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harold_h

@rogers.com
reply to LazMan

Re: [TV] Downgrade to Analogue

i think he ment the Walmart Rogers digital converters, the ones made buy scientific atlantic. they were selling for like between $40 and $50 on sales at wally mart, theyre Rogers STB's, for rogers customers, no OTV customers.



Noway

@zoominternet.net
reply to sbrook

Actually at least Armstrong in the US still has an analog lineup. No digital converters attached yet. No analog over the air left though.



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to harold_h

said by harold_h :

i think he ment the Walmart Rogers digital converters, the ones made buy scientific atlantic. they were selling for like between $40 and $50 on sales at wally mart, theyre Rogers STB's, for rogers customers, no OTV customers.

If Walmart's selling Roger's hardware, then you're absolutely right -but the only one's I've seen have been the generic "digital converters" - for OTA... I haven't seen a Roger's digital box for sale there...


news

@videotron.ca
reply to Tracer6

said by Tracer6:

What a great idea - a shared OTA tower antenna to supply signal to nearby neighbours! All could share in the cost. We did something similar for a swimming raft at the cottage.

It's called cable tv! In fact, CATV mean "Community Antenna Television".

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television


uncle ted

@uu.net

thats how ted roger started up his cable business, he put an antenna on the dorm of his private college and shared the signal with the dorm mates. makes u go hmm.hm



sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to sbrook

> All US TV is digital now.

I'm not quite sure what your comment was aimed at. When it comes to OTA - yes, the US has gone 100% digital. But I wasn't asking about OTA.

I'm asking what US *CABLE* operators are reducing the number of NTSC channels on their CABLE PLANTS as Rogers seems to be doing.

Not that I'm disputing that Rogers is handing out custom QAM boxes that must be registered to work in order to give analog TV's access to formerly analog (NTSC) channels - but can anyone verify that in those markets that Rogers has actually *removed* said NTSC channels from their cable system?

Is any other Cable operator in Canada (Shaw, Cogeco, etc) making noises about removing NTSC channels from their cable systems?



sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to LazMan

There was a thread on digitalhome giving a rogers link that in turn gave a link to a Cisco box.

Pure crap. The box has an input F connector (for your incoming coax service) and an output F connector. And a switch (channel 3/4). So you use the box's remote to tune to a channel you want to watch, and the channel is modulated to channel 3 or 4, and you tune your TV to 3/4. What a load of crap that is. That's 20-year-old VCR technology at work. The fact that the Cisco box doesn't have component, or S-video, or even composite video output is a complete deal-breaker for me. There is no reason for such limited connectivity these days.

Plus, the way I watch TV, I expect the channel to change instantly when I'm hopping around. You get that when your working with conventional NTSC channels and tuners. I hate the delay you get on digital boxes.



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to Tracer6

My Roger's SD boxes (actual digital STB's) have Co-Ax, composite, and S-Video outputs... I don't have any of the digital terminals, so don't know what they have for outputs...

As for the delay - that's just the way SDV works - if you're tuning rapidly, or if the channel you want is currently not being broadcast on your segment, it will take a moment for the channel to come available. Just the technology - I'm not defending, nor advocating - it's just a fact of life...


iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03
reply to sm5w2

said by sm5w2:

> All US TV is digital now.

I'm not quite sure what your comment was aimed at. When it comes to OTA - yes, the US has gone 100% digital. But I wasn't asking about OTA.

I'm asking what US *CABLE* operators are reducing the number of NTSC channels on their CABLE PLANTS as Rogers seems to be doing.

Not that I'm disputing that Rogers is handing out custom QAM boxes that must be registered to work in order to give analog TV's access to formerly analog (NTSC) channels - but can anyone verify that in those markets that Rogers has actually *removed* said NTSC channels from their cable system?

Is any other Cable operator in Canada (Shaw, Cogeco, etc) making noises about removing NTSC channels from their cable systems?

