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fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:1

reply to desarollo

Re: Supply and Demand

But piracy shouldn't be regarded as competition for paid content.

That would like comparing working and robbing a bank as a means of earning a living.

desarollo

join:2011-10-01
Monroe, MI

Piracy is a symptom, not the problem.

The entertainment industry ignores this fact at their own peril.


kaila

join:2000-10-11
Lincolnshire, IL

reply to fifty nine
It is because scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world where everything is infinitely copyable. Decent content will be widely available no matter what. That's the reality.

What the paid/pirated ratio looks like is dependent upon what the content owners charge and how widely they make it available.
--
Jeff Howe
Jeff's Blog - »www.ostjournal.net



mech1164
I'll Be Back

join:2001-11-19
Lodi, NJ
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

But piracy shouldn't be regarded as competition for paid content.

That would like comparing working and robbing a bank as a means of earning a living.

Again all well and good. NOW REALITY: IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE CONSUMER. Look at it this way. For centuries people have imbibed spirits and to great excess. Now when the Government tried to in the "For the betterment of the Country" use the Volstead Act to make prohibition the law of the land. Look how that worked out. Without a legal means to get their enjoyment. People went to great (and very illegal) means to satisfy them. It wasn't until years later when they realized what a mess they had made by doing this legislation did they repeal it. Same thing happening now. People will do whatever they have to if they want it bad enough. Legal be dammed.


firephoto
KDE
Premium
join:2003-03-18
Brewster, WA
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

You guys are arguing about piracy in relation to mainstream television with commercials. This is the television that broadcasts a show during prime time once and might replay that same episode 2 maybe 3 times per year on that channel again but only after months gap after the first showing and never on a regular schedule in it's original order in it's entirety again. The first time these programs air EVERYTHING is paid for and profit is to be had, anything else is just double dipping and extra icing on the cake.

Quit propping up the piracy argument from both sides with a misguided understanding of what's going on. It makes you no better than this stupid article with someone pandering to a 80 year old dirtbag ceo hoping to sway him on matters of todays technology right after he shows his ignorance by bitching about the results on a search engine as if it wasn't suppose to show what is really existing on the internet.
--
Say no to JAMS!



Romney2012
Defeat Obama 2012-Chg we can believe in
Premium
join:2002-03-03
USA
kudos:4

said by firephoto:

The first time these programs air EVERYTHING is paid for and profit is to be had, anything else is just double dipping and extra icing on the cake.

Nonsense. Most prime time series never make a profit. Those that do make their profits if and when the series goes in to syndication, assuming they stick around long enough to be sold for reruns on all the cable channels.
--
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
»www.politico.com/2012-election/



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand
Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..

reply to firephoto
But piracy exists because content people want is not available where they live or how they want to view it.

Up here in Canada one of our cable companies teamed up with FX and created FX Canada.

What's on it? Older shows that FX cancelled (Lights out), non current seasons of SoA, and a host of reality shows to fill out the schedule, but I'm expected to pay through the nose for this.

I can't watch Boardwalk Empire unless I subscribe to the Uber premium gold pressed latimum package, I'd be happy to shell out $x for HBO, if I could get it by itself,without the bundled bs, to me it's worth it.

So the restrictions put in place by the media companies has forced me to look elsewhere for their content and they aren't legal means.

I'm not justifying what I'm doing, but the reality if I could get what I wanted to watch, when I wanted to (even if it means paying for HuluPlus)I would resort to those alternative methods of getting my fix.

Now you can say wait for the Blu Ray/DVD to come out. OK, so in the above example of Boardwalk Empire, I'll have to wait till next fall (HBO releases the Blu Ray/DVD's just before the next season starts) to watch the previous season and the cost is now higher then if I just paid $X/month to HBO.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


desarollo

join:2011-10-01
Monroe, MI

reply to firephoto
Actually, everything *isn't* paid for. If you actually worked in television (as I have), you'd realize that the hope is that everything is paid for, but often times isn't.

When the next-day's Nielsen report hits the networks *and* the advertisers, a less than promised audience results in a lower rate for the advertising. These days, only stupid advertisers pay the rate card.



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand
Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..

said by desarollo:

Actually, everything *isn't* paid for. If you actually worked in television (as I have), you'd realize that the hope is that everything is paid for, but often times isn't.

