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MyDogHsFleas
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join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
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reply to kaila

Re: Supply and Demand

said by kaila:

It is because scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world where everything is infinitely copyable. Decent content will be widely available no matter what.

There is physical scarcity which goes back to ancient times -- e.g gold, salt, diamonds. Then there is artificial scarcity which is created by man -- e.g. paper money, a velvet rope at a club, a subway token, or copyrights on works (let's say non-digital for the moment, like books or paintings).

Artificial scarcity has to have an enforcement mechanism. Paper money can be counterfeited but there are technical and legal means to thwart counterfeiters. A velvet rope has a big strong guy who won't let you cross it unless you pass muster. If you get a bunch of guys to overwhelm the rope-guider, the owner will call the cops and have you all arrested. If you hop the turnstile at the subway the transit police will chase you down. If you forge a painting and try to sell it, you may be caught and arrested. Or even if you try to give it away on a street corner.

Markets of artificially scarce goods also have people who try to get around the enforcement mechanism. Some of them are successful, most are not, at least if they try to do it at scale. One-offs are not hard, making an enterprise out of it is.

So what does this all have to do with your comment? Everything. To simply assert "scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world because it's technically possible to copy digital works" is ignoring all the ways mankind has built up businesses and markets and even economies around artificially scarce goods. There is no reason that it's not possible to create artificial scarcity around digital goods. It's happening all the time right in front of you.

Like in non-digital markets, artificial scarcity in digital markets requires an enforcement mechanism. To simply assert that there should be none, or worse that there CAN be none, is to simply deny the possibility of a market for digital goods. I think that is incredibly short-sighted and rigid. And I don't understand how any thinking person can go there. You are ignoring how society, governments, laws, commerce, and markets work.

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by MyDogHsFleas:

So what does this all have to do with your comment? Everything. To simply assert "scarcity doesn't exist in a digital world because it's technically possible to copy digital works" is ignoring all the ways mankind has built up businesses and markets and even economies around artificially scarce goods. There is no reason that it's not possible to create artificial scarcity around digital goods. It's happening all the time right in front of you.

Except that it's not just "technically possible". Computers were designed to easily handle digital data. Copying that data has been one of the core functions of computers since they were first invented.

To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.

It's like trying to create a physical book that can only be read by one person.

said by MyDogHsFleas:

Like in non-digital markets, artificial scarcity in digital markets requires an enforcement mechanism.

Do they also require penalties that are higher than those for physical goods?

Shoplifting is also a big problem, but I don't recall Walmart lobbying the government to impose special $20,000 fines and multi-year prison sentences or to make it an automatic felony.

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

said by Rekrul:

Except that it's not just "technically possible". Computers were designed to easily handle digital data. Copying that data has been one of the core functions of computers since they were first invented.

To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.

Wow, thanks for the Computers 101 lecture.

So is putting material in paper money that makes it look different when copied "essentially breaking the proper functioning of a copy machine"? which has been "the core function of copy machines since they were first invented"? And is this "at odds with what it was designed to do"?

Or are you just building an argument backwards from your desired conclusion?

Do they also require penalties that are higher than those for physical goods?

Shoplifting is also a big problem, but I don't recall Walmart lobbying the government to impose special $20,000 fines and multi-year prison sentences or to make it an automatic felony.

Not really relevant to the topic. But, I'll come back on your analogy with what the music distributors would say, which has some validity. Shoplifting one CD is a loss of 10 bucks or whatever. Putting that CD on MegaUpload or Pirate Bay is like shoplifting the entire store's inventory of that CD. Bigger crime.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:1

reply to Rekrul

said by Rekrul:

To create scarcity in digital files, you have to essentially break the proper functioning of the computer. To keep people from ripping DVDs or Blu-Rays, you need to introduce some method of keeping the system from reading data from discs, or prevent ripping programs from running, both of which are at odds with how the computer was designed to function. To prevent people from sharing or making copies of digital downloads, you need some method of keeping the system from playing those files, which is also at odds with what it was designed to do.

It's like trying to create a physical book that can only be read by one person.

Or trying to create paper notes which have artificial value and trying to make them uncopyable.

Imagine if the Government did that! Oh the horror!

