dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
3202

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

1 edit

mikedz4

Member

[DTA] New channels on dta?

why won't comcast add channels like espn news, espnu, weatherscan, cmt, gac and a few others to the digital starter pack or just merge digital starter and preferred?

I need a regular stb to watch these channels in the bedroom which costs me an extra $9 a month.

andyross
MVM
join:2003-05-04
Aurora, IL

andyross

MVM

Re: New channels on dta?

If Comcast merged Starter and Preferred, they would basically upgrade everyone on Starter to Preferred, including the much higher price, and lose even more customers.

J Jefferson3
@comcast.net

J Jefferson3 to mikedz4

Anon

to mikedz4
It because Comcast is a business that has the right to make money it is called the Free Market, just like it is for anyone else in the USA that wants to make money!!! Tv is a privilege it is NOT a right, If you do not like the service, grow up like a man, stop crying like a baby, and just quit then, you do not have to be on Comcast, you choose to be on this service!!! Those channels want Money that can not be subsidized by any other level of service!!

By the way in case you did not notice but over the years after new contracts were announced comcast has lower some channels down, digital starter always used to be always 99 and under, now we do have some 3 digital numbers now, so stop complaining, it better than nothing!! Comcast did not have to do this!! we have had the following just last 2 years in My hometown market!!

These changed after the 1st expanded cut (Late summer 2010)
119 Lifetime Movie Network
128 Sprout
157 Hallmark Movie Channel
161 Reelz
162 G4

After 2nd Expanded Cut (Fall 2010)
103 Bloomburg
105 C-Span 3

(Spring 2011)
115 Bio
116 H2

(summer 2011)
111 ID
149 Movie Plex

Just 2 days ago!!
114 BBC

And Possibly More to Come!!!

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf to andyross

Member

to andyross
Or the other way around which would be they upgrade everyone on starter to perferred and keep the starter price.

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4 to J Jefferson3

Member

to J Jefferson3
If I have a DTA I should be able to receive the channels I pay for without having to pay extra for a box.
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678

Member

you should be able to buy the full box with out mirroring or outlet fees like Canadian systems

djdanska
Rudie32
Premium Member
join:2001-04-21
San Diego, CA

djdanska to mikedz4

Premium Member

to mikedz4
said by mikedz4:

If I have a DTA I should be able to receive the channels I pay for without having to pay extra for a box.

It's a DTA, NOT a cable box. It's a digital adapter for older tv's. Completely different things. It's ONLY purpose is to get the expanded lineup. NO MORE. For digital cable, you need a cable box. The premium digital channels don't want their channels on DTA's because the encryption the DTA's use is a LOT weaker than the normal digital cable encryption. (Remember, its only a one way box. incoming, NOT outbound like a normal box)

What your asking for won't ever happen.

andyross
MVM
join:2003-05-04
Aurora, IL

andyross to Mike Wolf

MVM

to Mike Wolf
said by Mike Wolf:

Or the other way around which would be they upgrade everyone on starter to perferred and keep the starter price.

Yeah, right. Like Comcast, or ANY company, would take such a major hit to their bottom-line? That would only happen if many of the channels reduced their carriage fees, which will never happen. As it is, broadcast channels in particular are pushing massive increases, sometimes well over 100%. With Republicans looking to cut even more TV frequencies to sell, some stations may be forced to either go off the air entirely, or somehow go cable/satellite only.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to mikedz4

Premium Member

to mikedz4
said by mikedz4:

If I have a DTA I should be able to receive the channels I pay for without having to pay extra for a box.

No, you always have had to pay for a STB to get access to those channels. The DTA gives you back, for free, what you would have gotten before when there were analog channels: A handful of channels.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf to andyross

Member

to andyross
Hey I agree that its a long shot but it is an option that could happen.
TurboDan
join:2006-06-08
Lavallette, NJ

1 edit

TurboDan to mikedz4

Member

to mikedz4
I see both sides of this argument. I get that the DTA is supposed to "give back" the analog channels, but if the device is technically capable of being authorized to receive whichever channels a customer subscribes to (ie. PAYS through the nose for, month after month) the customer should be able to view those channels.

Cable box rental fees are a product of corporations like Comcast using technicalities and excuses to find loopholes around the spirit of what the FCC intended as far as CableCards, etc. - ie. giving people the ability to watch the channels they PAY for without being under the cableco's stranglehold on devices and their related fees. Really, every television set should come with an industry standard system to provide digital decryption, guide functionality and VOD functionality for which cable providers should be compelled, by law, to support.

