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to Mablung
Re: [PvP] I know it's Arena but......I confess to being a griefer to people in everyday life, particularly store clerks.
Some of my favorite ways to be a griefer:
--Placing 2 items on the conveyor belt at the local supermarket, letting them go to the end, then placing the remainder. The clerk will ask if this is a single order, and I say "Why would you ask?", and he will point to the seperation between items, and I point out that I don't control his conveyor belt.
--Asking for a coffee at the local coffee shop. Invariably, they will take my order and say "Is that everything?". To which I reply "Haven't I stopped speaking?"
--On a 4 lane street, pulling into the left side lane to pass a car, then slowing to match that cars speed, thus blocking cars behind me from passing either one of us. Takes considerable balls to remain in this position for >5 minutes.
I'll point out that I do not grief in World of Warcraft, mostly due to not having the skills to do so in the manner described by the original poster of this thread.
However, since I played for a couple of years on a pvp server, I can attest to the fact that some players use innovative and impressive ways to grief other players in game, be it ganking in world pvp, corpse camping, killing opposing faction quest givers, remaining stealthed in an arena (apparently), etc. Blizzard could prevent such things from happening if they wanted to, but they don't, simply because these things keep people playing. Honest players get mad at griefers and come back the next day hoping to get even.
So kudos to Snuffbox. If you do it to me in-game, I'll leave the arena after 3 minutes, just so you know. |
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 your moderator at work
 hidden : Offensive
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 ImmerGentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA |
to Osirusdatank
Re: [PvP] I know it's Arena but......I'm fairly certain snuff is a good guy who does bad things in-game because he lacks other outlets.
Why grief a store clerk? Griefing behind the wheel is just asking to be a victim of road rage reprisal. There are some serious character flaws here... that simply cannot be addressed in this forum... but they really should be addressed somewhere. |
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I thought he was just trolling. Pretty hard to be such a big asshat in real life. |
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ImmerGentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA |
Immer
Premium Member
2012-Jan-16 12:26 pm
said by Goodmongo:I thought he was just trolling. Pretty hard to be such a big asshat in real life.
heh... that depends on your morning commute. I see the double-block "pass" all the time. Many a time have I had to "woosaaaah" something. |
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Holy crap! I have driven in over 40 states and countless number of cities and Omaha is one of the dumbest places to drive. there are two kinds of drivers here in the area of town I live in. The ones from out-of-state that the military brings here who drive...efficient (fast and aggressive at times) and the locals. I can forgive the one guy in the right lane who drives 5 miles an hour under the speed limit for safety. But the guy next to him driving the same speed has no excuse. I know that half of the populace cannot be asshats as to keep us all driving slower than needed so I give it up to being just plain dumb. Prime example just this morning: it snowed last night. Not a lot but enough to keep us all alert. I wanted to go 55 which is the speed limit but I barely got over 45 due to the guy in the right lane being cautious (Ido not blame him) and the guy in the box truck in front of me who for 4 miles matched the 45 mph guy in the right lane while the rest of us stacked behind him.
However, if an individual has to do things like that to be an asshat, I would very much rather they do it in game where it is actually harmless for the sake of safety. It begs the question however: Why do they do it? I doubt that most of them do it to piss people off because as they will never really meet IRL or in a somewhat personable forum. I do feel that most would do it in hopes for an easy win.
Edit: and Mongo, I give you shit but I would much rather you troll here than on the road. |
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cymraegThread Killer
Premium Member
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE |
cymraeg
Premium Member
2012-Jan-17 9:42 am
Navy there was a recent study that showed Omaha has some of the worst drivers in this country, youre welcome. |
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... cannot wait to move back home. |
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 Snuffboxnice irl
Premium Member
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI |
to Immer
said by Immer:I'm fairly certain snuff is a good guy who does bad things in-game because he lacks other outlets. Immer, thank you for the not-so convincing vote of confidence? I personally do not believe it is fair to consider avoiding being brought out of stealth as a "bad" thing. The above list of things Osirus claims to do, despite being funny, I would never do. Aggravating/Exasperating IRL is completely different than "Griefing" in-game trying not to be killed in arena. |
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said by Snuffbox:Aggravating/Exasperating IRL is completely different than "Griefing" in-game trying not to be killed in arena. Completely different in what, consequences? Online in a game there are none aside from someone making a toon to harass you about it. In real life you might get run off the road or punched. Your still doing the same thing with the same intent. |
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ImmerGentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA |
to Snuffbox
said by Snuffbox:said by Immer:I'm fairly certain snuff is a good guy who does bad things in-game because he lacks other outlets. Immer, thank you for the not-so convincing vote of confidence? "Fairly certain" is a big deal when you consider certainty unattainable without ever meeting someone, or at least see them in their element. said by Snuffbox:I personally do not believe it is fair to consider avoiding being brought out of stealth as a "bad" thing.
