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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to daveinpoway

Re: How U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work

John Naisbitt, who ran a company that tracked trends of what countries were doing by reading their newspapers and magazines. His book, "Megatrends 2000", said manufacturing would leave the US and everything would be a global manufacturing process and the US would become the designer/creator/thinker/innovator/developer of those products.

Zoder

join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL
reply to howardfine
quote:
“We shouldn’t be criticized for using Chinese workers,” a current Apple executive said. “The U.S. has stopped producing people with the skills we need.”
This is not a problem Apple caused, but this quote is basically a self fulfilling prophesy.

Over the past few decades, multinationals based in the US have have slowly but surely made it so that young people in the country don't want these skills. Why would you take time and money learning a skill that you can't be employed for? If there was a demand for these jobs in the US the skilled workforce would arise.

steven s
Premium
join:2002-09-14
Dearborn, MI
reply to Rob
said by Rob:

said by Snakeoil:

LOL, The excuses used by the "Apple" execs are a crock. I worked at an electronics manufacturing plant in Ohio. There were times where we ended up working 12 hour shifts, 5 days a week. Then we'd come in on saturday and sunday for an extra 8 hours. All to get an order done and shipped.

And you expected time and a half for those 8 hours, yes?

The Chinese expect time and a half for hours past 8 too, Apple's suppliers just don't have to obey local Chinese law because money speaks.

Zoder

join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL
reply to howardfine
said by howardfine:

John Naisbitt, who ran a company that tracked trends of what countries were doing by reading their newspapers and magazines. His book, "Megatrends 2000", said manufacturing would leave the US and everything would be a global manufacturing process and the US would become the designer/creator/thinker/innovator/developer of those products.

Good luck with that. R&D centers are already being placed in India and China so they can be close to the manufacturing centers.

steven s
Premium
join:2002-09-14
Dearborn, MI
reply to howardfine
said by howardfine:

said by Rob:

Which bugs me, because there's clear evidence of labor violations in the factories in China that Apple employs, and I feel they are turning a blind idea in the name of profits.

Apple is not the only company that complex manufactures for. It is only one of a many large corps that go there, including Microsoft.

This is a great example of how outsourcing allows companies to evade their responsibilities to your workers.

xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
reply to Snakeoil
But you got overtime, in China they just get Tea and biscuit.
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xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to mozerd
said by mozerd:

IMO, manufacturing can return to North America based on manufacturing ingenuity that can overcome the valid health issues regulations try to deal with -- but regulation is not the answer -- ingenuity and the will to do it [financial incentives] is the answer. Unfortunately far to many socialists [communists/labour unions] have far to much influence in North America.

I know, I know, forcing employers to offer safe working conditions, health coverage, workers comp, FMLA, and other things we take for granted is just so wrong. We should go back and start treating people like the commodity they are, you know, like in that book, The Jungle or at any Foxxconn factory.
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xrobertcmx
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join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
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reply to Teasip
I already do frequently, unless there are no viable alternatives.
Just bought mushkin RAM which is at least assembled in Ohio.
The reason I bought it was for a new HTPC build, I could have picked up a Foxconn prebuilt model for considerably less, but I've been dodging them as best I can for several years.
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xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Rob
But, we like our Hyundai (US Made with Korean and US Parts)? Yes, the dashboard is plastic, but so are the foreign made cars now. I know my sisters GM (Canadian with Mexican and US parts) fell apart at 80K miles. My Honda was built in Japan though, but my grandmothers Ford was built in Mexico. But Honda has moved jobs to the US whereas Ford and GM have outsourced.
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xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
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reply to lordpuffer
Local county and state incentives are provided, sometime considerable. The problem is that frequently the companies fail to live up the promises that they make in order to get those breaks. As for Federal incentives...do any of the major corps still pay tax?
»www.ctj.org/corporatetaxdodgers/···rsPR.pdf
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23
reply to daveinpoway
In the "Book of Jobs", Steve Jobs used to showcase the automated Apple assembly plants raunned by robots painted in Steve's Jobs' choice of colours.

I find it interesting that at the end of the day, they chose to have all the iToys assembled by hand in china instead of automated plants in the USA.


Fronkman
An Apple a day keeps the doctor away
Premium
join:2003-06-23
Saint Louis, MO
reply to xrobertcmx
said by xrobertcmx:

As for Federal incentives...do any of the major corps still pay tax?

ha! the vast majority of the fortune 500 not only doesn't pay tax but actually gets big checks from the government every year.

looking at the whole thing from a macroeconomic/historic perspective, chinese labor is not really that far off base from what has been happening since the start of the industrial revolution. england was cheap later for continental europe, the US was cheap labor for europe, asia is currently cheap labor for the US and europe...

this cycle will continue. the standard of living is rising (though somewhat imperceptibly) in china and eventually communism will fall. where will the next cheap labor source come from? there are a number of other asian countries but most economists agree that africa is wide open.
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jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
reply to daveinpoway
Wow, lots of misinformation in this thread.

