So, who says there's no need for unions?

Author	All Replies
noelstrom meh. Premium join:2003-04-07 London, ON	So, who says there's no need for unions? First, the article - »www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011···506.html So, you may recall in May, negotiations between Caterpillar and the CAW broke off, with the company threatening a lock out - going so far as to putting up a fence at the worksite before they were in a legal position to lock out, etc. They ultimately decided to postpone talks for 7 months to cool down. Fast forward to this week. Once again, the company is asking for cuts in wages, benefits and pensions in HALF! This after the parent company posted record profits in the 3rd quarter this year. So, they have shown that they can make money with the current contract in place. The union isn't asking for anything. Their bargaining proposal was status quo - no improvements or raises, and no concessions. They want the existing contract renewed. So, who's being greedy here? Once again, here is a perfect example of a company wanting it's workers to join the race to the bottom. The company has shown that it can make money with the current contract in place, and the local president for the workers have even increased efficiencies in the plant, to make it even better than it was in the spring. So, these workers are faced with a lock out yet again, likely to come just after Christmas. This sickens me. In a job market such as what London has right now, who in their right mind would accept a 50% cut in everything they have right now? Talk about life changing - for the workers and their families. Here's hoping that cooler heads prevail. -- DISCLAIMER: Advice from noelstrom is for entertainment purposes only. noelstrom is not a licensed therapist, lawyer or medical professional. The role of noelstrom may be played by a revolving panel of wise a**ses. Do not taunt noelstrom.
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 12:43:07 ·
elwoodblues Elwood Blues Premium join:2006-08-30 HarperLand Reviews: ·Cybersurf Intern..	said by noelstrom: Fast forward to this week. Once again, the company is asking for cuts in wages, benefits and pensions in HALF! This after the parent company posted record profits in the 3rd quarter this year. So, they have shown that they can make money with the current contract in place. I'm not going to get into an argument, but do they breakout the Canadian results separately? Is the CND company a separate company (it's own profit centre) or simply a division of the US parent? DJ, this is what I was talking about and you dismissed it out of hand in another thread(IN Canpol I believe) -- It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 12:50:22 ·
EUS Kill cancer Premium join:2002-09-10 canada Reviews: ·voip.ms 1 edit	reply to noelstrom Let me ask you a question. You are a business owner/stakeholder. Due to ever increasing future liabilities related to legacy costs, you recognize that your company will not exist as the fallacy of constant growth of markets hits. Your choices are to honor contracts and go bankrupt (almost immediately), or renegotiate pensions to reality, keeping the operations going for a while longer. What do you do? -- ~ Project Hope ~
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 13:06:58 ·
dirtyjeffer Anons on ignore. Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON	reply to elwoodblues said by elwoodblues: DJ, this is what I was talking about and you dismissed it out of hand in another thread(IN Canpol I believe) unfortunately, Noel's post only tells a small part of the story (the "Union's side" of the story is all that is mentioned here). here's the deal, EMD has wanted out for a number of years...it is much like the Ford St. Thomas plant...the company is throwing a 50% cut at the union, knowing full well they will refuse it (obviously)...they can then pack up and say "Well, we gave them an offer, and they refused it"...for the past year+, workers in that plant have been working at the Indiana plant training the workers down there, how to do their job (which is a blatant red flag)...the writing has been on the wall for quite some time...the reason the company wants out is 2 fold...for one, they really don't need the additional capacity as they have the new plant in IN to use...secondly, the workers at the site here make very good money...you can thank the union for the great pay and benefits, but the truth is, they have priced themselves out of a job...while it is obvious the union workers shouldn't accept the 50% offer, the offer itself, as ridiculous as it is, is simply thrown at the union as a slap in the face...it's an unfortunate reality to what has happened to the CAW over the years...it is quite probable that had the wages and benefits costs not grown to such unsustainable amounts of the years, these people would likely still have a job...sadly, unsustainable models will eventually collapse and fail, and we have been seeing numerous examples of that over the past 15 years. it's a shame, because i know a couple of people who work there...to make matters worse, the pension money, handled by the CAW has been squandered and has nothing left...so many of the people who work there, many from the GM Diesel days, have no pension left after putting in their 25-30 years of employment...many of the members have since filed a lawsuit over their pension money, rightfully so...i don't blame the workers, they are great people with a variety of good skills and they do great work at that plant...i lay fault with the union, who continued to take things too far over the years, and helped create this mess...the union boss doesn't care, he'll still make his six figures, but hundreds of Londoners will no longer be employed...so, to reply to Noel's question about "who says there's no need for unions?", i will simply point to the company's other 2 plants, who are both thriving and employing thousands of workers...the article states the company is trying to shave $50k per worker in compensation costs, meaning they are paid about $100k (including all benefits, etc)...perhaps if their pay hadn't escalated to $100k each, they wouldn't be in this position in the first place...and before you jump all over me, no, i am not saying they should make minimum wage with no benefits...the union itself already admitted they aren't looking for more money, just to keep the status quo...well, too late for that, unfortunately. -- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton 1950-2011
