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cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
reply to tubbynet

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

If we're talking about the same thing, Cisco's "converged network" is a data vlan and voice vlan, so still isolated logical networks. Yes, it's on one cable, and in a world where a desk/office only has one ethernet port, that's a fair plan. However, it's a safer/wiser bet to have more than one loop per drop. That's hard to correct after the fact, but when designing an office, you'd be a fool not to.

You make it sound like copper costs thousands per year just to keep it conducting. That's absurd. 99% of the costs are in the initial installation -- and that's pretty low, actually, compared to the cost of switches, ip phones, etc. Once installed, it's almost zero maintenance. How often do *you* have to re-punch a patch pannel or replace a keystone? In my current office, I've not touched any of it since it was installed ~5 years ago; previous office is the same story. That's been the case going back 20 years -- since we stopped using 10Base-2 that is. I have seen damaged jacks due to improper crimps, and idiots plugging rj11's into rj45's (etc.) To that I say, if you don't break it, you won't need to fix it.

poe-capable switches are dropping in price.

POE switches are f'ing expensive; much more expensive than a non-poe switch. And I suspect they always will be, simply because they can. They're a niche item. Those who really need them will pay the extortion. I refuse to do so, and instead use midspan power modules. (which cost about as much as an unmanaged, non-poe switch. esp. if you get them on eBay.)

As for troubleshooting... time-to-repair urgency depends on the environment. A phone in an air traffic control tower... that's a zero down time thing. A receptionist phone at a car dealership, to them it'd be Very Important(tm) but on the whole isn't critical; I'd put it at the top of my todo list below any other fires. It should be fixed by the end of the day. The receptionist phone at a doctor's office, however, is a bit more important -- people cannot book appointments, just showing up leads to a big mess... And in my office, if a software developers phone isn't working, well it's likely been broken for days before they even noticed, so a few more days won't matter. And what does it take to fix... in 99.9% of the cases with the VoIP phones (SNOM), they've lost their configuration. The remaining 0.1% is a "wiggle the cable" fix.

Many of the enterprises I've known don't like "new" and "current" technologies. They prefer "what we know" and "what works", and that generally means buying several year old devices to match what they already have. They can get very pissy when they cannot have it, too.

Continuing to support POTS is an interesting balancing act. Does a VG224 cost more than upgraded cabling, VoIP phones, and UC licenses? Probablly not. Do you really need a VoIP phone everywhere there's an analog phone? Again, probablly not. (fax machines, postal meters, conference phones, dorm rooms, etc.)


tubbynet
reminds me of the danse russe
Premium,MVM
join:2008-01-16
Chandler, AZ
kudos:1
said by cramer:

If we're talking about the same thing, Cisco's "converged network" is a data vlan and voice vlan, so still isolated logical networks.

not necessarily. the phone can apply 802.1p bits to the actual frame and i can map this into dscp at the access port layer and perform queuing and buffering on these bits -- separate voice and data vlans (while cisco 'best practice'(tm)) aren't necessarily a requirement for proper voice implementation, however, the network is still converged.

You make it sound like copper costs thousands per year just to keep it conducting. That's absurd.

in a small office, yes. however, i've done a lot of work the past two years in medical acute care facilities. because these locations had a lot of modular space for users (i.e. large open floors in the admin areas where cubes were moved/rearranged/added/removed on a nearly quarterly basis and operating rooms that required different equipment during different procedures), the copper plant takes a large beating. while the cost to actually 'fix' the plant is small, because of the requirement for these drops to be live and certified, more often than not, a cabling vendor is kept on retainer for t&m small projects which do range into the thousands of dollars, but is not large enough of an income to justify keeping a certified cabling tech on staff on a full time basis.
when this is coupled with a mixture of previous cabling vendors who have used cut-rate/generic/off-brand materials, users/movers abusing wall jacks during moves of equipment, lazy/careless helpdesk/field services techs performing macd work in the actual idf location, and overall environmental conditions, the cost to maintain infrastructure (while a small chunk of the actual 'it infrastructure' budget) can still take a sizeable about of opex to keep functioning. this is only exacerbated when you have separate physical plants for voice and data (which is how i took your original statement).

POE switches are f'ing expensive; much more expensive than a non-poe switch. And I suspect they always will be, simply because they can.

no. poe switches will be more expensive because they provide additional features that regular switches don't.
a bmw m3 costs more than a ford fiesta -- not because "bmw can" -- but because there are additional features in the m3 that aren't there in the fiesta.

They're a niche item. Those who really need them will pay the extortion. I refuse to do so, and instead use midspan power modules. (which cost about as much as an unmanaged, non-poe switch. esp. if you get them on eBay.)

diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. i've used midspans in some installations that couldn't justify the cost of the switch. however, for most large commercial and enterprise installations, its a non-starter -- the switch must support poe. when you buy in large enough quantities, you can play ball with cisco and/or your cisco partner, believe me. i've worked with customers who have received over 50% off on hardware and support services when purchasing in large quantities.

Many of the enterprises I've known don't like "new" and "current" technologies. They prefer "what we know" and "what works", and that generally means buying several year old devices to match what they already have. They can get very pissy when they cannot have it, too.

your experience has been the exact opposite of mine. when presented the cost of ownership, the roi, and the enhanced features, corporations have jumped on emerging technologies like nexus datacenter switching, ucs for their virtualized compute loads, and upoe-capable poe switches to run their vdi and collaboration devices.

q.
--
"...if I in my north room dance naked, grotesquely before my mirror waving my shirt round my head and singing softly to myself..."

cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9

in a small office, yes. however, i've done a lot of work the past two years in medical acute care facilities...

You're rebuilding your house four times a year and you want to complain about the cost of the plumbing??? Here, they're creating a massive problem that should never be. I guess their cube walls don't have modular data cabling to match the modular power distribution.

(take a page from Vegas... a raised floor allows for redesigned layouts at substantially reduced costs. For Vegas, it complicates security a wee bit, but that's a small price for not having to jackhammer and re-pour floors to move cable runs.)

[edit: I recall a company making modular cube flooring to carry data and power. Makes this sort of situation a non-problem.]

no. poe switches will be more expensive because they provide additional features that regular switches don't.

Manufacturers charge much more for integrated PoE switches because they know people will pay it. (simple economics.) Yes, there's more in there, but certainly not *thousands* more. If I can buy new midspan modules for hundreds, why is the same technology built into the switch suddenly worth 10x as much? 50% off is still 50% screwed over.