If you did it once or twice... maybe; however, when you consider what it does to players who are really trying to get themselves rated, or even players who are just trying to knock out Arenas for the guild points... yeah, it's greifing, and all greifing is bad. Stealth in pvp is designed to allow you to "gain the upper hand" on your opponent... not turtle out an arena battle. Yes it is difficult, but so is keeping NASCAR bumper clearances on a busy highway with total strangers. The difficulty is no more laudable. |
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Snuffboxnice irl
Premium Member
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
1 edit |
to Spork35
said by Spork35: Your still doing the same thing First of all, this coming from the guy that got so butthurt that you PM'd/threatened/e-Mailed/name dropped and made an all out idiot of yourself for four days straight and expressing that you and your friends were going to troll me endlessly - Extremely insightful, thank you for your contribution... (For viewer's: he spammed more than 180 pm's over a couple days, many with threatening and negative content. He's still trolling). Ok, now lets compare what Beantown claims to be the "same". This: said by Osirusdatank:--Asking for a coffee at the local coffee shop. Invariably, they will take my order and say "Is that everything?". To which I reply "Haven't I stopped speaking?" Vs this: said by Snuffbox:We never pop out of stealth - we grab Shadowsight and immediately vanish, sap
Lets try again, this: said by Osirusdatank:--Placing 2 items on the conveyor belt at the local supermarket, letting them go to the end, then placing the remainder. The clerk will ask if this is a single order, and I say "Why would you ask?", and he will point to the seperation between items, and I point out that I don't control his conveyor belt. Vs this: said by Snuffbox:We never pop out of stealth - we grab Shadowsight and immediately vanish, sap
Yet again, this: said by Osirusdatank:--On a 4 lane street, pulling into the left side lane to pass a car, then slowing to match that cars speed, thus blocking cars behind me from passing either one of us. Vs this: said by Snuffbox:We never pop out of stealth - we grab Shadowsight and immediately vanish, sap
Protip: One of these things is not like the others. On one hand we have mockery, humiliation, sarcasm, and flat out potentially dangerous circumstances. On the other hand we have.... a computer game, where no one is typing/saying profanity, no one is being mocked, no one is breaking TOS, no one is being put in any form of danger. *Sigh* Beantown... just stop. Mess with the best. |
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Believe me, I'm coming at this very impartially but I have to say one could argue both intent and perception is the same on all accounts given in the comparisons above.
You can argue semantics all day, which you are very adept at, but at the core the intent of the actions and the way they are received by the person / player are most likely exactly the same.
All actions referenced are forms of manipulation, designed to elicit a response and require "skill" to accomplish. In an extreme sense, it's like arguing "you are a more despicable murderer than I am."
The act, in itself, is the issue..not the execution. (pardon the pun, it was on purpose)
But I do agree, if we're going to argue semantics, that doing actions with similiar intent in a game environment and a real life environment are two totally different things all together.
EDIT: What a fantastic discussion by the way. |
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Snuffboxnice irl
Premium Member
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI |
Snuffbox
Premium Member
2012-Jan-18 2:22 pm
said by Arthritis:Believe me, I'm coming at this very impartially but I have to say one could argue both intent and perception is that same on all accounts given in the comparisons above. Well said. said by Arthritis:All actions referenced are forms of manipulation, designed to elicit a response We usually don't get any form of response. said by Arthritis:In an extreme sense, it's like arguing "you are a more despicable murderer than I am." That is quite extreme. Furthermore it's comparing a negative to a negative. I understand what you're trying to put accross, but I don't believe it's a fair comparison. I'm throwing a baseball at a baseball player. (Arena) Osirus is throwing a baseball at store clerk. (Being a jerk to the person serving him) I'm playing a game, slightly different then intended and not harming anyone. That cannot be said about Osirus's comments. So comparing murder to murder is not accurate. |
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| Snuffbox |
to Arthritis
To be clear - I'm not upset. I simply disagree, but understand both sides of the argument to some degree.