Modern cable companies are taking us, in a de facto way, back to the days of renting telephones from the monopolistic telephone company.

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4

Member

You are right about going back to the days of ma bell.

telcodad
MVM
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ

1 edit

telcodad to TurboDan

MVM

to TurboDan
said by TurboDan:

I see both sides of this argument. I get that the DTA is supposed to "give back" the analog channels, but if the device is technically capable of being authorized to receive whichever channels a customer subscribes to (ie. PAYS through the nose for, month after month) the customer should be able to view those channels.

I can sympathize with you, as I felt the same way when I first obtained DTAs to use on my older TVs. I had thought that the DTAs were just simpler, cheaper, limited capability (no channel guide, no VoD, etc.) digital boxes.

Unfortunately, as djdanska mentioned above, the DTAs are only allowed, via waivers obtained from the FCC, to use a weaker, lower-level encryption ("privacy mode") that is used on the expanded basic channels. The full digital boxes, however, can also handle the stronger, higher-level encryption ("conditional access") that is used on the higher-tier channels.

So the DTAs are not technically capable of receiving all the channels that you and I subscribe to.
miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Kissimmee, FL

miscDude

Member

said by telcodad:

said by TurboDan:

I see both sides of this argument. I get that the DTA is supposed to "give back" the analog channels, but if the device is technically capable of being authorized to receive whichever channels a customer subscribes to (ie. PAYS through the nose for, month after month) the customer should be able to view those channels.

I can sympathize with you, as I felt the same way when I first obtained DTAs to use on my older TVs. I had thought that the DTAs were just simpler, cheaper, limited capability (no channel guide, no VoD, etc.) digital boxes.

Unfortunately, as djdanska mentioned above, the DTAs are only allowed, via waivers obtained from the FCC, to use a weaker, lower-level encryption ("privacy mode") that is used on the expanded basic channels. The full digital boxes, however, can also handle the stronger, higher-level encryption ("conditional access") that is used on the higher-tier channels.

So the DTAs are not technically capable of receiving all the channels that you and I subscribe to.

Yup.... Think of it as an all or nothing approach.

The DTA will be able to tune to every channel using the lower encryption. A regular Box also tunes in every channel using that lower encryption because it automatically decodes the "privacy mode" decryption. (Think of privacy mode as the digital equivalent of ROT13 text encryption...).

The higher level encryption is what allows the cableco to provide channels in different service tiers. If they switched everything to privacy Mode to allow a DTA to tune it, then you'd basically be giving everyone with a full box the same channels. In essence, You now only have 1 tier of service that includes all the channels, including every premium channel (HBO/Cinemax/etc), which means instead of paying just $60+ mo for Digital Starter, everone would be paying the $150+ mo for everything.

This also doesn't get into contractual obligations the cableco has with content providers. Some providers actually have in their carriage contracts provisions that require a certain high level of encryption on their content. Privacy mode wouldn't meet these conditions.

markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA

markofmayhem

Premium Member

said by miscDude:

said by telcodad:

said by TurboDan:

I see both sides of this argument. I get that the DTA is supposed to "give back" the analog channels, but if the device is technically capable of being authorized to receive whichever channels a customer subscribes to (ie. PAYS through the nose for, month after month) the customer should be able to view those channels.

I can sympathize with you, as I felt the same way when I first obtained DTAs to use on my older TVs. I had thought that the DTAs were just simpler, cheaper, limited capability (no channel guide, no VoD, etc.) digital boxes.

Unfortunately, as djdanska mentioned above, the DTAs are only allowed, via waivers obtained from the FCC, to use a weaker, lower-level encryption ("privacy mode") that is used on the expanded basic channels. The full digital boxes, however, can also handle the stronger, higher-level encryption ("conditional access") that is used on the higher-tier channels.

So the DTAs are not technically capable of receiving all the channels that you and I subscribe to.

This also doesn't get into contractual obligations the cableco has with content providers. Some providers actually have in their carriage contracts provisions that require a certain high level of encryption on their content. Privacy mode wouldn't meet these conditions.

