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to jfmezei
Re: CNOC's Part 1 Filing on the 703/704 tariffsWhat is Teksavvy saying/doing about the transition to aggregated, given their current setup? |
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to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Rogers did show its true colours when it refused to light up a new ISP last summer, claiming it could't welcome it under the old rates and the new interim aggregated syste wasn't ready. This really showed ill will on the part of Rogers. At that point, the CRTC had already ruled that non-aggregated POIs were end-of-life. It isn't that unreasonable or uncommon for a company to refuse new long-term commitments for obsolete products for new and existing customers. |
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 elwoodbluesElwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in |
to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Rogers is fairly smart. By blaming technical issues for all those delays (compared to Bell wanting UBB), it becomes quite hard to have a public outcry from Openmedia or others, and it becomes harder to go to the CRTC to complain about delays because you can't prove that Rogers are creating those delays on purpose.
And for all we know, it could really be incompetence instead of Rogers wilfully delaying everything they can.
In the case of Bell, there were formal taruffs we could (and did) argue about. But in the case of Rogers, those delays are all wishy washy.
Rogers did show its true colours when it refused to light up a new ISP last summer, claiming it could't welcome it under the old rates and the new interim aggregated syste wasn't ready. This really showed ill will on the part of Rogers.
You can prove it very easily, you bring in the vendor, or an outside consultant. Rogers will have to explain what the problem was, and then can be vetted by a third party who is knowledgeable in the field. Of course they'll just lie , so what's the point, there are no repercussions. |
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 andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario |
to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:said by jfmezei:Rogers did show its true colours when it refused to light up a new ISP last summer, claiming it could't welcome it under the old rates and the new interim aggregated syste wasn't ready. This really showed ill will on the part of Rogers. At that point, the CRTC had already ruled that non-aggregated POIs were end-of-life. It isn't that unreasonable or uncommon for a company to refuse new long-term commitments for obsolete products for new and existing customers. The aggregated was months overdue.If you cant go by the tariff you issued it should revert to the old |
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xcimoFibe 50-50
join:2007-11-21
Gatineau, QC |
to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Does anyone know :
ISPs who have announced pricing according to new Rogers TPIA tariffs ?
ISPs who have *begun* to offer/advertise FTTN speeds which didn't do so under the interim pricing ?
I know of at least one ISP who has announced new pricing for Videotron. But knowing about others would be important.
Never heard of them, but thoses guys also published rate for videotron TPIA: » www.gemstelecom.com/inte ··· et-r.asp |
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elwoodbluesElwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in |
to andyb
said by andyb:said by InvalidError:said by jfmezei:Rogers did show its true colours when it refused to light up a new ISP last summer, claiming it could't welcome it under the old rates and the new interim aggregated syste wasn't ready. This really showed ill will on the part of Rogers. At that point, the CRTC had already ruled that non-aggregated POIs were end-of-life. It isn't that unreasonable or uncommon for a company to refuse new long-term commitments for obsolete products for new and existing customers. The aggregated was months overdue.If you cant go by the tariff you issued it should revert to the old Again Andy, no repercussions, so they don't care, what (can?) is the CRTC going to do? |
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andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario |
andyb
Premium Member
2012-Jan-11 9:41 am
CRTC can show it has balls to do something but it wont.Never has.Even with fining Bell a million for spam calling bell probably made 10 million off it so the CRTC wanted a cut |
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to andyb
said by andyb:The aggregated was months overdue.If you cant go by the tariff you issued it should revert to the old The only reason the CRTC has not allowed Rogers to terminate non-aggregated POIs on Feb 1st is to give ISPs who had invested into the non-aggregated scheme prior to that decision two years to get some return on their investments. If Rogers had been forced to extend "legacy POIs" to new entrants, it would likely have been with multiple strings attached such as no non-aggregated capacity upgrades once aggregated-POI becomes available, which makes the new entrant's POI investments worthless as soon as they start needing upgrades. |
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andyb
Premium Member
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario |
andyb
Premium Member
2012-Jan-11 10:44 am
I was refering to the fact that rogers filed a tariff for a non existent POI service.Far as I know it still doesnt exist.What is this? 2 years later or something.Dont sell if you dont have it |
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jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC |
jfmezei
Premium Member
2012-Jan-11 6:08 pm
BTW, the CRTC file fpor the CNOC Part 1: » www.crtc.gc.ca/Part1/eng ··· 0063.htmI think this will start to get populated this thursday (or appear there on friday) when the first comments on what immediate actions the CRTC needs to take for Feb 1. |
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elwoodbluesElwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in |