When the next-day's Nielsen report hits the networks *and* the advertisers, a less than promised audience results in a lower rate for the advertising. These days, only stupid advertisers pay the rate card.

I've been in the TV business for 6yrs, lower ratings result in what is we call Make Good, making up for the lower ratings by providing advertising elsewhere for free.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:1

reply to mech1164

said by mech1164:

said by fifty nine:

But piracy shouldn't be regarded as competition for paid content.

That would like comparing working and robbing a bank as a means of earning a living.

Again all well and good. NOW REALITY: IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE CONSUMER. Look at it this way. For centuries people have imbibed spirits and to great excess. Now when the Government tried to in the "For the betterment of the Country" use the Volstead Act to make prohibition the law of the land. Look how that worked out. Without a legal means to get their enjoyment. People went to great (and very illegal) means to satisfy them. It wasn't until years later when they realized what a mess they had made by doing this legislation did they repeal it. Same thing happening now. People will do whatever they have to if they want it bad enough. Legal be dammed.

Agreed. It doesn't matter to consumers because piracy largely has no consequences. Yeah, sure a few people get sued but the vast majority escape scot free.

It has come to the point where people view piracy as an entitlement. Sure SOPA was bad in many ways and I absolutely don't support it in its current form but no one who works in the industry can deny that piracy is a problem.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:1

reply to kaila

said by kaila:

It is because scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world where everything is infinitely copyable. Decent content will be widely available no matter what. That's the reality.

What the paid/pirated ratio looks like is dependent upon what the content owners charge and how widely they make it available.

I fail to understand what scarcity has to do with gaining access to something without paying for it.

This is the #1 bogus argument in favor of piracy - that nothing tangible is taken so no one is harmed. Sure, nothing tangible is taken but the more people that see piracy as a harmless act without consequences is the more people will simply decide that they're not going to pay and they're simply going to pirate.

This has nothing to do with pricing or business models either. You can't compete against free, and piracy is relatively easy to do.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:1

reply to elwoodblues

said by elwoodblues:

But piracy exists because content people want is not available where they live or how they want to view it.

Up here in Canada one of our cable companies teamed up with FX and created FX Canada.

What's on it? Older shows that FX cancelled (Lights out), non current seasons of SoA, and a host of reality shows to fill out the schedule, but I'm expected to pay through the nose for this.

I can't watch Boardwalk Empire unless I subscribe to the Uber premium gold pressed latimum package, I'd be happy to shell out $x for HBO, if I could get it by itself,without the bundled bs, to me it's worth it.

So the restrictions put in place by the media companies has forced me to look elsewhere for their content and they aren't legal means.

I'm not justifying what I'm doing, but the reality if I could get what I wanted to watch, when I wanted to (even if it means paying for HuluPlus)I would resort to those alternative methods of getting my fix.

Now you can say wait for the Blu Ray/DVD to come out. OK, so in the above example of Boardwalk Empire, I'll have to wait till next fall (HBO releases the Blu Ray/DVD's just before the next season starts) to watch the previous season and the cost is now higher then if I just paid $X/month to HBO.

You have the Canadian Government partly to blame for this. They're so hell bent on protecting Canadian content that they'll cripple US content that wants to make its way to Canadian shores.

»www.media-awareness.ca/english/i···ules.cfm


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand
Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..

This has nothing to do with Cancon, but rights issues, they may have sold the SoA S4 rights to another company in Canada, which has put it on the shelf, so nobody else can have it.

My point was that I want to watch S4 of SoA,but I can't legally, so I'll find an alternative method.

CanCon is about creating "Made in Canada" shows, some networks (CTV) tried to do an end run around it buying the rights to Idol Canadian Idol or Talent shows (Canada has talent), both bombed horribly.

CanCon is to ensure there is something that ensuring that we keep our Canadian culture, otherwise the networks would just gobble up every available US program and become secondary US broadcasters.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand
Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..

reply to Romney2012

said by Romney2012:

said by firephoto:

The first time these programs air EVERYTHING is paid for and profit is to be had, anything else is just double dipping and extra icing on the cake.

Nonsense. Most prime time series never make a profit. Those that do make their profits if and when the series goes in to syndication, assuming they stick around long enough to be sold for reruns on all the cable channels.

They make money when they sell content to the rest of the world during it's first run.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

reply to kaila

said by kaila:

It is because scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world where everything is infinitely copyable. Decent content will be widely available no matter what.