Well written by the way Arthritis. |
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ImmerGentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA |
Immer
Premium Member
2012-Jan-18 2:46 pm
said by Snuffbox:Well written by the way Arthritis.
agreed. Isn't intentionally turtleing an arena match similar to intentionally causing wipes on a boss encounter in LFR? Or, to use your baseball analogy, wouldn't be like having a home-team coach refuse to score a tie-breaking run... just to see how long the game will go? Sure, it takes skill... batters MUST hit the ball when a score is needed... but they need to avoid over-scoring. Pitching roster will get strained... on both sides... but the home team coach choosing to redifine the goal of the game doesn't really hide the fact that the spirit of the game is being ignored, even if no "rule" is actually being broken. |
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to Snuffbox
Thank you, and I'm not upset either to be clear. Having honest discussions with opposing points of views is, to me, one of the most energizing and enlighting things you can do. |
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ewave
join:2011-02-01
Brooklyn, NY |
to Immer
said by Immer:said by Snuffbox:Well written by the way Arthritis.
Or, to use your baseball analogy, wouldn't be like having a home-team coach refuse to score a tie-breaking run... just to see how long the game will go? Sure, it takes skill... batters MUST hit the ball when a score is needed... but they need to avoid over-scoring. Pitching roster will get strained... on both sides... but the home team coach choosing to redifine the goal of the game doesn't really hide the fact that the spirit of the game is being ignored, even if no "rule" is actually being broken. +1 Sir. But defeating a team like this is rather easy so I really don't see what the big deal is. |
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Snuffboxnice irl
Premium Member
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI |
to Immer
said by Immer:Or, to use your baseball analogy, wouldn't be like having a home-team coach refuse to score a tie-breaking run... just to see how long the game will go? No, in the above example the coach is gambling with player's well being, or professions. I think it's easy to manipulate our examples to benefit our argument. So I will attempt to move away from examples. Answer this first: Would it not be fair to consider teasing/nagging etc as "griefing" as well? Like I mention above - It's a game and I'm playfully teasing/griefing. I'm not threatening potential jobs, physical harm, mocking, or being sarcastic like all of the previous examples. I am giving someone a hard time, exactly like occurs between friends. |
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 Bodybagger
Premium Member
join:2010-03-30
Saint Matthews, SC |
I'm not replying directly to you Snuff, I just use the qreply button by your name. And Happy B-day on Feb. 20th!
First off RL griefing and ingame (WoW) griefing need to be seperated. The comments mentioned above reflecting RL griefing, or bullying as the PC term seems to be now thanks to the media, is something completely different and should be punished in forms of fines, jail time, or a punch to the face... srsly those are some shitty things to do to people and another reason why I hate people. These forms of bullying on the internet are different from what Snuff is speaking of in Arena. If Snuff was to talk shit, cause physical or emotional harm, or come off as the typical "bully" then yeah he would be in the wrong. When these things happen they fall into the same category as RL bullying. Ok, whatever, you people hopefully understand that.
Ok let's talk about Arena and PVP. For one you enter the arena and/or do pvp at your own risk. You know the consequences and possibilities of either: A) you're going to win or B) you're going to lose. In arena you may not have a chance to do either, but you KNOW this MAY happen. You may get pissed off like lord knows I do at arenas but guess what? You signed up for it when you hit the queue button. You aren't entitled to get a team that you can beat every single time with the same strategy over and over until you have a 2400+ rating. Welcome to PVP...