to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:said by andyb:The aggregated was months overdue.If you cant go by the tariff you issued it should revert to the old The only reason the CRTC has not allowed Rogers to terminate non-aggregated POIs on Feb 1st is to give ISPs who had invested into the non-aggregated scheme prior to that decision two years to get some return on their investments. If Rogers had been forced to extend "legacy POIs" to new entrants, it would likely have been with multiple strings attached such as no non-aggregated capacity upgrades once aggregated-POI becomes available, which makes the new entrant's POI investments worthless as soon as they start needing upgrades. The problem though is that because (as Andy says) there is no aggregated POI, so companies like Teksavvy will keep lighting up more fibre in the existing POI's in order to stay in business. They've just issued stop sell order for about half of Toronto 3 or 4 POI's I think, and due to the huge lead time, they'll swallow up that capacity almost instantly upon allowing sales again. Then what? Rinse repeat? When do they get to recoup their costs? When will Rogers say no more disaggregated POI "upgrades"? and force them into the new one, with it's additional costs. Then how do you manage that? Does user A pay more because they are using an aggregated POI, or do you jack up the price for everyone? It's a major clusterfuck and I honestly see some 18 months from now, Rogers will finally announce that they have the aggregated POI ready to roll, then hell will break loose. |
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Dunlop
Member
2012-Jan-11 7:34 pm
Does Videotron have a better system in place or will similar issues happen once the large influx of reseller orders start using up the pipes? |
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said by Dunlop:Does Videotron have a better system in place or will similar issues happen once the large influx of reseller orders start using up the pipes? Since Videotron had the worst wholesale prices in Canada and possibly the world, their wholesale services have not been put through anywhere near as much stress as Rogers' so that remains to be seen. The potentially scarier part is whether or not Videotron will be able to manage wholesale traffic growth at the node and POI levels... while Videotron has a much cleaner track record of managing their network while they had full control over their market share (same caps and almost same rates for both retail and wholesale), whether or not they will manage to keep it together if they get flooded like Rogers was now that Videotron has almost no control over 3rd-party offers is a whole other ball game. |
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jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC |
jfmezei
Premium Member
2012-Jan-11 11:33 pm
It is easier for Videotron to upgrade their big router at the central POI aggregation point than it is for Rogers to upgrade TPIA infrastructure at each of the 31 POIs in its Nontario network.
So as TPIA grows, they just need to upgrade at one location.
Note that Rogers appears to have delayed things on purpose. Videotron hasn't done that.
Also, with FTTN speeds finally arriving, the rate of defections from DSL to Cable may be going down. |
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said by jfmezei:It is easier for Videotron to upgrade their big router at the central POI aggregation point than it is for Rogers to upgrade TPIA infrastructure at each of the 31 POIs in its Nontario network.
So as TPIA grows, they just need to upgrade at one location. Traffic does not magically jump from the modems to the aggregated POIs, Videotron may also end up like Rogers with having to do node splits, add extra CMTS and beef up the links between head-ends and back-haul to POI regardless of aggregated or regional POIs so most of the work still applies. Only difference is more efficient scaling by adding whole 10Gbps links shared by everyone instead of 100Mbps slices on 1Gbps links. While Videotron's network may be better than Rogers', they may encounter hiccups if they have too many new/upgrading wholesale subscribers jumping on 30/2, 60/3 or 120/20 much the same way Rogers shot themselves in the feet by flash-flooding themselves with the 15-to-25 speed bump they haven't finished recovering from yet. |
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jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC |
jfmezei
Premium Member
2012-Jan-12 1:23 am
Considering how much Videotron grew in the last few years, stealing Bell customers left and right, it shouldn't too be a problem for them to continue the trend.
And remember that a portion of customers will just be switching from Videotron to 3rd party, so it doesn't really create a big change in network load. |
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said by jfmezei:And remember that a portion of customers will just be switching from Videotron to 3rd party, so it doesn't really create a big change in network load. That depends on how many are going to be switching from 2-8Mbps service with 3-50GB/month cap to 30+Mbps service with 250+GB/month cap. This would be an even larger step up than Rogers' but at least it won't be happening overnight. |
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 hm
@videotron.ca |
to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:Traffic does not magically jump from the modems to the aggregated POIs, Videotron may also end up like Rogers with having to do node splits,
This info is a couple of years old, but from what I recall Videotron runs 1/2 the number of people per node than Rogers has. So if this is still true today (and it may not be due to new speeds and HD TV etc etc) they should have the room or at least a safety margin that Rogers did not have. Good question to ask in in the videotron forum and see what the techs have to say. |
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to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:said by jfmezei:And remember that a portion of customers will just be switching from Videotron to 3rd party, so it doesn't really create a big change in network load. That depends on how many are going to be switching from 2-8Mbps service with 3-50GB/month cap to 30+Mbps service with 250+GB/month cap. This would be an even larger step up than Rogers' but at least it won't be happening overnight. I don't expect Videotron to be behind the curve. From what I've seen and heard their tech department is very competent. From speedy POI upgrades with teksavvy to my rock-solid connection at all times I think it bodes well. I think they position themselves as the premium internet brand compared to Bell and IMO their network is managed accordingly. Rogers definitely appears to be more screwy and disorganized. |
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resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON |
to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Note that Rogers appears to have delayed things on purpose. Videotron hasn't done that.
