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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to battleop

Re: BitTorrent Piracy Doesn146;t Affect US Box Office Returns

You're right.. and if you steal that TV set from Best Buy but never watch it, or intend to watch it, then you're not hurting anyone either, right?

Seriously, where do you guys come up with this crap-logic?

Explain to me how you're not acting entitled? Explain to me how you don't have to follow the rule of law because you're, I'm guessing, an "informed consumer" and you're just exercising your right.. and the stuff is "crap" anyway so you'd never buy it.. and if that is the case, as is often the argument, then why the F' are you even downloading the torrent in the first place?

People who think like you think you're intelligent.. the matter of fact is you're anything but.

Like it or not, you're not in your right to download or have something that is clearly for profit and sale when you didn't pay for it.. plain and simple, you're a thief.

What you're advocating is that since it can't be enforced, then why bother enforcing it... for that, sir, we get DRM crap that no one likes.

Seriously.. time to move out of Mom's basement already.

I can't even begin to comprehend your skewed logic here... "if I download a movie and I didn't intend to pay for it at the box office then they lose nothing".. serious? What you JUST SAID was "If I intended on stealing it, they lost nothing".. how tarded!



Xioden
Premium
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1

Piracy does not equal theft.



DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000
reply to fiberguy

said by fiberguy:

You're right.. and if you steal that TV set from Best Buy but never watch it, or intend to watch it, then you're not hurting anyone either, right?

Seriously, where do you guys come up with this crap-logic?

So your equating copy and paste with stealing a DVD out of a store?

I think you need to study a bit of logic yourself.

In fact equating replication with stealing opens all kinds of contradictions.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to fiberguy

I don't recall saying I was downloading movies. I don't go to very many movies and I don't buy very many new blue ray or dvds. Most of the stuff I buy is from a local used book store that sells used books, cds, movies, and games. I don't have to have everything the day of release.

It appears as if you are too smart to understand the meaning of the word "IF". So let me help you first with this link.

»dictionary.reference.com/browse/if

Now once you have reviewed that link and you have a better understanding of the word "IF" let me explain what I said.

"I said IF (remember the above link) I download a move and I don't intend to pay for it at the box office then they lose nothing."

They don't. No one took any money from the bank account of the movie studio and if I never intended to go to that movie they still didn't make or loose any money.

"If (again reference the above link) I download a movie instead of going then they loose money."

In this case they certainly loose money because I downloaded a movie that I would be willing to pay for at the theater but I decided to go cheap and just down load it.

"In either case how can either side track this? They can't."

They can't. The studios can't track this accurately. Any number they come up with is a guess. The torrent crowd can't come up with accurate numbers either. Anything they claim is also a guess.

Both sides are crooks.


CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2

quote:
In this case they certainly loose money because I downloaded a movie that I would be willing to pay for at the theater but I decided to go cheap and just down load it.

There is a logical difference here that the RIAA/MPAA exploits to the max. Losing something implies that you had it at one time and now you don't. That is not what is happening. What is happening is they are failing to make as much as they wanted/expected to make.

Not making what you wanted does not = losing


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to Xioden

said by Xioden:

Piracy does not equal theft.

Neither is sneaking into a movie theater without paying. Is that ok to do?


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to DataRiker

said by DataRiker:

said by fiberguy:

You're right.. and if you steal that TV set from Best Buy but never watch it, or intend to watch it, then you're not hurting anyone either, right?

Seriously, where do you guys come up with this crap-logic?

So your equating copy and paste with stealing a DVD out of a store?

I think you need to study a bit of logic yourself.

In fact equating replication with stealing opens all kinds of contradictions.

Ok how about sneaking into a movie theater without paying? nothing is getting stolen in that case either. You're just viewing content without paying for it. So basically same thing as downloadling so it should be ok then in your opinion.


Xioden
Premium
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1
reply to 88615298

Neither piracy nor trespassing in a movie theater actually harm either, so sure.


fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to Xioden

said by Xioden:

Piracy does not equal theft.

Are you ma'ad?? What the hell do you think a Pirate is?? ... do yourself a favor and go steal any pirate movie such as Pirates of the Caribbean or something and see what a pirate is, if that helps. a Pirate is a thief!

Again, with the logic already... Piracy IS theft.

"Piracy is an act of robbery or criminal violence at sea. The term can include acts committed on land, in the air, or in other major bodies of water or on a shore. It does not normally include crimes committed against persons traveling on the same vessel as the perpetrator (e.g. one passenger stealing from others on the same vessel). The term has been used to refer to raids across land borders by non-state agents."

fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to 88615298

said by 88615298:

said by DataRiker:

said by fiberguy:

You're right.. and if you steal that TV set from Best Buy but never watch it, or intend to watch it, then you're not hurting anyone either, right?