2010/11 numbers aren't readily available last I checked, but as of 2009 the US was still the largest manufacturer in the world. If it stood alone it would be the 8th largest economy in the world. China is catching up of course, and may pass us soon. With 4x the population this isn't hard believe.

»shopfloor.org/2011/03/u-s-manufa···st/18756

The philosophy behind corporate tax rates is a bit thick for this topic.
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scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to daveinpoway
A couple of things:

1. Foxconn has announced that they plan to install 1,000,000+ robots over the next three years, most of which will displace their current workforce. So much for cheap labor costs then, huh? (One could take this opportunity to point out that factories with said robots could be located anywhere on the planet - even in the good old USA!)

2. China's economy has already started a slow-motion collapse, as has been predicted for some time now. It remains to be seen how well the Chinese government will be able to manage this - will there be a soft landing or a hard crash? If things get ugly then I expect a Chinese war of some type (civil, border issues, disputes over territorial waters, etc) may become all but inevitable.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Zoder
said by Zoder:

said by howardfine:

John Naisbitt, who ran a company that tracked trends of what countries were doing by reading their newspapers and magazines. His book, "Megatrends 2000", said manufacturing would leave the US and everything would be a global manufacturing process and the US would become the designer/creator/thinker/innovator/developer of those products.

Good luck with that. R&D centers are already being placed in India and China so they can be close to the manufacturing centers.

Um. Starting to do something 12 years later does not make the trend wrong. And, what he wrote about, was a trend, not a prediction.

Also, why does R&D have to be near manufacturing? And IF such a thing is happening, it doesn't mean it's happening with all of them, and I'd venture to say it isn't happening much at all. In fact, I'm fully aware of companies that have regretted doing such a thing and have pulled out of India.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Fronkman
Exactly the point I was going to make!


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to xrobertcmx
That isn't my problem. Maybe the unions should take their glorious cause world wide and demand an international wage/work place standard. so that you go get a job in china, you'll get paid what a person in the US would make. Meaning no matter where you go, you get the same pay for the same job. Also sick days and paid vacation, with paid holidays. And a 5 day work week.

I strongly doubt something like that would become a standard, but it would level the playing field, and stop the abuse of 3rd world work forces.
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xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
I am a bit lost on what you are aiming at here?
Losing all of the the minor comforts we take for granted, and have been steadily losing for the last ten years would be your problem if you are an American worked.
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Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
I'll try restating it:
The glorious American unions, the guys that say they have the workers best interest at heart, and are all about the worker [maybe 50 years ago, but not today], should take their "act" to the international stage. They [the unions], should try to push for a international [world wide] wage [pay], and work safety standard. As well as a international work place policy of paid vacation, paid holidays, and 5 paid sick days.

How would the American worker be losing any of that, if it became an international enforceable law?
You could work in china, at the same position you currently hold, and make the same wage. Or go to Europe and work the same job, for the same pay.
VS going to China and getting paid less for the same work.
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Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.


mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON

1 recommendation

said by Snakeoil:

I'll try restating it:

very funny. Working is neither a right or privilege -- working is a responsibility. Wages are governed by market forces not by government mandates. Governments do mandate but dynamic markets force mandates to be ineffective and unsustainable.

Power is the opium of the few -- entitlements is the cocaine of the masses. Equality is the Utopia of the mindless and expertly exploited by the power hungry regardless of political affiliation.
--
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IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
said by mozerd:

Wages are governed by market forces not by government mandates. Governments do mandate but dynamic markets force mandates to be ineffective and unsustainable.

Exactly. I own some fast-food restaurants. I have NEVER paid minimum wage unless I would be willing to have knuckle draggers run my business. Instead, I pay more and get people who can think reasonably on their own.


not

@comcast.net
reply to Teasip
said by Teasip:

I second the statement of being willing to pay a tad more to have it made by Americans in America. We seem to have plenty of folks who need the work and the cost differential seems to be coming down in comparison to Chinese produced goods so bring the work home. When people complain about the class discrepancy who do we have to blame but ourselves? If the big-wigs make too much money, then build a better mousetrap and get some of it yourself.

Why should we pay more for something that's made in the US? Why do I have to be the one to help the economy bring back jobs to the US? We already spend way too much for some things as is. What should happen is the companies that make these products should lower their profit margins (because they're already big enough as it is) instead of raising the prices for the end consumer. So, by your definition, Apple should make a little less, while maintaining the end consumer price, to make the product here in the US. That way, the job of bringing back jobs to the US is back in their hands and not ours!!!