Videotron gave Teksavvy a decent upgrade date, and then had the upgrade up & running a week or 2 BEFORE the deadline they gave Teksavvy. They seem to be MUCH better managed than Rogers. |
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to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:
So does this mean that we FINALLY get to see what's behind some of B#ELL's ###'s ?
Not really. We will only get to see the numbers that they concocted. Seriously, is there anybody here that believes that even in the remote case that we get to see some numbers, those numbers would not be cooked? OF COURSE! they will be. It's just like EPS (earnings per share). The old joke goes by saying that the accountant asked the president (in complete secrecy) what the number should be. Same here. |
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to jp_zer0
said by jp_zer0:I think they position themselves as the premium internet brand compared to Bell and IMO their network is managed accordingly. That was true when Videotron had cable access retail market on lockdown. Whether or not Videotron will manage to uphold the same service now that it has lost the ability to control demand by imposing hefty premiums for higher speeds and caps remains to be seen. |
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to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:Also, with FTTN speeds finally arriving, the rate of defections from DSL to Cable may be going down.
I greatly prefer DSL to cable, but considering that the starting prices for DSL are so horrendous to begin with, then you have to add 10 bucks for the useless dry loop fee and in the end a 10 Mbit DSL ends up costing you as much as 30 mbit cable... The odds are not that good. |
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Dunlop
Member
2012-Jan-12 10:53 am
said by alienzzz:said by jfmezei:Also, with FTTN speeds finally arriving, the rate of defections from DSL to Cable may be going down.
I greatly prefer DSL to cable, but considering that the starting prices for DSL are so horrendous to begin with, then you have to add 10 bucks for the useless dry loop fee and in the end a 10 Mbit DSL ends up costing you as much as 30 mbit cable... The odds are not that good. Yeah it's the dry loop that pisses me off more than anything. I wouldn't have even cared about the $99 charge to upgrade. Now I just have to decide if I take the chance and switch over to cable right away or see what happens in the first month. I am on call most of the year and absolutely need to be able to RDP to work in the off hours. The lack of info from Teksavvy about cable in Quebec has turned from annoying to insulting as the days went by. I'm almost at the point where I will look into the costs of moving my DSL connection over to Ebox |
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 EUSKill cancer
Premium Member
join:2002-09-10
canada |
to globus999
Yep, gotta love absorption rates, no one can claim they are untrue. |
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jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC |
jfmezei
Premium Member
2012-Jan-12 1:11 pm
With Bell seemingly ready to negotiate, it is quite possible that it woul give a better DSL deal if the ISP promises to not make a compelling Cable offer to stop the bleeding of customers from DSL to Cable.
Remember that if Bell is to embrace indie ISPs, it is because they will help Bell regain some market share against Cable. An ISP who continues to move customers from DSL to Cable is less likely to get a sweet deal from Bell. |
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Ott_Cable
Anon
2012-Jan-12 1:41 pm
It is always the "disloyal" person that gets the better deal.
No one is going to give the same raise to someone contented where he/she is at, but they will give one to the person that is leaving. Same is true for the retention departments giving much better deals to defecting customers.
So I would assume an ISP that is at a position who can move customers to the other guys would have a better bargaining position than one who is DSL only. |
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 DavesnothereChange is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada
4 edits |
to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:With Bell seemingly ready to negotiate, it is quite possible that it would give a better DSL deal if the ISP promises to not make a compelling Cable offer to stop the bleeding of customers from DSL to Cable.
Remember that if Bell is to embrace indie ISPs, it is because they will help Bell regain some market share against Cable.
An ISP who continues to move customers from DSL to Cable is less likely to get a sweet deal from Bell.
So it seems only a question of who will blink first at the table, Mirko - or folks such as Rocky/Marc. However, if Bell does not become more competitive in their rates to the Indies (such as by stopping or reducing substantially their $99 FIB hookup extortion, their Dry Loop 'monthly rental', and their BullShit Demarcation repair politics fee - and JUST FIX THINGS for us - like Cablecos ALL do - as well as) by reducing the new CBB rate to something reasonable and not playing business account logins against residential ones with the Indies, then the bleed will continue, AND occur from MORE openings. It could be death by a million paper cuts for Bell, if they do not smarten up about the big picture, instead of continuing to be so shortsighted for the numbers for every next shareholders' meeting.But so much for my/our rhetoric.... Has Bell or any other incumbent published 2011 year-end financials yet, including customer count/churn figures ?Might shed some light on where things really are going, and at what velocity. |
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Ott_Cable
Anon
2012-Jan-12 4:20 pm
Bell seems to be the company that hates its own worker bees and customers. To them, both of them are nothing but a drain on the earning results and nothing else. I think the only reason why they are turning around is that they hate the Cableco too. |
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jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC |
jfmezei
Premium Member
2012-Jan-12 5:09 pm
It's begun... filings coming thorugh. |
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