Rekrul

join:2007-04-21
Milford, CT
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

reply to MyDogHsFleas

said by MyDogHsFleas:

So is putting material in paper money that makes it look different when copied "essentially breaking the proper functioning of a copy machine"? which has been "the core function of copy machines since they were first invented"? And is this "at odds with what it was designed to do"?

That's only one specific example and it would have made a better analogy if you had mentioned the fact that some copiers are specifically design to refuse to copy money.

But what if the publishing industry demanding a legal solution to prevent people from copying or scanning books? Coming up with a printed page that can be easily read, but which can't be copied would be expensive and virtually impossible. So far the only solution they've come up with for making documents uncopyable is to use black ink on dark paper, which also makes them very hard to read.

The only workable method would to have the copier connect to a central database every time you scan something to compare the hash of what you've scanned with a list of know hashes for copyrighted works and refuse to work if it matches something on the list. Of course such a system would have a high failure rate, false positives and wouldn't account for fair use, essentially breaking the core functionality of the machine, but hey if it keeps people from copying copyrighted material, it's worth it. Right?

said by MyDogHsFleas:

Not really relevant to the topic. But, I'll come back on your analogy with what the music distributors would say, which has some validity. Shoplifting one CD is a loss of 10 bucks or whatever. Putting that CD on MegaUpload or Pirate Bay is like shoplifting the entire store's inventory of that CD. Bigger crime.

You mean like the crime of leaking the workprint of the movie Wolverine a month before it hit theaters, causing the film to only make a pathetic $373 million at the box office?

MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

said by Rekrul:

said by MyDogHsFleas:

So is putting material in paper money that makes it look different when copied "essentially breaking the proper functioning of a copy machine"? which has been "the core function of copy machines since they were first invented"? And is this "at odds with what it was designed to do"?

That's only one specific example and it would have made a better analogy if you had mentioned the fact that some copiers are specifically design to refuse to copy money.

It wasn't an analogy, it was a refutation of your argument, by pointing out how absurd it is when applied to something else.

And, you make my exact point by noting that copiers are designed to refuse to copy money. Therefore, copying money is, in fact, NOT "a core function of a copy machine". Because, look! I can make a copy machine that doesn't copy money! And it still copies other things! I DIDN'T BREAK THE COPY MACHINE!

Now, can I go in and bypass the technical capability the machine has and make it copy money? Probably, given enough time and effort. But am I doing this on a large scale, publishing my findings, and declaring to all that I'm doing this on principle and it's a good thing because I'm just enabling "the nature of a copy machine"? No, I don't. So why do you, when the subject is the Internet?

But what if the publishing industry demanding a legal solution to prevent people from copying or scanning books? Coming up with a printed page that can be easily read, but which can't be copied would be expensive and virtually impossible. So far the only solution they've come up with for making documents uncopyable is to use black ink on dark paper, which also makes them very hard to read.

The only workable method would to have the copier connect to a central database every time you scan something to compare the hash of what you've scanned with a list of know hashes for copyrighted works and refuse to work if it matches something on the list. Of course such a system would have a high failure rate, false positives and wouldn't account for fair use, essentially breaking the core functionality of the machine, but hey if it keeps people from copying copyrighted material, it's worth it. Right?

Making documents "uncopyable" or difficult to copy is a technical means of slowing piracy. The "legal solution" is the copyright law. I have no idea what your point is here.

said by MyDogHsFleas:

Not really relevant to the topic. But, I'll come back on your analogy with what the music distributors would say, which has some validity. Shoplifting one CD is a loss of 10 bucks or whatever. Putting that CD on MegaUpload or Pirate Bay is like shoplifting the entire store's inventory of that CD. Bigger crime.

You mean like the crime of leaking the workprint of the movie Wolverine a month before it hit theaters, causing the film to only make a pathetic $373 million at the box office?

Again this is not relevant to the topic. But I will point out that "you made enough money, content owners, so you should not try to stop piracy" is just a dumb argument, unless you are an "occupy " type mentality who thinks that anyone who makes "too much money" should have it taken away from them and given to you.

As a side comment... maybe they leaked it themselves to stoke publicity! It could happen....

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