There are a few US cable CO's who are actually going completely SDV I believe, such as Charter in some area's and Comcast. I got a letter stating my cable card wouldn't work anymore due to SDV to free up bandwidth.


sdv guy

@uu.net
reply to sm5w2

said by sm5w2:

Pure crap. The box has an input F connector (for your incoming coax service) and an output F connector. And a switch (channel 3/4). So you use the box's remote to tune to a channel you want to watch, and the channel is modulated to channel 3 or 4, and you tune your TV to 3/4. What a load of crap that is. That's 20-year-old VCR technology at work. The fact that the Cisco box doesn't have component, or S-video, or even composite video output is a complete deal-breaker for me. There is no reason for such limited connectivity these days.

Dude, those are LOW COST solution for people who are analog migrating to digital.

if you want a SVideo or component or composite connection, i hate to break it to you but the STB rogers has been selling for the last 10 years has those connections. not sure what rock you were hiding, but get the stb if the dta adaptor does not suit your needs


sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON

Is the current analog NTSC CATV channel spectrum (channels 2 to what - 120?) broadcast from the head end to (and through) the neighborhood distribution hubs to customer drops?

Or are the analog channels transmitted from the head end to the hubs in some sort of compressed manner, and re-generated in the hub so that they appear in NTSC analog form on the customer drop. ?

I don't see how the cable companies can make use of the bandwidth that the NTSC/CATV signals currently use on the customer drops from the hubs. You remove those channels and anything the hub puts in that space is not going to be "seen" by current customer equipment (DOCSIS modems or STB's) because they weren't designed for it. Yes?

Every analog channel that currently exists in the CATV spectrum has a corresponding digital (QAM) counterpart. If these "basic cable" channels (2 through 120) are currently transmitted to the hubs all the time (ie - not selectively) in QAM format (either SDTV or HDTV) then I don't see why the analog NTSC versions of _all_ these channels can't be generated in the hub and then injected onto the customer drop.

The point being that the analog NTSC channels don't need to exist on the cable between the head-end and the hubs. If you remove them from that link, that's where you can really make use of the bandwidth they currently occupy.

I think the removal of analog channels from the hubs to the customer drops is prevent situations where someone cancels cable service but discovers that they still have a bunch of analog cable channels because a service tech didn't come around to put in a filter on their drop. I have some relatives in Windsor (Cogeco) that canceled their digital cable over 2 years ago but still get about 70 or 80 analog channels.



sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to sdv guy

> if you want a SVideo or component or composite connection, i hate
> to break it to you but the STB rogers has been selling for the last 10
> years has those connections.

If I have an SDTV (and all I want to watch is the conventional CATV spectrum - and no pay or on demand) then why would I want a digital STB? I would get no benefit from a STB, plus I'd be paying another what - $5 a month for it?

> not sure what rock you were hiding, but get the stb if the dta
> adaptor does not suit your needs

So my cable bill goes up, and I get really slow channel changing.

No thanks.

My primary TV is a 12-year-old 36" Sony WEGA, which still works great. So I wouldn't benefit from a STB.



Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON
reply to LazMan

Thanks again for your truth telling regarding Rogers shift from analogue to digital (i.e.; claiming it to be government mandated). It is clear that they have been converting digital back to analogue for years, for most of the stations. You can often see the picture blocks when signal processing fails. Years ago, before this digital to analogue conversion, this type of picture breakup never happened.
Yes, I own an over-the-air digital receiver - a good one, with analogue pass-through (now out on loan). I just haven't tried it with a good antenna yet. Walking through Canada Computers, I noticed some for $35 - not sure if they are decent.
On the topic of the recent Cogeco digital box at my mother's: Today, I tried to show a video tape on her tv. The screen went into the "...something is wrong with this service..." message as soon as I tried delivering the signal on channel 3 (same as the digital box uses). Since her tv has only one coax IN, I had to disconnect the digital box to show her the video. The only solutions seems to be an extra coax cable or two and an A/B switch.
Also, I agree with others... having noticed the delayed response in changing channels when using the digital box.
Now, I know why Shaw has been inundating Cogeco and Rogers analogue subscribers with offers of a dish and two tuners for $50 per month (over 250 channels/26 in HD) with free basic installation and no long term contracts. In most of the Shaw installations, I think extra charges might apply for anything complex.
What I do not understand is their insistence on connecting their boxes to a phone line. Is this just in cases where you wish to download movies, or perhaps make use of the HD channels?



svd guy

@uu.net
reply to sm5w2

said by sm5w2:

> if you want a SVideo or component or composite connection, i hate
> to break it to you but the STB rogers has been selling for the last 10
> years has those connections.

