 JtmoPremium
join:2001-05-20
Novato, CA | Bag bans and recycling Now that the sky is falling folks have eliminated grocery bags, I find I have no brown bags for recycling.
Since the early 80's I recycled, when they started taking paper, I then put it in the brown grocey bags to put in the blue bin.
Just threw paper in the trash just now as I am out of bags to put next to my desk.
I guess I will need to come up with another container to keep at the desk, likely one made of a lot of Chinese imported plastic to put my paper in 
Going to run out of plastic bags soon to put my car recycling (soda/water bottles) and garbage in. Guess I will then just start throwing away my car recycling in the trash and throw the trash on the freeway.......... |
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 shortcktWatchen Das Blinken LightsPremium
join:2000-12-05
Tenant Hell | Yes, because compared to the reams and reams of paper most offices in this country consume, the paper grocery bags are going to put a real dent in our supply of Christmas trees!
To be fair however, most grocery stores around here have paper bags for the asking. Trader Joes surprisingly still uses paper, and the good ones with handles too! |
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 yj4x4Still in love with Obama?Premium
join:2002-09-18
Whittier, CA | reply to Jtmo
This whole thing is stupid. By my house there is one market (county) where you have to use paper. Across the street is another market (city) where you can still get plastic. Since I ride a motorcycle, the plastic store is now getting all my business. |
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 GizyHave you thanked a soldier today?Premium
join:2002-08-26
PNW
kudos:1 | reply to Jtmo
While I can understand the logic of banning plastic bags, are you saying Novato has banned *ALL* bags except for 'bring your own'?
Can't wait to hear the logic on this one.
Boise Cascade, International Paper and Weyerhaeuser, among others, plant entire forests for the sole purpose of harvesting timber. Some for wood products, some for paper. They aren't harvesting Timmy's Christmas tree to make my grocery bag, and they are putting a lot of people to work and keeping communities alive and viable. Those people and communities just don't happen to all be in California.
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JtmoPremium
join:2001-05-20
Novato, CA | reply to Jtmo
Novato is still OK, but like Whittier, if you happen to be in the County vs. City, no bag. Like Mill Valley, at the freeway= no bag=County whereas downtown Mill Valley you get a bag a mile away.
Same thing anywhere in San Francisco or San Jose.
So, are you supposed to put you dripping raw chicken (we all know those containers never leak) in the reuseable bag that you will then use for vegetables? |
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GizyHave you thanked a soldier today?Premium
join:2002-08-26
PNW
kudos:1 | Portland has the same county vs. city issue, but it's plastic or not, not a bag or not.
Vote with your wallet. It will hurt the tax revenue eventually. |
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 dogmaXYZPremium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1 | reply to Gizy
Like everything in oh-so sunny California, it's a tax.
First off, as of 1/1/2012 in the unincorporated areas of Marin County, This ordinance will prohibit the use of single-use carryout plastic bags and require stores to charge a fee (of no less than 5¢ per bag) for recyclable single-use single-use carryout bags [AKA the same old paper bags we had 100 years ago].
Why was this enacted?:
California Law (AB2449) prohibits local jurisdictions from placing a fee on single-use plastic bags. Therefore a coalition of advocates, grocers, and policy makers developed an ordinance to ban plastic bags and put a fee on paper bags.
...a "coalition"...riiiight.
Okay, so what's up with the "fee"? ...which as we all know is California-code for yet another damn tax. Retail establishments set and keep their point-of-sale bag fees! Fees per bag must be a minimum of 5 cents, but may be more in order to cover bag cost.
So stores get to keep this fee. ...hummm, a cost they absorbed into their overall cost of doing business before, now becomes a profit center because they keep all of their prices the same and don't rebate the consumer anything. Some may think, "hey, it's only 5¢ per bag, and it's going to help the environment".
Yeah, it's 5¢ today, or this Month, or even this year.
