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drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew to Mashiki

Premium Member

to Mashiki

Re: Zip Code at pump for gas

A lot of folks have no idea how smartcards work, at all.

It's not enough to know the PIN... the PIN is tied to the chip and effectively "unlocks" or decrypts the contents.

After using multiple smart cards every day, I would have no problem using them to pay for my groceries or my latte.

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

Mashiki

Member

It'd probably help if they started running ads like the interac jobbie that they do up here in canada to explain it. I always likened them to "so simple, your 94yr old grandmother can understand it" commercials.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to drew

Member

to drew
said by drew:

I would have no problem using them to pay for my groceries or my latte.

You'd fit right in with those fumbling around in the Timmies drive-through line with the keypad for their $1.10 coffee then.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

I do like my rewards points!
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to Mashiki

Premium Member

to Mashiki
said by Mashiki:

Would be better if you guys just moved to chipping your cards like we did up here in Canada.

But that would cost money to the card issuers, and is therefore totally unacceptable.
dave

dave to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

Be Credit cards are supposed to be easy and fast to use.

And chip-and-PIN does that.

I have a magstripe-and-signature card in the US, and chip-and-pin in the UK (I go home often enough to make it worth doing this - plus most petrol pumps won't accept Ye Old Magge Strype Cardes). Chip-and-pin transactions are faster, and my card never leaves my hand.

I love that there is no need to sign now if the amount is under $30-$50 depending on the store.

With chip-and-pin, there's no need to sign. Ever.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

I had no idea you were from the UK. This explains so, so many things dave.

Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium Member
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT

Subaru to KrK

Premium Member

to KrK
said by KrK:

This feature is typically activated by the demands of the credit card companies, not the merchants. What typically happens is the station has stolen cards used at the pumps and then chargebacks occur, the station loses the money, and if there are too many of these then the credit card companies will impose this requirement on the station if they still want to take credit cards.

It does cause some problems. Visitors from Canada for example cannot use cards at these pumps. Also fleet cards or cards where companies issue them to employees often don't work either, for obvious reasons. It hurts the stations that have to do it, but they have no choice.

Stations don't like Fleet cards? Why is that?

howardfine
join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

howardfine to Whitecrow

Member

to Whitecrow
said by Whitecrow :

I am Canadian and travel regularly in the US . Whenever I try to use my credit card I am asked for a zip which I dont have . The US is behind the times .

The US has 10x the population and probably 10x the number of cards/people to manage. People complain the about broadband speeds in the US and compare us to 10 sq mile countries or small populations and question why we aren't the same. It's cause we aren't the same. Laws and regulations aren't the same either.

The only time I'm asked for my zip is when I leave my immediate home area or even my state, I think. You can get someone's credit card without knowing their driver's license or knowing their zip. I would think entering the wrong zip would invalidate that transaction. I'll have to try it next time.

No, I'm not always asked for my zip.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK to Subaru

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to Subaru
What?

Stations don't mind Fleet cards. Requiring Zip codes at the pumps can cause problems for Fleet cards because the person with the card may be unfamiliar with the zip code needed. Is it the Home Office's zip code? A fleet terminal? The billing address? Just where IS the billing address? etc etc basically causing the card not to work at the pump.

Stations would prefer not to have to ask for zip codes.

Whitecrow
@charter.com

Whitecrow

Anon



Re: Zip Code at pump for gas
Its a very interesting topic non the less . I had driven to Daytona Beach and back to Canada a couple of months ago . Just a tourist . A very high percentage of gas stations required a zip code . ( 70% ? ) Hotels were no problem . You can max out your card almost anywhere else but you cannot use it to get a gallon of gas .
I started to research why this was happening and most attendants ( not owners ) do not know and it is a pain to them . For more on the story you can Google I 75 magazine and there is an article and work arounds . They don't always work . I did take I 75 interstate going down and a different route coming back , partly I 35 . Florida Tourism is suffering because of this , and perhaps other states as well, but it would seem nothing is changing yet .
One anecdote from an owner was , most were Canadian drive aways , not purchasing gas , ( didn't have a zip code ) He would report them to the Highway Patrol as suspected credit card thieves .. I would think the HP would eventually get tired of his calls when they found out it was a complaint because they didn't have a zip code . When I am in an area for a few days I ask for a gas station that does not require zip codes . The hotels usually know . When I am travelling I guess I must continue to be a suspected criminal because I do not have a zip code , carry cash for my gas , make two trips into the station and hold up other traffic at a busy pump , as well as become a target because of Canadian license plates . Until the US catches up with the rest of the world and starts using PIN and micro chipped credit cards the loss will be in the US pockets unfortunately . At a time when the economy is in a slump I would think these gas pumps could be programmed to accept postal codes from other countries that would match the billing info on the card and not upset people from other countries that have money to spend in their pockets .
Ostracus
join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