It actually has nothing to do with that, it has to do with the Separable Security Ban. The DTA is unlawful by the 1996 Telecommunication Act which was not fully enacted until August or so in 2008. Encryption of QAM channels can only be decoded by a separate device, currently CableCard ONLY. The DTA does not use a separate device to decrypt, it uses an integrated method dubbed "Privacy Mode". The waiver granted to temporarily use the DTA even though it is unlawful is in direct exchange to migrate analog channels to digital without losing ability to view at the hardship of the MPVD. The MSO's argued the hardship was too great since an EXTREME lower cost solution was available through the DTA. It was a trade... you get us to digital use everywhere with no loss in ability to view, we'll allow a MUCH lower cost hardware solution to be used even though it violates the 1996 Telecom Act.

DTA's decrypt an encrypted stream delivered over clear QAM channels.

CableCards decrypt an encrypted QAM scrambled channel and the stream inside of it. Cable boxes use CableCards, the same CableCard used in TiVo's, Moxi's, Ceton's... etc. A separate device decrypts, the CableCard.

DTA's cost $40-60 for the MSO's to purchase.
Non-DVR STB's cost between $200 and $300 for MSO's to purchase.

Uncertainty exists at what happens when the waiver expires. It is highly unlikely that the DTA's will have to be "collected", but manufacture and sale of new ones could be banned, just like 2008.

Go FCC!

I disagree with "merging" starter and preferred. One of my largest complaints with Comcast in comparison to competing offers is lack of LOWER tiers available, like FIOS' $40 package or DirecTV/Dish's non-ESPN offerings. Digital Economy just doesn't compete. Upping the channel count and forced price to an even higher tier causes even greater subsidizing of content I wish not to view nor pay for...

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4

Member

so how long until they are recalled and what will they be replaced with?
Actually the cable act of 1996 was supposed to help competition. Instead it allowed cable companies to raise rates at will. Maybe if the FCC/Congress still had control then the rates wouldn't be as high.
Also the subsequent acts were supposed to allow consumers the ability to go to a place like walmart or best buy and buy a box of their own like when cable first came out and there were few cable ready tvs.
Unfortunately none of this has happened either.
neufuse
join:2006-12-06
James Creek, PA

neufuse to mikedz4

Member

to mikedz4
out here our DTA's give you all the starter level channels minus the HD ones and VOD...... not just "what you use to get with analog" you can't even get a DTA without a starter subscription here... all our tears went "100% digital" including locals... not one analog is left (minus test channels)

markofmayhem
Why not now?
Premium Member
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA

markofmayhem to mikedz4

Premium Member

to mikedz4
said by mikedz4:

so how long until they are recalled and what will they be replaced with?

There probably will not be a recall, the replacement is CableCard devices or AllVid depending on how much time passes.

If the waiver is not extended, they will be replaced with nothing and will eventually no longer exist as they break and can not be fixed/replaced, just like the CableCard-less STB's such as the DCT series by Motorola.

By then, the hope of the CEA (more revenue) and MSO's (decreased cost in not having to provide profitless in-home equipment) is AllVid will be here. A proprietary, rented by MPVD, common output interfaced device that will be just as costly to the end consumer for the first few years while furthering the "free market" of business-to-business transactions between CEA and CableLabs; with the hopes that Sat will be forced to play by the same rules; and will also require in-home, consumer-purchased equipment upgrades/compatibility devices to elder equipment...

DLNA is one "great hope" us consumers have. If DLNA is tapped, like HDMI was, as the "official body to develop connection", then consumer devices won't see too much of a cost increase to connect with the little black box in the basement. Ethernet, HDMI, and WiFi with known encryption and security-chip-deep protocols is already common, hopefully, HOPEFULLY, we will be able to use this. If not, everything becomes garbage without a "go-between" something that sits between the TV, PVR, Computer, Xbox, Mac, iPad, etc. and the AllVid. If you have devices that are not DLNA certified and DLNA is tapped, then "extenders" will need to be purchased/leased to use existing equipment.

mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

mikedz4

Member

Will we ever return to like it was when cable tvs first came out with the boxes you can buy or even with new tvs that can decrypt digital cable?
mikedz4

mikedz4 to neufuse

Member

to neufuse
The Cisco areas are all digital. I think i have like 14 analog left.

djdanska
Rudie32
Premium Member
join:2001-04-21
San Diego, CA

djdanska to mikedz4

Premium Member

to mikedz4
Not anytime in the near future. They had tru2way and cablecard but you saw how well that went. Consumers didn't want to pay extra for that feature. Didn't sell well.