Some of us remember the California CRV program. You know, the "deposit" on some bottles that would help the "environment"? Originally in 1987 that "CRV/deposit" was 5¢ (sound familiar???), then 8¢, then 10¢, and now it's 25¢ on almost everything that holds a beverage over 24oz. And, it was never a deposit, but a fee charged to the distributor that was passed onto the consumer and taxed twice along the way as well and it generates revenue from unclaimed refunds and sales tax on the CRV. Oh, and BTW all you oh-so fabulous Californians;
Legislation is currently pending that would expand the CRV program to include all plastic bottles, including food bottles, cosmetic bottles and cleaning supply bottles.
So this paper bag situation will wind up being another one of California's taxable taxes, starting at 5¢/bag today, and in year 10 will be 50¢/bag.
said by Gizy:Vote with your wallet. It will hurt the tax revenue eventually.
I suggest vote with your feet while you still have a wallet.
»articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/07···20110907
»www.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/us/se···per.html |
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| I like your nail polish. When did you get a Nikon? |
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GizyHave you thanked a soldier today?Premium
join:2002-08-26
PNW
kudos:1 | reply to dogma
Trust me, I voted with my feet and I still have crap to deal with. 
Living in a BLUE state that is so BLUE is rough (think Pink), but it's so much easier than California. I admit, I've made a few lifestyle changes up here (yes, I live in an apartment complex and I still recycle; I usually carry reusable bags with me; I don't buy bottled water as much (I carry my own water bottles empty through the airport now)) but it's so much easier to take the changes when they come. They become part of the culture. California hasn't made it to that point yet.
What I"m really surprised at is the surcharge. We do it slightly different here....I get a credit when I bring in a bag, usually $0.05. Same difference in the end, but the marketing part comes in huge with this one.
I'm a subcontractor to a large portion of the timber industry up here. I get the other side. The problem is that it's not a California industry so it doesn't directly affect them.
We have forests, water, seafood and really good vineyards to the north. Sadly, Oregon doesn't charge sales tax, or we could make a fortune shipping to California. Maybe we should start charging export taxes
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Home of the free, because of the brave.
Any Soldier
Dog Tags for Kids
My Pictures
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dogmaXYZPremium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1 | reply to No_Strings
I wouldn't be caught dead with a Nikon.
Not because it isn't a great camera, but because back in the day, only the snobs had Nikons...and BMW's. I'm a Canon man, and would never drive a BMW either.
Stupid, yes I know. But those guys driving BMW's with Nikon's in-hand always seemed to get more babes.
I'm still bitter.
...to answer your question, I yanked that pic offa the web before SOPA kicks in. But my nails are metal flake black! |
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GizyHave you thanked a soldier today?Premium
join:2002-08-26
PNW
kudos:1 | Not to mention, the babes shoot with Nikon |
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| reply to dogma
The funny part is you objecting to the suggestion of owning a Nikon while ignoring the nail polish comment.
Canon is OC soccer mom standard issue. I made my commitment to Nikon many years ago based on reputation and features. Later, when I made the jump to digital, I stayed because of the legacy glass and because equivalent Canon offerings were small and light. Perfect for soccer moms, but seemed like toys to me.
Good thing I don't drive a BMW (unless my wife lets me take hers). |
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 FutureMonKeep your Mitts off RMoneyPremium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2000-10-05
Seaside, CA | reply to Jtmo
The city thanks you for throwing away the recyclables...because most of them are doing recyclable seperating and then they get the revenue from it.
- FM |
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Madmoxi
join:2001-04-23
Los Angeles, CA | reply to Jtmo
If you think plastic bags shouldn't be banned, read this article first, it may change your mind.
»www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne···20110725 |
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 bobrkYou kids get offa my lawnPremium
join:2000-02-02
San Jose, CA | Great article, thanks! |
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dogmaXYZPremium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1 | reply to Madmoxi
said by Madmoxi:If you think plastic bags shouldn't be banned, read this article first, it may change your mind.
Good article. Makes many valid points with respect to the amount of pollution these plastic bags cause. As a matter of fact, we will begin using Reusable Grocery Tote Bags now.
However I still don't think plastic bags should be banned.