Ostracus to peterboro

Member

to peterboro
said by peterboro:

said by Mele20:

Being forced to use a pin for a credit card will NEVER fly in the US.

Yet you have to pre-pay for gas without a peep whereas most of us find it offensive, at least around here.

The pre-pay came about mostly from the days of $4.00 gas and a lot of drive-offs.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

1 recommendation

KrK to Whitecrow

Premium Member

to Whitecrow
The reason is pretty simple if you think about it.

Gas pumps are one of the easiest places for thieves to use stolen cards. Other examples you mentioned like Hotels require fraudster to personally interact with people, maybe even be ID'd. However if a thief has a stolen credit card they can pull up to a pump, no interaction with anyone, they can make sure their face is not seen and they can fill up and leave. No evidence left behind, nothing to sign.... and everyone needs gas.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned) to Ostracus

Member

to Ostracus
said by Ostracus:

said by peterboro:

said by Mele20:

Being forced to use a pin for a credit card will NEVER fly in the US.

Yet you have to pre-pay for gas without a peep whereas most of us find it offensive, at least around here.

The pre-pay came about mostly from the days of $4.00 gas and a lot of drive-offs.

And just like a "temporary" tax measure when the gas price drops they'll keep it around.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

said by peterboro:

And just like a "temporary" tax measure when the gas price drops they'll keep it around.

said by peterboro:

And just like a "temporary" tax measure when the gas price drops they'll keep it around.

Gas will never drop below $4 a gallon here. I see nothing wrong with prepay to stop people stealing gas. In fact, the SAFEST thing is prepay as you don't run the risk of having your credit card info stolen. We've had problems here with that. The only reason I don't prepay each time is because I have been getting triple mileage points on my credit card for gas purchases. That ends on Dec 31 but then another credit card is doing 5% cash back starting January 1, 2012. When I have no offers like these then I will do prepay. I'm going to start going to a full service station though where I don't have to get out of my car at all while there, and where the gas costs no more than the cheapest gas station where I have to worry about my card info being stolen when I insert it, or having to go to the cashier window and prepay, and having no perks like having tire pressure check and fixed, etc.

goalieskates
Premium Member
join:2004-09-12
land of big

goalieskates to Mashiki

Premium Member

to Mashiki
said by Mashiki:

As peterboro said, and yet you're stuck with prepay

Is prepay so awful really? I'd rather do that than give up my zip code without knowing what they're doing with it.

No, really. Things have a tendency to get complicated over time, and the rules get more arcane. At some point the whole mess defeats the original purpose, and time isn't saved and convenience is a memory.

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

Mashiki

Member

said by dave:

But that would cost money to the card issuers, and is therefore totally unacceptable.

That's great. Except the same card issuers already operate in Canada, visa, mc, capital one, and all the rest. So that's pretty much a null argument. They simply rolled out the chipped cards as they expired, and forced merchants to update the technology within 4 years. Worked very well up here.
said by goalieskates:

Is prepay so awful really? I'd rather do that than give up my zip code without knowing what they're doing with it.

No, really. Things have a tendency to get complicated over time, and the rules get more arcane. At some point the whole mess defeats the original purpose, and time isn't saved and convenience is a memory.