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 13:38:27 ·
linicx Caveat Emptor Premium join:2002-12-03 United State Reviews: ·Cass Communicati.. ·CenturyLink	reply to noelstrom I am in the US in CAT country and have been for nearly 70 years. CAT negotiates separately with every union and every local government. (city or town) in the US where they have employees. Is your union strong enough to strike? They can and do in the US. This is when the fences go up and pickets are in front. It can be very ugly. What CAT is doing in the US is honoring retiree contracted benefits. It is also moving some plants to the southern states like South Carolina and Tennessee. Thirty years ago the new hires came in at $25 US per hour with good benefits. Then a doctors office call was $25. Today it is $200. Then they trained employees and bought loyalty because profits were very small but employees were guaranteed a pension after 25-years of service (25-50 and Out). This is in the 80s when the 35-years employees retired they had a small pension but a large benefits package that included insurance and medical. No one dreamed then that medical care and their self-insurance costs would skyrocket 10 times over. As an example before my spouse died our average prescription statement was over $1000US per month and it did not include the $400US out of pocket expenses associated with the illness. Over the last six years the illness cost CAT $72,000 for drugs plus heart surgery and two heart procedures, hospital stays, ER visits, 160 blood tests, ambulance runs sand home medical equipment. As the surviving spouse I receive a reduced pension plus all the same benefits. And most of this is because of a strong UAW union. Everyone who does not belong to a union complains because they do not get the same level of benefits in the private sector. Today CAT is doing something different. New hires are paid a hourly salary closer to the local wage, pensions are 401K, insurance is employee contributed, CAT moved to anti-union states where real estate taxes are lower, city perks are higher and the quarterly profits are healthy. Some of the southern plants are starting to organize. - which is a good thing. If your union will not consider any compromise CAT may move just like they moved out of Chicago and off the CBOT. I am not saying it will. I am saying it is an option for CAT to be seriously considered. Currently CAT has nearly as many employees over seas as it does in America. -- Mac: No windows, No Gates, Apple inside
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 14:11:48 ·
dirtyjeffer Anons on ignore. Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON	a company will do what it needs to survive...if the costs are escalating to unsustainable amounts, the company will either be forced to make cutbacks, or shut the doors...a company will always do what it needs to stay in business...unsustainable compensation packages and business models always have and always will fail...it's just a matter of time. -- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton 1950-2011
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 14:20:35 ·
Wolfie00 My dog is an elitist Premium join:2005-03-12 kudos:4	reply to noelstrom In general I am no fan of unions, and the CAW has over the years done their members a great deal of harm in the auto industry, and others, like CUPE and CUPW, are beyond useless and should be dismantled. But sometimes unions are necessary -- re the title of this thread, no one, including myself, has ever said there's "no need for unions". As a side note, CAT is the company that's been much in the news in recent years over a couple of issues -- strenuously opposing US health care reform as too costly to their bottom line (who cares about the employees' health, after all! ) and threating to pack up and leave Illinois rather than pay higher taxes. A rather exceptional level of self-serving arrogance seems to be in their culture. -- "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" -- a corollary of Murphy's Law "A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 15:29:48 ·
dirtyjeffer Anons on ignore. Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON	i am of a similar opinion to you Wolfie...i think unions can and do serve a good purpose...however, i think they have lost their way over the years, and don't seem to have the true best interests of their members at the forefront. -- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton 1950-2011
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 16:05:00 ·
Thane_Bitter join:2005-01-20 London	reply to noelstrom said by noelstrom: Here's hoping that cooler heads prevail. Doubt it; they don't need the plant and make the product elsewhere using cheaper labour. While London's unemployment levels are high, there are communities in the US which would be happy to give this company free land, wave taxes (and environmentally liability) and even build CAT a shiny new plant just so people in their community can earn a few bucks more then minimum wage. Naturally the retail price of the end product remains the same.
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 16:43:49 ·

dirtyjeffer Anons on ignore. Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON	the plant in London has been on shaky ground for a decade...it's almost gone bankrupt a couple of times...had it not been bought out by CAT, it likely would have.
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 16:48:38 ·
AR Premium,ExMod 2001-04 join:2000-09-21 Toronto, ON	reply to noelstrom Here's my general outlook: If you're a Canadian unfortunate enough to work for a US company, realize this: US companies work with no loyalty to the employees. Except for the top 10-20. That's it. So you need to fight to get as much while you're there and try to move out of that company.
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 17:12:45 ·
Wolfie00 My dog is an elitist Premium join:2005-03-12 kudos:4	Agreed, except a small correction is necessary: quote: If you're ~~a Canadian~~ unfortunate enough to work for a US company, realize this: US companies work with no loyalty to the employees. CAT would rather their own US citizen employees die from lack of adequate health care than impact their bottom line by a fraction of a percent. They'd rather throw 23,000 employees in their own community out of work than pay one percent higher taxes.