Changing laws, and especially using laws to financially punish some in the form of taxes is a slippery slope. Bottles, cans, bags, ...what's next? At what point do we remove all personal responsibility from the citizen and confer it to the State?
This is not a issue that should be remedied by law, but by education. Unless you think that people haven't the intellectual capacity to understand issues such as this. **
Here's an idea. (Free of charge BTW). Instead of posting links to articles on the Interwebs, consider taking the time to make an appointment with Anna Maria Chávez, the CEO of Girl Scouts of America. Very nice, Yale educated woman. Explain to her that the 2.3 Million Girl Scouts shouldn't sell teeth rotting, High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS), Genetically Modified Corn and Soy, Hydrogenated oils, partially hydrogenated oils, trans fatty laden Cookies.
Approximately 17% (or 12.5 million) of children and adolescents aged 2—19 years are obese, and these poison cookies hustled by these little girls camped in front of every Super Market in America are only contributing to this GROWING problem.
But you know they do this to raise funds. Your alternative, which would be much more lucrative, is to have the Girl Scouts sell their own brand of Reusable Grocery Tote Bags!
Hell, they already have the perfect point-of-sale locations. The global positive PR this switch from death-product sales, to saving-the-planet sales would be unmatched in their history. Moreover, it teaches young girls to be humanitarian citizens of the world by explaining to each shopper the valid reasons why they should not use plastic bags...and you can get in on it by setting up a factory that employs legal U.S. citizens to manufacture the bags for the girl scouts.
This would be the approach I would take. One that's a win-win for everyone.
But let's face it. You're not going to do that are you? Like everyone else, you're just gonna bitch & moan about how the gub'ment should force us to do things because we're to damn ignorant and lazy to act on our own.
Call me a liar. Or IM me and we can co-author a letter to the GSoA CEO. |
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| said by dogma: Explain to her that the 2.3 Million Girl Scouts shouldn't sell teeth rotting, High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS), Genetically Modified Corn and Soy, Hydrogenated oils, partially hydrogenated oils, trans fatty laden Cookies.
Approximately 17% (or 12.5 million) of children and adolescents aged 2—19 years are obese, and these poison cookies hustled by these little girls camped in front of every Super Market in America are only contributing to this GROWING problem.
Others share your position and are advocating a. removing fructose from the Generally Recognized As Safe list and b. regulating its sale and consumption as with alcohol and tobacco.
Good to see you on the side of big government. 
»www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr···log.html
»www.foodpolitics.com/wp-content/···gar1.pdf |
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Madmoxi
join:2001-04-23
Los Angeles, CA | reply to dogma
said by dogma:said by Madmoxi:If you think plastic bags shouldn't be banned, read this article first, it may change your mind.
Good article. Makes many valid points with respect to the amount of pollution these plastic bags cause. As a matter of fact, we will begin using Reusable Grocery Tote Bags now. However I still don't think plastic bags should be banned. Changing laws, and especially using laws to financially punish some in the form of taxes is a slippery slope. Bottles, cans, bags, ...what's next? At what point do we remove all personal responsibility from the citizen and confer it to the State? This is not a issue that should be remedied by law, but by education. Unless you think that people haven't the intellectual capacity to understand issues such as this. ** Here's an idea. (Free of charge BTW). Instead of posting links to articles on the Interwebs, consider taking the time to make an appointment with Anna Maria Chávez, the CEO of Girl Scouts of America. Very nice, Yale educated woman. Explain to her that the 2.3 Million Girl Scouts shouldn't sell teeth rotting, High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS), Genetically Modified Corn and Soy, Hydrogenated oils, partially hydrogenated oils, trans fatty laden Cookies. Approximately 17% (or 12.5 million) of children and adolescents aged 2—19 years are obese, and these poison cookies hustled by these little girls camped in front of every Super Market in America are only contributing to this GROWING problem. But you know they do this to raise funds. Your alternative, which would be much more lucrative, is to have the Girl Scouts sell their own brand of Reusable Grocery Tote Bags! Hell, they already have the perfect point-of-sale locations. The global positive PR this switch from death-product sales, to saving-the-planet sales would be unmatched in their history. Moreover, it teaches young girls to be humanitarian citizens of the world by explaining to each shopper the valid reasons why they should not use plastic bags...and you can get in on it by setting up a factory that employs legal U.S. citizens to manufacture the bags for the girl scouts. This would be the approach I would take. One that's a win-win for everyone. But let's face it. You're not going to do that are you? Like everyone else, you're just gonna bitch & moan about how the gub'ment should force us to do things because we're to damn ignorant and lazy to act on our own. Call me a liar. Or IM me and we can co-author a letter to the GSoA CEO. I don't post here much so maybe I am getting this quote thing wrong but here goes...