If I have an SDTV (and all I want to watch is the conventional CATV spectrum - and no pay or on demand) then why would I want a digital STB? I would get no benefit from a STB, plus I'd be paying another what - $5 a month for it?

> not sure what rock you were hiding, but get the stb if the dta
> adaptor does not suit your needs

So my cable bill goes up, and I get really slow channel changing.

No thanks.

My primary TV is a 12-year-old 36" Sony WEGA, which still works great. So I wouldn't benefit from a STB.

if u dont wanna pay extra, then use the FREE DTA adaptor, thats why its free its a stripped down STB, its low cost and cheap, just like you are.


sdv guy1

@uu.net
reply to Tracer6

said by Tracer6:

Thanks again for your truth telling regarding Rogers shift from analogue to digital (i.e.; claiming it to be government mandated). It is clear that they have been converting digital back to analogue for years, for most of the stations. You can often see the picture blocks when signal processing fails. Years ago, before this digital to analogue conversion, this type of picture breakup never happened.
Yes, I own an over-the-air digital receiver - a good one, with analogue pass-through (now out on loan). I just haven't tried it with a good antenna yet. Walking through Canada Computers, I noticed some for $35 - not sure if they are decent.
On the topic of the recent Cogeco digital box at my mother's: Today, I tried to show a video tape on her tv. The screen went into the "...something is wrong with this service..." message as soon as I tried delivering the signal on channel 3 (same as the digital box uses). Since her tv has only one coax IN, I had to disconnect the digital box to show her the video. The only solutions seems to be an extra coax cable or two and an A/B switch.
Also, I agree with others... having noticed the delayed response in changing channels when using the digital box.
Now, I know why Shaw has been inundating Cogeco and Rogers analogue subscribers with offers of a dish and two tuners for $50 per month (over 250 channels/26 in HD) with free basic installation and no long term contracts. In most of the Shaw installations, I think extra charges might apply for anything complex.
What I do not understand is their insistence on connecting their boxes to a phone line. Is this just in cases where you wish to download movies, or perhaps make use of the HD channels?

put the cable line, to the DTA adaptor, the F-type out will go into the input of her vcr, and the output will go to the f-type on the tv. problem solved


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to sm5w2

said by sm5w2:

If I have an SDTV (and all I want to watch is the conventional CATV spectrum - and no pay or on demand) then why would I want a digital STB? I would get no benefit from a STB, plus I'd be paying another what - $5 a month for it?

No thanks.

My primary TV is a 12-year-old 36" Sony WEGA, which still works great. So I wouldn't benefit from a STB.

You've got to stick to one argument... The current f-connected co-ax is fine; but using an f-connector on the free DTA isn't acceptable on your decade-old TV; but you're not prepared to spend 4.95/mth on an STB that does provide the connectors you say you want...

Some people just aren't happy unless they're unhappy. You're coming across like one of them here.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to Tracer6

said by Tracer6:

Also, I agree with others... having noticed the delayed response in changing channels when using the digital box.
Now, I know why Shaw has been inundating Cogeco and Rogers analogue subscribers with offers of a dish and two tuners for $50 per month (over 250 channels/26 in HD) with free basic installation and no long term contracts. In most of the Shaw installations, I think extra charges might apply for anything complex.
What I do not understand is their insistence on connecting their boxes to a phone line. Is this just in cases where you wish to download movies, or perhaps make use of the HD channels?

The phone connection serves a couple of purposes - allows PPV billing, confirms the box is where it's "supposed" to be (based on caller ID - keeps people from splitting accounts), and allows software updates to be pushed out to the boxes.

