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NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
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NetFixer to jvmorris

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to jvmorris

Re: FBI:paying cash cup of cofee: 147;Potential terrorist activi

said by jvmorris:

While we're on the subject, where's the CraigsList flyer issued by the FBI?

Are you sure that CraigsList is not actually an FBI honeypot?
NetFixer

NetFixer to jvmorris

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to jvmorris
said by jvmorris:

Just out of curiosity -- these establishments using internet kiosks that you have either visited or installed, do they take cash payments?

The kiosks that I installed, were self service, and they would take coins, paper currency, or credit/debit cards. The ones I have utilized (that were not my clients), would usually either take a credit/debit card swipe, or time could be purchased from the sales counter (cash or credit) with sometimes, a token or in-house magnetic swipe card being issued to be used with the kiosk.
dave
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join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave to NetFixer

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to NetFixer
said by NetFixer:

Are you seriously implying that any establishment that calls itself an "internet cafe" is not permitted to offer any service to its customers other than internet access?

No, of course not. All I'm saying that if its primary business isn't to charge people to use its (not their own) computers for net access, it's not an internet cafe, and therefore is not one of the places for which that FBI pamphlet was written. Starbucks is not an internet cafe. The bookstore is not an internet cafe. Etc.
dave

dave to jvmorris

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to jvmorris
Now you mention it, I *have* seen internet-access kiosks at both Logan and Heathrow. Though I wouldn't call them "internet cafes", since they're just dropped down in the public waiting areas and you have to buy your coffee elsewhere.

jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA

jvmorris

MVM

Yes, those are internet kiosks, not internet cafes, I agree.

For those who are interested, check out »noise.heathrowairport.co ··· 20a____/ or go to www.boingo.com, where you can likely find a rather extensive list of internet access points pretty much across the world. (Their little app actually can come in handy.) Few, if any, of the thousands of locations listed can be strictly characterized as 'internet cafes'.
jvmorris

jvmorris to dave

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to dave
said by dave:

. . . if its primary business isn't to charge people to use its (not their own) computers for net access, it's not an internet cafe, and therefore is not one of the places for which that FBI pamphlet was written. Starbucks is not an internet cafe. The bookstore is not an internet cafe. Etc.

And again, I maintain that, if it really was the intent of the FBI to so narrowly target the audience for this flyer, they screwed up.

Rather reminds me of the old joke about the somewhat inebriated golfer who wildly hooked his ball into the rough and then proceeded to methodically search for it down the fairway to the green. When asked by another member of the foursome why he was searching the fairway rather than in the rough, he replied that it would be much easier to find the ball on the fairway. (Well, something along those lines.)
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

(Also drunk searching for lost keys under a lamppost).

Sure, the flyer is too narrow. But let me recall why I've led us off in the weeds here: the OP, or perhaps the infowars web site, characterized the internet-cafe pamphlet as the FBi saying "paying cash for a cup of coffee = potential terrorist activity", and I say that's not a reasonable précis.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
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NetFixer to jvmorris

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to jvmorris
said by jvmorris:

said by dave:

. . . if its primary business isn't to charge people to use its (not their own) computers for net access, it's not an internet cafe, and therefore is not one of the places for which that FBI pamphlet was written. Starbucks is not an internet cafe. The bookstore is not an internet cafe. Etc.

And again, I maintain that, if it really was the intent of the FBI to so narrowly target the audience for this flyer, they screwed up.

I have to also wonder how they decided which establishments would qualify as "internet cafes" for flyer distribution. If they used either traditional paper or on-line yellow pages, such places as Starbucks, Panera Bread, and Bean Central are prominently listed (paid advertisements) in the "internet cafe" business category (at least in this area). Of those three businesses, all are primarily more or less traditional coffee shops, with only Bean Central actually offering on-line computer terminals and gaming consoles in some of their stores.

jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
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join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA

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jvmorris to dave

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to dave
Well, let me try to respond to that without creating another wild goose chase in the process.