Banning plastic bags is a separate issue from charging people for using paper bags, one does not require the other. So yes I think ALL plastic bags should be banned, period. I also think that stores should not have to charge people for using paper. You are confusing the apples with the oranges here
You assume a lot about me btw, all of which is wrong.
Back in the days of my children's school days I was a GS leader, I was on the cookie and other councils.
I protested quite vocally over the cookies because I didn't even let my children have cookies or any food from a box because it was all over processed frankenfoods that had no business in my children's diet or anyone else's.
I love the GS organization very much, but on this issue we never agreed and I ended up refusing to sell them with my troop.
You assume I have never done anything to stop the crappy GS cookies from being sold, well I have, have you? |
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FutureMonKeep your Mitts off RMoneyPremium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2000-10-05
Seaside, CA | reply to dogma
said by dogma:But you know they do this to raise funds. Your alternative, which would be much more lucrative, is to have the Girl Scouts sell their own brand of Reusable Grocery Tote Bags!
Hell, they already have the perfect point-of-sale locations. The global positive PR this switch from death-product sales, to saving-the-planet sales would be unmatched in their history. Moreover, it teaches young girls to be humanitarian citizens of the world by explaining to each shopper the valid reasons why they should not use plastic bags...and you can get in on it by setting up a factory that employs legal U.S. citizens to manufacture the bags for the girl scouts.
This would be the approach I would take. One that's a win-win for everyone. Now that IS a fantastic idea. On so many levels...
...What once was a seasonal thing, could become year-round. How many times have you gone to the store and forgot to bring the bags you bought last time you were there? Not a problem, just buy one on your way in.
- FM
--
Q: How many theoretical physicists specializing in general relativity does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two. One to hold the bulb and one to rotate the universe.
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dogmaXYZPremium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1 | reply to Madmoxi
said by Madmoxi:You assume a lot about me btw, all of which is wrong.
...why yes, I probably have. All in the spirit of engagement of the issues. I respectfully ask that you indulge me a bit further here and accept my apologies.
said by Madmoxi:Banning plastic bags is a separate issue from charging people for using paper bags, one does not require the other. So yes I think ALL plastic bags should be banned, period. I also think that stores should not have to charge people for using paper. You are confusing the apples with the oranges here
So why not ban poverty and ignorance while we're at it?
I have no doubt your motives and intentions are sincere. What I take issue with is strategy. A "Ban" is a proclamation, any decree, summons or edict by which a thing is forbidden or that prohibits something within a certain political territory.
• San Francisco's ban on plastic grocery bags caused shoppers to switch [back] to paper bags, which require 70 percent more energy to manufacture, produce 50 percent more greenhouse gas emissions, accelerate global deforestation and create five times more waste than plastic bags (think manufacturing process). By the city’s own estimate, there was no measurable decrease in litter.
What's required here is not using the government as a social crutch, but for us individuals to actually get out and do something. Why has that become so difficult today?
I did assume you never did anything to get the GS to "ban" their cookies. Again, I fall on my sword. However, perhaps you didn't go far enough? Why not advocate for ALL children? You would be the perfect person for this. But it takes time and effort and ... commitment to a just cause. It can't be done in front of the TeeeVee, or on the Internet. It dang-sure can't be done without severe unintended consequences by the government.
One thing you didn't mention in your post; Do you, or do you not agree with my idea about having the GS migrate from selling cookies to selling reusable grocery bags? |
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