Shaw Direct/Starchoice has the least compression on HD of any mass-distribution system, at the trade-off of having the fewest HD channels...


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to sm5w2

said by sm5w2:

Is the current analog NTSC CATV channel spectrum (channels 2 to what - 120?) broadcast from the head end to (and through) the neighborhood distribution hubs to customer drops?

Yup. That's exactly how analog distrubtion works.

said by sm5w2:

I don't see how the cable companies can make use of the bandwidth that the NTSC/CATV signals currently use on the customer drops from the hubs. You remove those channels and anything the hub puts in that space is not going to be "seen" by current customer equipment (DOCSIS modems or STB's) because they weren't designed for it. Yes?

Hence the need for the DTA/STB for TV's. STB's, DTA's and DOCSIS enabled modems do have access to the channel space...

said by sm5w2:

Every analog channel that currently exists in the CATV spectrum has a corresponding digital (QAM) counterpart. If these "basic cable" channels (2 through 120) are currently transmitted to the hubs all the time (ie - not selectively) in QAM format (either SDTV or HDTV) then I don't see why the analog NTSC versions of _all_ these channels can't be generated in the hub and then injected onto the customer drop.

They can be - but by freeing up space on the local plant, additional bandwidth for VOD, faster internet speeds, and other apprlications is free'd up - can't have the best of both worlds - to make room for faster/more services, the analog distribution has to go...

Don't know if I can make it any simpler - it's an either/or situation - either analog video distribution, or faster internet and more VoD services - can't have both...


sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to LazMan

> You've got to stick to one argument... The current f-connected
> co-ax is fine;

Because it goes right into my tv, where I use only 1 remote control to watch TV, and get as little deterioration of the signal as possible as opposed to re-modulation that happens on the free box.

> but using an f-connector on the free DTA isn't acceptable on your
> decade-old TV;

For reason stated above. Slow channel changing, multi-remote hassles, signal re-modulation. And now I need 1 box for every TV in the house? And now I will need to pay for each additional box beyond the first one? What a crock of sh*t.

> but you're not prepared to spend 4.95/mth on an STB that does
> provide the connectors you say you want...

And how many STB's will I need? And how much will that cost? And how many remote controls will I need to juggle?

It's a crock of sh*t that rogers doesn't broadcast basic digital cable channels in clear QAM. At least with my existing digital TV's I wouldn't need to use converter boxes.

> Some people just aren't happy unless they're unhappy. You're coming
> across like one of them here.

I have several CCTV cameras that I remodulate onto channels 100+ and I mix them into my CCTV distribution amp and combine with incoming Rogers coax and that goes to all TV's in the house. I like the way I have it setup. Removal of analog cable channels by Rogers = goodbye rogers, hello OTA.

It's more $$$ upfront in terms of tower, mast, rotator, antenna, pre-amp, and (unfortunately) OTA convertor box (with descent output options) for my WEGA. And as I experience the superior clarity of OTA on my digital TV's (which blows away so-called hi-def digital channels on cable) I will eventually replace my WEGA.



dtv guy

@uu.net

said by sm5w2:

For reason stated above. Slow channel changing, multi-remote hassles, signal re-modulation. And now I need 1 box for every TV in the house? And now I will need to pay for each additional box beyond the first one? What a crock of sh*t.

>
>

And how many STB's will I need? And how much will that cost? And how many remote controls will I need to juggle?

The funny thing is, satelight dish customers have a receiver on each tv set, and also know how to use the dish remote to control all their devices, they seem to be happy with that, they simply accept it, why can't you? maybe your asking for too much?

ok mr hot shot, if the cable company decides to turn on clear quam, and i want a specialty pay channel, how do u suppose i will receive it without my neighbours watcing it for free when i have to pay for it? well what do u know, thats what the STB was invented for, its called a cable subscription.


sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to LazMan

> Don't know if I can make it any simpler - it's an either/or situation -
> either analog video distribution, or faster internet and more VoD
> services - can't have both...