There is physical scarcity which goes back to ancient times -- e.g gold, salt, diamonds. Then there is artificial scarcity which is created by man -- e.g. paper money, a velvet rope at a club, a subway token, or copyrights on works (let's say non-digital for the moment, like books or paintings).

Artificial scarcity has to have an enforcement mechanism. Paper money can be counterfeited but there are technical and legal means to thwart counterfeiters. A velvet rope has a big strong guy who won't let you cross it unless you pass muster. If you get a bunch of guys to overwhelm the rope-guider, the owner will call the cops and have you all arrested. If you hop the turnstile at the subway the transit police will chase you down. If you forge a painting and try to sell it, you may be caught and arrested. Or even if you try to give it away on a street corner.

Markets of artificially scarce goods also have people who try to get around the enforcement mechanism. Some of them are successful, most are not, at least if they try to do it at scale. One-offs are not hard, making an enterprise out of it is.

So what does this all have to do with your comment? Everything. To simply assert "scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world because it's technically possible to copy digital works" is ignoring all the ways mankind has built up businesses and markets and even economies around artificially scarce goods. There is no reason that it's not possible to create artificial scarcity around digital goods. It's happening all the time right in front of you.

Like in non-digital markets, artificial scarcity in digital markets requires an enforcement mechanism. To simply assert that there should be none, or worse that there CAN be none, is to simply deny the possibility of a market for digital goods. I think that is incredibly short-sighted and rigid. And I don't understand how any thinking person can go there. You are ignoring how society, governments, laws, commerce, and markets work.

CXM_Splicer

join:2011-08-11
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

It has come to the point where people view piracy as an entitlement. Sure SOPA was bad in many ways and I absolutely don't support it in its current form but no one who works in the industry can deny that piracy is a problem.

Actually, I think it is the industry with the entitlement issues... they feel they should be entitled to continue their business model by force even though technological advances have made it too difficult to control distribution of their product.

There are also many people in the industry who don't see this as a problem. There are actually artists who release their works to the world for free (imagine that!). Record companies and their shareholders definitely see this as problem; they would do better to look for the opportunity.

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

reply to MyDogHsFleas

said by MyDogHsFleas:

So what does this all have to do with your comment? Everything. To simply assert "scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world because it's technically possible to copy digital works" is ignoring all the ways mankind has built up businesses and markets and even economies around artificially scarce goods. There is no reason that it's not possible to create artificial scarcity around digital goods. It's happening all the time right in front of you.

Except that it's not just "technically possible". Computers were designed to easily handle digital data. Copying that data has been one of the core functions of computers since they were first invented.

To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.

It's like trying to create a physical book that can only be read by one person.

said by MyDogHsFleas:

Like in non-digital markets, artificial scarcity in digital markets requires an enforcement mechanism.

Do they also require penalties that are higher than those for physical goods?

Shoplifting is also a big problem, but I don't recall Walmart lobbying the government to impose special $20,000 fines and multi-year prison sentences or to make it an automatic felony.

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

said by Rekrul:

Except that it's not just "technically possible". Computers were designed to easily handle digital data. Copying that data has been one of the core functions of computers since they were first invented.

To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.

Wow, thanks for the Computers 101 lecture.

So is putting material in paper money that makes it look different when copied "essentially breaking the proper functioning of a copy machine"? which has been "the core function of copy machines since they were first invented"? And is this "at odds with what it was designed to do"?

Or are you just building an argument backwards from your desired conclusion?

Do they also require penalties that are higher than those for physical goods?

Shoplifting is also a big problem, but I don't recall Walmart lobbying the government to impose special $20,000 fines and multi-year prison sentences or to make it an automatic felony.

Not really relevant to the topic. But, I'll come back on your analogy with what the music distributors would say, which has some validity. Shoplifting one CD is a loss of 10 bucks or whatever. Putting that CD on MegaUpload or Pirate Bay is like shoplifting the entire store's inventory of that CD. Bigger crime.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:1

reply to Rekrul

said by Rekrul:

To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.

It's like trying to create a physical book that can only be read by one person.

Or trying to create paper notes which have artificial value and trying to make them uncopyable.

Imagine if the Government did that! Oh the horror!


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:1

reply to CXM_Splicer
It should entitlement to expect that you be paid for your work.

It should not be an entitlement to expect that you have the right to steal the work of others.


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