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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to elray

Re: CPR pays PR dividends

said by elray:

But AT&T really wanted to make a statement, they'd put an AED on every truck.

CPR alone, itself isn't much of a game-changer.

I'm not sure Christine Duffy or her daughter (when she's old enough) would agree with your assessment that CPR isn't a game-changer.

And actually, in this case, CPR and an AED would have done nothing to save the baby. An AED wouldn't even charge and fire if the person still has a heart beat, which the baby did. And CPR wasn't necessary since the heart was still beating as well. Rescue breathing would be necessary if the person wasn't breathing but had a heart beat. What this baby needed was the infant Heimlich Maneuver, which the tech administered.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
said by cdru:

An AED wouldn't even charge and fire if the person still has a heart beat, which the baby did.

Who told you that? An AED will fire in cases of tachycardia and fibrillation. That's the whole point of an AED. If you learned otherwise you should fire the person doing first aid training for your company. From Wikipedia, emphasis mine:

An automated external defibrillator is used in cases of life threatening cardiac arrhythmias which lead to cardiac arrest. The rhythms that the device will treat are usually limited to:

1. Pulseless Ventricular tachycardia (shortened to VT or V-Tach)[1]
2. Ventricular fibrillation (shortened to VF or V-Fib)

In each of these two types of shockable cardiac arrhythmia, the heart is active, but in a life-threatening, dysfunctional pattern. In ventricular tachycardia, the heart beats too fast to effectively pump blood. Ultimately, ventricular tachycardia leads to ventricular fibrillation. In ventricular fibrillation, the electrical activity of the heart becomes chaotic, preventing the ventricle from effectively pumping blood. The fibrillation in the heart decreases over time, and will eventually reach asystole.


Fronkman
An Apple a day keeps the doctor away
Premium
join:2003-06-23
Saint Louis, MO
said by Crookshanks:

said by cdru:

An AED wouldn't even charge and fire if the person still has a heart beat, which the baby did.

Who told you that? An AED will fire in cases of tachycardia and fibrillation. That's the whole point of an AED. If you learned otherwise you should fire the person doing first aid training for your company. From Wikipedia, emphasis mine:

except it was a baby.

almost all significant issues in emergency pediatric care are related to airway/breathing problems. fix those and everything else will recover. babies don't have VT/VF, an AED will not do them any good.

in fact, the NRP (neonatal resuscitation program) guidelines, which govern resuscitation of newborn infants states that you must make great effort to provide adequate ventilation before beginning chest compressions or giving epinephrine.

(from someone certified in BLS, ACLS, ATLS and NRP)
--
Everyone should own a Mac! Go Bucks!

elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
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·EarthLink
reply to cdru
said by cdru:

said by elray:

But AT&T really wanted to make a statement, they'd put an AED on every truck.

CPR alone, itself isn't much of a game-changer.

I'm not sure Christine Duffy or her daughter (when she's old enough) would agree with your assessment that CPR isn't a game-changer.

Indeed, in this particular case, it is the CPR *training* which paid off.
Who said otherwise?


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to Crookshanks
said by Crookshanks:

Who told you that? An AED will fire in cases of tachycardia and fibrillation. That's the whole point of an AED. If you learned otherwise you should fire the person doing first aid training for your company. From Wikipedia, emphasis mine:

In both cases, the person almost guaranteed to be unconscious before the AED would fire. A baby who is choking is not unconscious. A baby who requires a few thrusts on the back and then is smiling and laughing a few moments later is not unconscious. One of the first things that we've been instructed every time that I've been certified with CPR and AED is to check to see if the person is conscious and if they are, just monitor the situation and not start compressing, breathing, and shocking.

I oversimplified it when I said if the patient has a heartbeat, but I'll stand by what I originally wrote when it isn't taken out of context. CPR and an AED wasn't necessary, and in this case wouldn't have done anything.


SmokChsr
Who let the magic smoke out?
Premium
join:2006-03-17
Saint Augustine, FL
reply to Crookshanks
said by Crookshanks:

Who told you that? An AED will fire in cases of tachycardia and fibrillation. That's the whole point of an AED. If you learned otherwise you should fire the person doing first aid training for your company.

Umm.. I think there may be a difference in terminology, otherwise perhaps you need to go back to first aid training.

An AED should not shock (or be requested to shock) if a pulse is present. Most people refer to a heart beat as when you can feel a pulse. Pulse less Vtach and VFib are not really considered heartbeats. If you listen to either of those rhythms with a stethoscope you will not hear a thump thump, nor will you feel a pulse.

Now since electrically VTach (with a pulse) and Pulse-less VTach will look the same to the AED, you can possibly shock a Vtach patient, even though you are not supposed to. The AED will tell you to "Check for Pulse" if you feel one and follow instructions, it will not shock. You would have to tell the AED there was no pulse before it will shock.

Some AED's do have a medical override which no one below a Paramedic should even think about using.

PS, Florida Paramedic.