable goes?

That 4AWG white cable is also isolated by a plastic holder.

So if there's no bond to the chassis....... how the hell do my circuit grounds return?

Question 3
Seems like the circuit breakers only hold solid if they're in pairs (notice the two under the main breakers).

The third breaker is lonely and loosy. I don't mind buying a 4th breaker, I'll probably need it and even more anyway, this is more of an academic question: Are breakers expected to hold in pairs?

Question 4
What the hell do I do with the ROMEX ground? It's not hooked up to anything on either side (Since it's used as a supply line and not a circuit). On both sides it is close enough to the 6AWG ground cable. Should I just twist it around to that, so that the bare copper cable in the ROMEX is grounded in case there's a meltdown?

Killa200
Premium Member
join:2005-12-02
TN

Killa200 to alkizmo

Premium Member

to alkizmo
The neutral bus and ground bus are supposed to be floating from each other and NOT attached, since this is a sub panel. The romex ground AND that #6 bare to your genset HAVE to be in the ground bus at the bottom. Leave the jumper between the top center lug and the Neutral Bar lug, as that is what carries the neutral from either disconnect to your neutral bar in this sub panel.

The circuit breakers will hold better after the face plate goes back on the panel. The face plate, aside from keeping the wire safe from damage and people while live, also holds the breakers down and from wobbling (that is why you only knock out spots you plan on using, aside from keeping fingers out of the live bus)

That romex ground needs to go to your neutral / ground common bar in the main panel, along with your neutral wire.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

said by Killa200:

The neutral bus and ground bus are supposed to be floating from each other and NOT attached, since this is a sub panel.

That is what I figured. The bond occurs at the main panel.
said by Killa200:

The romex ground AND that #6 bare to your genset HAVE to be in the ground bus at the bottom.

Ok here's the problem: By doing so, they wouldn't be actually grounded to an electrode.

How do I ground the panel chassis?
said by Killa200:

Leave the jumper between the top center lug and the Neutral Bar lug, as that is what carries the neutral from either disconnect to your neutral bar in this sub panel.

I figured that, especially after understanding the diagram showing choices between neutral bonded generators and floating neutral generators.
said by Killa200:

The circuit breakers will hold better after the face plate goes back on the panel. The face plate, aside from keeping the wire safe from damage and people while live, also holds the breakers down and from wobbling (that is why you only knock out spots you plan on using, aside from keeping fingers out of the live bus)

Eh, not such a great panel this one is (says Yoda). All circuit breaker slots are already opened out of the box. Go check a few posts back where I put up a picture of my main electrical panel and transfer switch side by side. I put the face plate up for that picture.

There are a few plastic covers that came with the switch, but they are plastic and not tied to the plate. I'll just buy a 4th breaker, I probably will need 8 in total anyway. I'm planning to transfer most of the house outlets to the transfer switch (no heavy loads though).
said by Killa200:

That romex ground needs to go to your neutral / ground common bar in the main panel, along with your neutral wire.

See, at the beginning of your reply, you told me to ground them to the ground bus at the bottom of the transfer switch, now you changed your mind!

You're fired!

Killa200
Premium Member
join:2005-12-02
TN

Killa200 to alkizmo

Premium Member

to alkizmo
I didn't change my mind, i'm talking about two different sides of the romex,

The seperate ground bar in the sub panel (your transfer switch) gets the ground ONLY from that romex. On the other end of the romex, that goes to your main panel, the ground AND neutral goes to your common bar at the bottom.

That is how you get an electrode ground to your generator, and your chassis of the transfer switch,