First, having worked with the FBI for many years, I can speculate (and hopefully somewhat accurately) about how these flyers came to exist (for all 25 indicated business enterprise categories).
As part of the SLATT/SAR programs, some bright bulb said "Gee, I think it would be a good idea if we drew up a set of guidelines for various kinds of businesses indicating what kinds of behavior might indicate that a customer is a potential terrorist or subversive. Then, if they observed someone engaging in these kind of behaviors, they'd know to pay some attention to them and report them to us." And so they did. Unfortunately, I suspect that the original effort produced rather short lists of behaviors that would really lead a business owner/manager/employee to identify a 'person of interest'. The result, therefore, was rather disappointing. So, then, the powers that be started looking for ways to expand the list, put a bit more meat on the bones, so to speak. And one obvious way to do this is to go through the existing lists for all 25 business categories and pick out those behavioral modes that might also be applicable to some of the others but weren't in the original lists for them. And so, 'paying cash' suddenly appeared on a lot of the lists (including the one we're talking about) without a great deal of further consideration. Now, we've got some meaty lists for all 25 categories.

'Paying cash' (or perhaps 'attempting to pay cash') makes a reasonably good flag for some of these businesses, not so much for others. [Quite frankly, if I walked into an 'internet cafe', as you define it, that I wasn't a frequent customer of, I'd likely attempt to pay in cash myself -- wouldn't particularly care to give them my credit/debit card details. (It seems far too many of these places are really fronts for internet gambling or internet prostitution services and I'd be just as happy not to leave a record that I'd ever entered the premises. I'd also be leery of leaving my details in places whose main business is really internet gaming -- far too likely to have the junior hacker squad in attendance.)]
jvmorris

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said by NetFixer:

. . .
I have to also wonder how they decided which establishments would qualify as "internet cafes" for flyer distribution. . . .

I don't think the FBI did!

I suspect that the FBI simply created the original flyers and then sent them out (probably as PDF files) to local and state law enforcement agencies that they thought could use them. (There's a long list in the SLATT/SAR program documentation of LEAs participating from the beginning.)

It was then likely left as an 'exercise for the recipient' to decide to which businesses within their area of authority they would distribute the appropriate flyers. The local/state LEAs could also modify the flyers as they saw fit, also (and apparently quite a few did). Having neatly disposed of the distribution effort (from their perspective), the FBI then sat back and waited for the tips to start rolling in.

Now, the local LEAs probably thought that the original flyers, when received, were great stuff -- and then they started working on how to identify what businesses to contact. I suspect that many of them quickly found this was a time-intensive labor-consuming activity and then simply decided to post them on their publicly accessible websites.

End of story.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
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1 edit

NetFixer

Premium Member

That certainly takes into account the immutable laws of gravity.

jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA

jvmorris

MVM

Why, yes, I suppose it does.
Mele20
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join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to dave

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to dave
said by dave:

said by NetFixer:

Are you seriously implying that any establishment that calls itself an "internet cafe" is not permitted to offer any service to its customers other than internet access?

No, of course not. All I'm saying that if its primary business isn't to charge people to use its (not their own) computers for net access, it's not an internet cafe, and therefore is not one of the places for which that FBI pamphlet was written. Starbucks is not an internet cafe. The bookstore is not an internet cafe. Etc.

What's a "bookstore"? Oh, yeah, something called Borders that doesn't exist now. There are no bookstores anymore so how could there be internet access in a non-existent store? As for the library, you must make a reservation at LEAST ONE WEEK in advance you only get 50 minutes per week.

fatness
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fishing

fatness to jvmorris

to jvmorris
said by jvmorris:

While we're on the subject, where's the CraigsList flyer issued by the FBI?

Someone could make one up. I made one up for laundromats (those hotbeds of terror activity).
»Re: Do You Like Online Privacy? You May Be a Terrorist

jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA

jvmorris

MVM

said by fatness:

said by jvmorris:

While we're on the subject, where's the CraigsList flyer issued by the FBI?

Someone could make one up. I made one up for laundromats (those hotbeds of terror activity).
»Re: Do You Like Online Privacy? You May Be a Terrorist

Item 1: People who always pay cash.

fatness
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fatness

For the Craigslist terror flyer:
Item 2: People who insist on being paid in cash.

OldCop
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Re: FBI:paying cash cup of cofee: puffery

Next the FBI will insist you pay with Diners in Amsterdam Coffee Shops.

jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
MVM
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Reston, VA

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jvmorris to fatness

MVM

to fatness

Re: FBI:paying cash cup of cofee: 147;Potential terrorist activi

In New York City, people buying stuff who refuse to leave a copy of their fingerprints and iris scans.