There is nothing stopping you from buying your own tivo (You can get them free a lot of times if you pay the tivo fee for 2 years. I got mine that way) and just getting a cablecard. And comcast is eventually going to allow tivo access to it's on demand.

telcodad
MVM
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ

1 edit

telcodad to markofmayhem

MVM

to markofmayhem
From this Light Reading article, it looks like a 3-year waiver to turn on the "privacy mode" encryption in the DTAs was obtained by Comcast in late 2009:

FCC Approves DTAs From Moto, Cisco, Thomson & Pace
»www.lightreading.com/doc ··· d=180850

While this would mean that the waiver should expire by the end of next year (if not extended), this recent article says that Comcast just obtained a "special waiver" to start deploying HD-DTAs:

Comcast HD-DTAs Reach the FCC
»www.lightreading.com/doc ··· d=215351

Don't know how long this waiver is for, but it looks like these will then be provided in place of the current (SD) DTAs.

BTW - Here is the latest spec sheet on the HD-DTA model that Comcast will be using:
»www.motorola.com/staticf ··· 2011.pdf
miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Kissimmee, FL

miscDude to markofmayhem

Member

to markofmayhem
said by markofmayhem:

It actually has nothing to do with that, it has to do with the Separable Security Ban. The DTA is unlawful by the 1996 Telecommunication Act which was not fully enacted until August or so in 2008. Encryption of QAM channels can only be decoded by a separate device, currently CableCard ONLY. The DTA does not use a separate device to decrypt, it uses an integrated method dubbed "Privacy Mode". The waiver granted to temporarily use the DTA even though it is unlawful is in direct exchange to migrate analog channels to digital without losing ability to view at the hardship of the MPVD. The MSO's argued the hardship was too great since an EXTREME lower cost solution was available through the DTA. It was a trade... you get us to digital use everywhere with no loss in ability to view, we'll allow a MUCH lower cost hardware solution to be used even though it violates the 1996 Telecom Act.

DTA's decrypt an encrypted stream delivered over clear QAM channels.

CableCards decrypt an encrypted QAM scrambled channel and the stream inside of it. Cable boxes use CableCards, the same CableCard used in TiVo's, Moxi's, Ceton's... etc. A separate device decrypts, the CableCard.

DTA's cost $40-60 for the MSO's to purchase.
Non-DVR STB's cost between $200 and $300 for MSO's to purchase.

Uncertainty exists at what happens when the waiver expires. It is highly unlikely that the DTA's will have to be "collected", but manufacture and sale of new ones could be banned, just like 2008.

Go FCC!

I disagree with "merging" starter and preferred. One of my largest complaints with Comcast in comparison to competing offers is lack of LOWER tiers available, like FIOS' $40 package or DirecTV/Dish's non-ESPN offerings. Digital Economy just doesn't compete. Upping the channel count and forced price to an even higher tier causes even greater subsidizing of content I wish not to view nor pay for...

(sep Security ban was 7/07... though existing supplies of legacy hardware and retooling manufacturing may have pushed mass deployment of sep security boxes to 2008...)

Oh! Trust me... I'm not for "merging" starter and preferred. I'm saying that based off the ways the DTA's are designed, there is no way to allow all potential channels to appear on them while still offering multiple tiers of service. It's all or nothing.

Comcast could've been stingy, and just allowed DTA's to show the old Analog channels. Instead they decided to allow the full Starter tier. Anything more, and you just need to get a fully featured box like you've always needed for those channels. (Or cablecard....same thing since its what handles the decryption).

I personally do not have a problem with the DTAs. They work for what they were designed to do. They are a decent mid-step to allow Comcast to do what it needs to do in order to advance it's network and while mitigating the migration pain of customers still stuck in an analog world. Are there still areas that Comcast can improve in.... Oh hell yes! Both in it's tech and product offerings. But it takes time to move a ship that big, especially when you are dealing with an established and mature product like cable TV.

What to people like us would be a rather straight forward and obvious thing like a simple guide interface change, can cause mass panic to the general public who have become familiar with their TV service and don't like a lot of change.
neufuse
join:2006-12-06
James Creek, PA

neufuse to djdanska

Member

to djdanska
tivo's cost a whole $79 now... for the standard one

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

....until the sale ends and it returns to the $99 price.
neufuse
join:2006-12-06
James Creek, PA

neufuse

Member

heck $99 is still cheaper then the $300 I paid for the cheapest one 3yrs ago....

nene
@108.15.137.x

nene

Anon

they cost $99 now, but refurbished models are $79 which is still cheap.