What I'm saying is -> if the analog channels (2 to 120) are currently present on the link between the head-end and the hubs, then remove them. Repurpose that spectrum on those links. That's where you need more digital bandwidth - not the customer drops from the hubs.

Meanwhile, at the hubs, have the hubs re-generate the entire 2 to 120 analog channel spectrum and throw it on the customer drops. If you need to, have some outputs at the hubs that won't have the analog channels. Connect those up to customers that need the additional digital bandwidth and don't care about the missing analog channels.



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada

I give up...



sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to dtv guy

> ok mr hot shot, if the cable company decides to turn on clear quam,
> and i want a specialty pay channel, how do u suppose i will receive it

If you ever want to watch a pay channel, then you're going to have to have the CableCo's STB to see it. I'm not disputing that or saying it can be done without a box.

> without my neighbours watcing it for free when i have to pay for it?

Funny thing is that here in London, with my cable feed running directly into my HDTV (what else can I do? I don't have a box) -> I can watch some On-demand and (I think) PPV stuff on some of the channels between 81-nnn and 85-nnn. In the clear. Sometimes the video is paused, fast-forwarded and re-wind (by who-ever has ordered it I suppose).

> well what do u know, thats what the STB was invented for, its
> called a cable subscription.

Still doesn't explain why basic digital cable channels can't be clear-QAM'd. If the CableCo's need to efficiently regulate (ie - turn on or turn off a customer drop) I'm surprised they can't do that at the hub - instead of needing a tech to install a blocker. For those situations where they can remotely turn on or off a drop, then there's really no reason to NOT put basic cable in the clear.



dtv guy

@uu.net

because a STB can Turn ON OR OFF a subscription, ADD CHANNELS, DELETE CHANNELS. Clear QAM can NOT do that, without a truck roll. truck rolls cost money, a digital stb or even the cheap o DTA adaptors eliminate UNNECESSARY TRUCK ROLLS.

instead of dispatching a technician a week later to your place cus u want the super channel or the movie network, and you getting pissed off why its taking so long, the tech simply turns it on in the SGI and its instantly avaiable on your tv. and since u have a hd box, u get it in crystal clear hd, where if u had the clear qyam, it may be encrypted still.

hope this finally sinks in.



Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON

Well now, I've learned a lot after starting this thread - hoping to make a decision about dropping Rogers.

I've learned (although not understanding all acronyms):

1. The change from analogue to digital is entirely a business decision by Rogers - to improve, not the standard television subscriber experience, but to increase data flow for their Internet and video-on-demand subscribers. I will never subscribe to either. Although I might ask Teksavvy to hook me up to the Net with the Rogers cable instead of DSL on a Bell line, someday in the future. (No Bell Fibe here yet either.)

2. I can either take it or leave it. By that, I mean, I take the standard definition digital box (STB, I think) for our main tv (and lose the ability to record while watching another channel, and suffer from slow channel surfing), or switch to another option (dish or OTA).

3. If I stay with Rogers, I must wire the cable first to the digital box, then to the VCR/DVR, then out to the tv, in order to see content from both. I presume that I can record whatever I am watching at the moment under this hook-up (Duh! - should have thought of it myself, but wires were running through little holes in back of the cabinet).

4. Rogers will actually give me a second, identical remote for controlling their box from different room locations. (One set of batteries supplied, I presume.)

5. Rogers gives you poor quality STB boxes for free, which appears to be my only choice for continuing with their service.

6. Rogers has increased pricing for cable at a staggering rate. (They must be printing money at the head office.)

7. Moving to dish is not trouble free, at least for Shaw, because of the need for hard wired phone connections to each box. (Actually, I see $100 worth of adapters would let the phone signals communicate through the existing 110v wiring, to two dish boxes, without hard wiring.)

8. I can use one OTA (over the air) antenna, on a tower (with rotor perhaps), to share reception amongst several tv in the house, each with its own digital receiver and controller. The initial cost might be high, but the savings could be huge considering the monthly cost for cable and dish.