They're the ones who shipped the jobs overseas to make more of a profit margin, that's the only reason why it went overseas anyway. They should be the ones to bring it back, screw all this "We should just pay more to buy a product made in the US." That won't improve anything because then the money you were saving just gets shifted back to something else and that doesn't improve the economy. What will improve the economy is companies NOT RIPPING US OFF CONSTANTLY!!! Companies don't need to make 400%+ profit to have a successful product or bottom line. When we stop paying CEOs millions of dollars each year to run companies into the ground is when the US will have a better economy. CEOs should take a % of the profit THEY HELP TO BRING IN. That means, a % of NEW BUSINESS they brought in as part of their job assignment. If they don't improve the business they're running, they don't take home anything... CEOs have been CEOs or high level execs for a while, they should have plenty of money that they don't need the new paycheck to live paycheck to paycheck.

That is how it should be!!!


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
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join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
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reply to Rob
said by Rob:

said by lordpuffer:

IMO, it could all be solved if tax breaks were given to big business to keep manufacturing of US products inside the US, instead of the other way around. In essence, our economic competitor is getting stronger every day, while we get weaker (in economic terms).

Yes. It's hard for us to compete with China, who manipulates their currency and hands out secret subsidies to industries so they can further undercut the American market.

I would be in favor of cutting Apple's corporate tax in the U.S. - we'd make it up through taxes on the employees they hire in the states.

Bottom line, you can't compete with workers that make typically $35/week. (on the high end) With PPP only works out to about $150 or so a week. Can a typical American working in the rust belt survive off of that? Not to mention, taxes are lower in China...
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Fronkman
An Apple a day keeps the doctor away
Premium
join:2003-06-23
Saint Louis, MO
said by J E F F:

Bottom line, you can't compete with workers that make typically $35/week. (on the high end) With PPP only works out to about $150 or so a week. Can a typical American working in the rust belt survive off of that? Not to mention, taxes are lower in China...

you got it. it is impossible to compete with that.
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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to not
said by not :

They're the ones who shipped the jobs overseas to make more of a profit margin, that's the only reason why it went overseas anyway.

Not necessarily. If one company does it, to keep prices lower, then they all have to do it to maintain competitiveness.

quote:
What will improve the economy is companies NOT RIPPING US OFF CONSTANTLY!!!
They don't. They charge what the market will bear. If you're willing to pay $700 for an iPad, that's what they'll charge. If you're not, they'll lower the price.
quote:
Companies don't need to make 400%+ profit
They don't on 99% of all products.

quote:
CEOs should take a % of the profit THEY HELP TO BRING IN. That means, a % of NEW BUSINESS they brought in as part of their job assignment. If they don't improve the business they're running, they don't take home anything...

You're assuming another company won't do that and lure away that CEO to work for them. You pay what it takes to get who you want.


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to mozerd
In a free market, sure. But when you have nations like China, where the government can mandate a wage, manipulate the currency, then the advantage becomes one sided as for as manufacturing is concerned, screwing the people who would like to work, but can't due to lack of jobs.

If I was going to open up a production plant, I'd look at a few things:
1]Which country has the least amount of environmental regulations.
2]Which country will offer me the most in some type of "kick backs". Meaning who would be willing to pay the most, so I don't have to pay that much to get my plant up and running.
3]Which country has less hassles in terms of Human resources. Meaning cheapest wages, benefits, work environment. IE: can I get away with treating the human work force that pieces of shit, instead of like normal humans.
4]Who has the cheapest export/import costs.. etc etc etc.

Until those items are standardized like an International Standards Organization [ISO], the play field for certain types of business will be typically slanted away from the US. Things like manufacturing.
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Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
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Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to howardfine
I have worked many fast food jobs, and very few paid minimum wage. Most started a whole quarter above it.

Unless of course you were a waiter/busboy. They you were paid below minimum wage and split the tips.

I never agreed with a government mandated wage, but many feel it is needed. As it prevents the employers from low balling the employees in wages. Meaning the majority feel if there was no mandated wage, all the employers would work together and drop wages down to a penny a day.

But like you said, offer a higher wage, and you can demand a better quality employee. And the employees would be more willing to do what you ask, with less grumbling.
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Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.

8744675

join:2000-10-10
Decatur, GA
reply to Snakeoil
In the 70's I worked in an IBM plant in my home town in upstate NY that manufactured circuit boards and ceramic chips used in mainframe computers. The production process used all kinds of nasty chemicals for plating, etching and cleaning the boards during the process, such as Trichloroethylene and Cyanide to name just 2 of about 20 others.

The building I worked in had few windows and the outside walls were built using thick prefab cement panels that were designed to fall outward in case there was an explosion in the tower area where resin impregnated with fiberglass was cured.