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 17:35:11 ·
J E F F Whatta Ya Think About Dat? Premium join:2004-04-01 Kitchener, ON Reviews: ·Rogers Hi-Speed ·Rogers Portable .. ·magicjack.com	reply to noelstrom You know, this got me thinking about the stock markets, RIM, etc. Right now, people in the stock markets -- investors, etc..are heavily betting on Caterpillar. They want heavy returns on this company. What does this have to do with RIM? Well, many of the investors want to break the company up, and using it's poor performance as proof for the need. (despite 35% growth for RIM y/over/y) Why? Because you can make a hell of a lot more money -- as an investor -- breaking up the company rather than earning a few bucks on dividends on a company who's future -- in the USA -- is questionable. You want to know what the problem is now? It's not Caterpillar (per se) nor the union, nor it's workers. The problem is with the way the system is set up now. You have a few at the top, who are extremely selfish, and making millions isn't enough when you can make hundreds of millions. It doesn't matter if a company is profitable anymore. It doesn't matter if hundreds of people will lose their livelihood. What matters now is how much a very few group at the very top make. As others have mentioned, the 'stakeholders' are more concerned about THEIR future than their workers. They believe that if they don't do this, not only will they miss out of millions of dollars of profit and likely won't be owning their own Boeing 747, they convince other that if they don't do what they recommend, these companies will go bankrupt. Of course, there are times that unions go to far too, not saying that that doesn't happen. It does go both ways...but it seems the real problem is just investment greed. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 17:36:25 ·
Wolfie00 My dog is an elitist Premium join:2005-03-12 kudos:4	»People Wondering Why RIM CEOs Still Have Jobs
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 17:39:10 ·
AR Premium,ExMod 2001-04 join:2000-09-21 Toronto, ON	reply to J E F F YEP!!!! Greed is controlled in Canada by the social norms and values of this country (which swing too much the other way IMHO). But in the US......the top layer wants MORE and MORE. Even Gordon Gekko couldn't keep up with the greed once he got out.
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 18:27:22 ·
J E F F Whatta Ya Think About Dat? Premium join:2004-04-01 Kitchener, ON Reviews: ·Rogers Hi-Speed ·Rogers Portable .. ·magicjack.com	said by AR: YEP!!!! Greed is controlled in Canada by the social norms and values of this country (which swing too much the other way IMHO). But in the US......the top layer wants MORE and MORE. Even Gordon Gekko couldn't keep up with the greed once he got out. True. That said, I believe that Jaguar (RIM Investor) is headed by an American and if we talk about Caterpillar, it's an American company and right now Wall Street is banking on making some major cash on it. If you go to "Seeking Alpha" you'll see a lot of talk on Apple (Making money -- I am long APPL) as well as Caterpillar and Sirius-XM. (both long) In order to be "long" you need to keep costs down, you also need to bash other companies (in APPL case, you bash KF and RIMM) -- although they are "long" on Amazon, just not KF (because it can short APPL (which is actually happening)). Something I realized this year, we're no longer controlled by social values, companies, government, etc...we're being controlled by shareholder/stakeholders/investors and Wall Street. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 18:41:55 ·
Savant Premium join:2001-08-12 Toronto	reply to noelstrom You know I respect you Noel, but I couldn't disagree with you more here. A few points... As for 'profit', I think you need to remember a couple things. First off, just because the American parent company is making money, doesn't mean its Canadian operations are. Yeah CAT had record profits in the third quarter, but they also had a dismal 2nd quarter. It's easy to cherry pick an improvement after a downturn. Furthermore, the story notes that they want to bring wages in Canada in line with what they are paying their American counterparts. The American workers receive wages and benefits of $30 an hour, while the Canadian workers receive roughly DOUBLE that. (from your own link) Damn right they want to chop down costs when these folks are making ~$60 an hour in wages/benefits. These workers better be careful. CAT could very well just pull up shop and move those jobs back to the United States, where they would be welcomed with open arms for jobs at the pay they are giving the American workers. -- Attack the words, not the writer...
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 18:59:32 ·
dirtyjeffer Anons on ignore. Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON	said by Savant: These workers better be careful. CAT could very well just pull up shop and move those jobs back to the United States, where they would be welcomed with open arms for jobs at the pay they are giving the American workers. they have wanted to do that for a while now...they have just been riding out the contract...the company knows full well the union isn't going to accept a 50% cut, they are calling the unions bluff simply so they can shut down the plant...and to be clear, i don't think it is fair the workers should be looking at a 50% cut, but when you have year after year of increase after increase, there isn't anywhere to go but down. -- My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. - Jack Layton 1950-2011
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 19:32:51 ·
AR Premium,ExMod 2001-04 join:2000-09-21 Toronto, ON	reply to Savant $60/hour?? Really? Wow....that's $125,000 with benefits? Are you sure?
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 20:05:27 ·
uhh @bell.ca	reply to Savant said by Savant: he American workers receive wages and benefits of $30 an hour, while the Canadian workers receive roughly DOUBLE that. (from your own link) Damn right they want to chop down costs when these folks are making ~$60 an hour in wages/benefits. Last I checked, the current collective agreement was negotiated in good faith between the two parties. Don't even get me started on US wages versus CDN wages. You cannot compare them, so that point is moot.
	to forum · permalink · 2011-12-16 20:08:20 ·

O Canada! > Canadian > Canadian Chat > So, who says there's no need for unions?