9. When my analogue cable channels are reduced to only those below 29, the signal for these channels may still exist on the line for a long time. If Rogers kept just a few of these analogue channels active for a cheap price, they might keep a few more customers. (Hence, no need for a truck roll to cut my line.)

10. From another thread, I learned that it is possible to establish a Dish Network account here in Canada. It's a bit tricky (regarding billing and US phone number and adress), but it can be done. (Not my cup of tea!)



sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to dtv guy

> because a STB can Turn ON OR OFF a subscription, ADD CHANNELS,
> DELETE CHANNELS. Clear QAM can NOT do that, without a truck roll.
> truck rolls cost money, a digital stb or even the cheap o DTA
> adaptors eliminate UNNECESSARY TRUCK ROLLS.

What is the common denominator for ANYONE that has cable TV?

Itin't it the lineup of BASIC CABLE CHANNELS?

Channels 2 to what - 30?

Regardless if they're SD or HD (NTSC or QAM) - EVERYONE gets a set of BASIC CHANNELS don't they? If so, then why would you NOT transmit the basic QAM channels in the clear?

So even if I'm forced to take a box, I can still choose not to use it, and instead I'll connect the cable to every SD and HD tv in the house and they'll all be able to display the basic channels.

The STB is a separate issue. If I don't have a STB because I didn't want one, then of course I can't expect them to be able to perform any changes / additions instantly, electronically.



sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
reply to Tracer6

> I can use one OTA (over the air) antenna, on a tower (with rotor
> perhaps), to share reception amongst several tv in the house, each
> with its own digital receiver and controller. The initial cost might be
> high, but the savings could be huge considering the monthly cost for
> cable and dish.

You won't need a converter box for OTA for any wide-screen (LCD or Plasma) TV's. Only for older TV's that are not wide-screen or that have a glass picture tube (there are some rare exceptions).

Here is a link to a compass diagram showing what OTA channels are available in Bowmanville:

»www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapp···f8c2f6aa

It looks like you really have no OTA channels within a radius of about 40 miles, but between 40 and 60 you have about 16-18 channels - all of them LOS (line of sight). A moderately large UHF antenna with a pre-amp mounted 30 feet off the ground should pull them in.

As for US stations, it looks like you'd get PBS and CBS and maybe FOX, with ABC and NBC being a toss-up. These would all be Buffalo area stations. TVO, City, Global, CBC look good, but not CTV.



Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada
reply to sm5w2

not everyone who has a cable into their house is paying for TV service, they pay for INTERNET and PHONE, but they may not be paying for BASIC cable. if they do not pay for BASIC CABLE, then what does roger do? they ENCRYPT THE BASIC cable channels. if you PAY for cable, you will receive a FREE DTA adaptor that will DECRYPT them. This is how it works, its not hard to understand. I dont pay for cable? then I do not receive channels. it makes perfect sense from a consumer and a business standpoint.
--
Happiness is like peeing your pants... Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its Warmth!!



yyzlhr

@rogers.com
reply to sm5w2

said by sm5w2:

> because a STB can Turn ON OR OFF a subscription, ADD CHANNELS,
> DELETE CHANNELS. Clear QAM can NOT do that, without a truck roll.
> truck rolls cost money, a digital stb or even the cheap o DTA
> adaptors eliminate UNNECESSARY TRUCK ROLLS.

What is the common denominator for ANYONE that has cable TV?

Itin't it the lineup of BASIC CABLE CHANNELS?

Channels 2 to what - 30?

Regardless if they're SD or HD (NTSC or QAM) - EVERYONE gets a set of BASIC CHANNELS don't they? If so, then why would you NOT transmit the basic QAM channels in the clear?

So even if I'm forced to take a box, I can still choose not to use it, and instead I'll connect the cable to every SD and HD tv in the house and they'll all be able to display the basic channels.

The STB is a separate issue. If I don't have a STB because I didn't want one, then of course I can't expect them to be able to perform any changes / additions instantly, electronically.

Basic channels will still be available without a digital adapter. Only channels that are above the basic tier are being transitioned to digital.


p weezy

@rogers.com

for now