I may think yeah, that's pretty shitty for them to do. But I've done some shitty things in arena too in order to survive, win, or even drag it out longer just because I enjoy playing in PVP. And if you haven't then obviously you are playing a completely OP team make-up or you haven't really been doing PVP. Is it griefing? Hell no... |
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ImmerGentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA |
to Snuffbox
said by Snuffbox:Answer this first:
Would it not be fair to consider teasing/nagging etc as "griefing" as well? ...I am giving someone a hard time, exactly like occurs between friends. Except that you are not doing it to friends... you are doing it to complete strangers who, for all you know, are really trying to improve their game.... or are trying knock out as many arenas as they can before wife aggro reaches critical mass. playfully teasing/griefing must be reciprocated in some way in order for it to be truly classifiable as "playful". Running a dungeon with guildies and occationally misdirecting/TotT to the healer or swapping out rockbiter to pull aggro from the tank can be playful and quite unexpected. haha, laughs all around. But it's disruptive, and disrespectful in LFD. Your basic sexual harassment versus flirting/joking argument here... said by Snuffbox:I'm not threatening potential jobs, physical harm, mocking, or being sarcastic like all of the previous examples. Man, Osirus really derailed this thread. I hope it was just a failed attempt on his part at demonstrating a logical fallacy by extending it's premise to Nth degree. Otherwise... what a horrible person....Attempting to define an act, by what the act is NOT can be a terribly slippery slope. There will always be something "worse" out there that you "wouldn't do"; thereby minimizing the "harm" your actions may or may not be causing. Ultimately, you and your friends just don't care what affect shadowcleave may have on anyone else, because you've all determined that you wouldn't care, so no one else should. That is further minimized by how much fun you and your buddies are having while doing it. You've probably all thought, "if this actually gets someone butthurt, it's because they are badz anyway and should be doing arenas... because the obvious counter to this is xyz." Such rationalizations are self-serving, and provide no benefit to the other person. Then there's the "It happened to me and I handled it just fine... so should everyone else" argument. I had a rather crass buddy of mine refute such arguments by saying, "I was molested by a same-sex cousin and I grew up just fine... so does that mean I get to touch little boys now?" I know... rough example... btw, i'm just arguing my point, intellectually. not getting heated over this or anything. |
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Would it not be like leaving a loot window open on LFR simply to outwait a person because you want the loot more than they do? Only this requires skill to keep the finality from occuring. |
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Snuffboxnice irl
Premium Member
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI |
Snuffbox
Premium Member
2012-Jan-18 6:56 pm
said by navymaverick:Would it not be like leaving a loot window open on LFR simply to outwait a person because you want the loot more than they do? Only this requires skill to keep the finality from occuring.
No. Lets move away from examples/scenarios because they largely skewed currently. |
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| Snuffbox |
to Immer
Immergruen - I feel like much of what you're saying is projecting. I can break some of the things down specifically if necessary.
However, the general basis I agree with. There are selfish aspects of Shadowcleave because as you said, we "don't care what affect shadowcleave may have on anyone else" - true.
We don't care. But be fair and put it in perspective - This is in-game, I ran Beast Cleave for awhile before it was nerfed. It was massively OP and required close to no skill. Anyone NOT running Beast Cleave hated it.Similarly, I didn't care what other people thought.
Should Beast Cleave be under similar scrutiny? It's just as selfish, people disliked it and it caused more people to logoff their server and flame us then Shadowcleave even does... |
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ImmerGentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA |
Immer
Premium Member
2012-Jan-18 9:56 pm
running an OP comp is very much a part of Arena PVP in WoW. The goal is to stomp out your opponents. There is no way it can be considered griefing.
Queuing up for Arena battles with the intent of dragging out a battle as long as possible by avoiding combat is greifing because it is not what Arena combat was designed for.
Now, if you guys normally only make a battle last an extra 5 min doing that... /meh. but the OP was talking about a bugged out match that went on for over an hour... griefing... but maybe I've held on to that time frame too tightly. How long do you guys normally drag out a match? I'll warn you now, anything over 10min of avoided combat in an arena match would disgust me. |
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Snuffboxnice irl
Premium Member
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI |
Snuffbox
Premium Member
2012-Jan-19 10:29 am
said by Immer: anything over 10min of avoided combat in an arena match would disgust me.
Consider yourself disgusted. However, that's a pretty harsh and unfair judgement. But I won't rehash what we've already discussed. |
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