A also cleaned circuit boards by dipping them into a liquid freon bath to clean them. The vat had negative pressure vents around the inside of the vat with ping pong balls floating on top of the liquid freon to reduce evaporation. I could feel the freon vapors hitting my face as i leaned over to dip each rack.

There were many large tinning and plating machines that used 20 different chemicals to plate the pads on each card. A separate department handled the maintenance and disposal of the chemicals. I worked across from secured and sealed area that had alarms, flashing lights if an accidental spill caused acid and cyanide to come in contact and employees in and out of the area had to evacuate.

There was even a separate plant and holding pond to treat and dispose of the waste chemicals piped in from several buildings. Neighbors and IBM's 12,000 always trusted IBM. When they discovered a small amount of TCP in the ground water, they bought and knocked down several homes in the center of town and built filtering stations to remove the contamination from the ground water. It was a somewhat quiet move, and IBM paid for a new fire truck for the village. I grew up 2 blocks from IBM, which occupied the entire center of town and was surrounded with neighborhoods.

Nobody thought it would turn out to be anything close to the Love Canal discovery. IBM was considered a "clean" industry, unlike the nearby PA coal mines and other heavy industry smokestacks that blew all kinds of junk into the air.

The village water supply was famous because it came from deep artisan wells near the Susquehanna river, unlike many places that treat ground or river water. That was until the toxic plume finally made it into the water table and contaminated the wells.

That's when the shit hit the fan. Cancer rates, birth defects, and other unusual auto-immune health issues were occurring at a higher rates. My sister, who used to work in the same building, is on disability for fibromyalgia. My other sister is disabled with another unknown auto-immune syndrome. We also grew up in a house insulated with vermiculite pellets from the Libby, MO mine that was found to contain long shard asbestos fibers. I helped my dad pour it in, and we used to play with it and use it for potting plants.

When our 1930's built schools were remodeled, the insulated the basement and rooms with spayed in asbestos insulation. Our new church had the same thing, and we used to throw pencils and stuff at the ceiling to knock off chunks of it!

Being a good neighbor IBM footed most of the bill, instead of sticking the EPA and taxpayers with the cleanup costs. Now they sold off all the plants to Lockheed or other unscrupulous corporations who use loopholes or lobbyists to dodge responsibility.

Toxic waste reduction methods have improved greatly, but in today's corporate climate, they use every way possible to buy politicians and regulators to screw American taxpayers. Now they just outsource source their pollution to China, who has billions of people to use as expendable resources.

Do we want to invite that kind of behavior back in the US.


PhoenixAZ
Get A Mac
Premium
join:2004-01-04
Phoenix, AZ
kudos:1
reply to daveinpoway
Do we want to be the brains behind the product or just the mindless robots making them? The US has changed from brawn to brain, and that's fine with me. They are still designed here aren't they?


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
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Reviews:
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reply to daveinpoway
I read everything you all said before jumping in.

First (even though I'm Canadian) I disagree with tax breaks, they are simply a form of corporate welfare, they will take your money, go through the motions to "create jobs" and when the time period is up, either demand a sweeter deal ,or go where it's cheaper.

Dell is good example, they had folks working in Ireland for roughly $18/hr, and Ireland had one of the corporate tax rates in the EU. They went to Poland, even though taxes were higher because the Polish workers worked for roughly $3/hr , China and India are even cheaper.

So how much incentive is going to take to bring those jobs home and pay them say 25K/yr(to me that's low but not unreasonable for an unskilled job)?

Then you bring in Environmental concerns, someone upthread mentioned the fallout from the IBM plant,that's a cost too, and why spend all the money complying with environmental regulations, when you just dump the stuff in the backyard and the environment be damned.

The 2nd some of you had said, is that you are willing to pay extra if it's made here. That does 2 things.

1) If an Ipad costs say $100 more because it's made here, the fanbois/girls aside, others will start looking a Android tablets that are similar in features, but that are cheaper.

2) It drives inflation, those wanting to buy an iProduct will need more money to buy it, which then will have them demand more money from their employer, who will have to raise prices to compensate.. Rinse Repeat.

Then you have "The Street", the scumbags who are really driving this. A few years back I recall reading Apple had it's best quarter ever, yet the "Street" punished the stock, it wasn't high enough!!

The same can be said about RIM, outside of having serious innovation issues, they are profitable , have no debt , lots of cash in the bank, and good revenue from the service side of the business, yet the stock is beaten up, buy those more interested in making money selling the stock short, or seeing in broken up and make money on selling the patents and whatever else they can salvage.

Those of you that say, we'll we design it here. Look at what they pay Jonny Ivey, while a bad example, he's a brilliant designer, if you could find someone that was close in India or China to do the job, you bet the CEO of that company will have R&D shipped there.

He'll they're already transcribing Doctor's notes overnight there and doing company books... what's next?
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