Yep. Especially if you don't carry much or any cash at all on you. Cash for the most part in Canada is gone, people still use it. Most people though don't carry more than $50, and use interac cards. Going chipped kills the "zip code" problem altogether, and is faster than walking in, or even prepay.
Ostracus
join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

Ostracus to goalieskates

Member

to goalieskates
Well Prepay does play to the privacy lovers (and cash is a means to that end) out there. Also there is less to go wrong (I'm disputing a gas charge now).
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to Mashiki

Premium Member

to Mashiki
said by Mashiki:

Worked very well up here.

Apparently my sarcastically-expressed opinion of American credit-card companies did not come through.

Chippie
@70.24.182.x

Chippie to drew

Anon

to drew
said by drew:

It's not enough to know the PIN... the PIN is tied to the chip and effectively "unlocks" or decrypts the contents.

So you put some malicious software in the reader, and you can save the decrypted data and the PIN. Then go to town ordering stuff on the Net and by phone.

XyzzyX
@70.24.182.x

XyzzyX to KrK

Anon

to KrK
said by KrK:

Gas pumps are one of the easiest places for thieves to use stolen cards. Other examples you mentioned like Hotels require fraudster to personally interact with people, maybe even be ID'd. However if a thief has a stolen credit card they can pull up to a pump, no interaction with anyone, they can make sure their face is not seen and they can fill up and leave. No evidence left behind, nothing to sign.... and everyone needs gas.

So New Jersey's full-service system is better. You stay in your car, nice and warm and dry, while you "interact" with the attendant, giving him your card, then he pumps the gas.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

jaa

Premium Member

Yes, full-serve in NJ and the lowest prices in the region.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK to peterboro

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to peterboro
When you lose thousands upon thousands to hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in drive offs and gas rips, unfortunately you can no longer just "trust" people to be honest.

The people who switched to early pre-pay lost business to the ones who didn't pre-pay, but these days pre-pay is becoming the norm and is accepted by most REASONABLE consumers.

Even for the rest, it won't be long before the days of "trusting" people to come in after they pumped gas will be gone everywhere and it won't any longer be a "risk" of losing customers. The last hold outs from pre-pay get ALL the gas rippers and drive offs and so as they become the smaller and smaller minority their losses mount quickly and so they will eventually HAVE to switch.

Don't hate the merchant, blame all the thieves.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

said by KrK:

The people who switched to early pre-pay lost business to the ones who didn't pre-pay, but these days pre-pay is becoming the norm and is accepted by most REASONABLE consumers.

We pay substantially more for gas up here, and have since the beginning of time, but I must live in a whole city of UNREASONABLE people as the first and only station to pull the pre-pay BS was run out of town.
Ostracus
join:2011-09-05
Henderson, KY

Ostracus

Member

said by peterboro:

said by KrK:

The people who switched to early pre-pay lost business to the ones who didn't pre-pay, but these days pre-pay is becoming the norm and is accepted by most REASONABLE consumers.

We pay substantially more for gas up here, and have since the beginning of time, but I must live in a whole city of UNREASONABLE people as the first and only station to pull the pre-pay BS was run out of town.

*shrug* Last time I was in Canada the people were the nicest I've ever met, so yours could be the exception.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK to peterboro

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to peterboro
Probably less thieves up there, but the writing is on the wall.

Right now, the stations can't afford to go pre-pay where you are because of consumer backlash and people leaving for the competitors.... but.... it will happen. As losses mount, the stations will switch or face going out of business anyway. If it's a friendly area with few thieves it may take a long time. Around here, it is impossible not to pre-pay and remain in business.

Edit: Actually that's not necessarily true. It would be possible to spend a lot of money on very good security measures and as long as you have an aggressive prosecution of the rippers by police and the court system you could avoid pre-pay for a long time.... but it would take a VERY good security system and "securement" system for the fuel combined with excellent prosecution and large punitive measures. In Canada where you don't face nearly the lawsuit liability risk you do here it's doable, methinks.

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

Mashiki to dave

Member

to dave
said by dave:

Apparently my sarcastically-expressed opinion of American credit-card companies did not come through.

Sarcasm doesn't always translate well Dave. You know that, besides I haven't bantered with you very often or as often as I did when I took my break 4ish year ago.