Seriously, where do you guys come up with this crap-logic?

So your equating copy and paste with stealing a DVD out of a store?

I think you need to study a bit of logic yourself.

In fact equating replication with stealing opens all kinds of contradictions.

Ok how about sneaking into a movie theater without paying? nothing is getting stolen in that case either. You're just viewing content without paying for it. So basically same thing as downloadling so it should be ok then in your opinion.

Seriously,... no one can help you with your lack of education but yourself. You're clearly making stuff up to suit your own needs as you go along here.. again, you may think you live in a more perfect world and that you're some kind of rebel to be someone's hero for, but you're not. What you are is ill informed of the law.

Theft does not only apply to things you can touch and hold in your hand. OUR LAWS have established that intellectual property is able to be stolen as well. You're SERIOUSLY reaching here to try to make your point some how seem logical. But, in short, you're wrong.

The theft here is viewing the product with out paying for it. The "theft" may not be anything you can take with you, but it's what you failed to LEAVE BEHIND, which was your cover, your toll, your money in short.

So in your mind it must also be okay to cross a bridge with out paying a toll (I'd love to see you try that one) or to enter into an amusement park by crashing the gate (I suppose that's not theft either) or going into a rock concert with out paying.. also, I DARE you to try and get on an airplane with out paying for the ticket. PLEASE try that one.

So with the above examples which equate to our favorite topic here, tell me how any of the above is illegal while watching a movie with out paying for it is not?

It's called getting a service with out paying for it.. or in simple terms, it's trade... only YOU failed to trade.

Again as I said, time to grow up and move out of mom's basement and get with the rest of the world.

There is, however, two thoughts mixed up into one here.. Taking a movie with out paying for it is theft.. don't care how you try to skew it up to support your own f'd up way of thinking... but on the other hand there is a consumer backlash against the entertainment industry that feels that the price of movies or how they are sold and able to be used is a problem.. and in some parts I agree.

Movies are not over priced.. $8 to see a movie is nothing.. and please stop blaming hollywood for the price of a bucket of popcorn and medium drink being $14 - that's your theater, not Hollywood. As for the price of a DVD or Bluray movie, sure the prices may be high, but again you're not entitled to be entertained at a bargain price.. so don't' buy them. People say that hollywood charges too much and squanders in the face of the people.. introducing YouTube.. people have an ability to produce their own stuff.. I rarely today see people investing millions into producing top quality movies, and if they, or you, did, I"m sure you'd understand the point behind hollywood's battle against priates..

However, once I purchase a movie, it should be mine to use how I want in my own home - and that's where it ends.. in my home. It's still not mine to put on the internet.. but I should be able to stream it to myself anywhere I am and it's none of their business.. The problem is that people, such as yourself, can't respect that and stop there.. so here we are.

The more you guys try to push this idea, the more they're going to come back with PIPA and SOPA..

... YOU and your kind are to thank for this. Applaud yourself.

And do yourself a favor and please, don't ever try to use reverse psychology on me with your brand of logic because it makes me sick. I don't subscribe to your logic or theories.. so spare me the "so then X must be okay in your opinion".. I make no bones about it so you have no need to try to twist my opinions to prove my own thoughts wrong.. I am against theft, plain and simple. When I want a movie, I buy it. When I want a song, I buy it.. I don't go on line and steal it. If everyone believed as you, then there would be no entertainment industry for you to steal from anymore. got it? But I'm sure in your mind it's okay because there are still enough suckers out there paying,... so you don't have to.

Plain and simple, you're and those like you are thieves..

fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to CXM_Splicer

I agree with you on many levels that the arguments made by the RIAA and MPAA is off and dis-genuine. They demonstrate that they're not competent at running a business, or an industry for that matter. (And contrary to popular belief, THEY are not "the industry".. they just represent a good portion of it.. they're just PART of an "industry" at best)

One thing I won't budge on is theft.. taking a product or service with out paying for it and snubbing one's nose at the law in this case is theft and I don't think anyone here can say they are not aware that laws exists. But with that said, .....

The music industry is upset they aren't making the money they'd like, but they fail to see why and state the truth.

They say that 750,000 jobs are lost due to theft and piracy which with out even doing any research on this matter is false. They never state where these jobs are lost, for one. And second they forget that they're actually making more movies today than they were even 20 years ago,.. yet they're losing jobs? That's pure FUD.

Movie attendance is down especially these days for a few reasons, but the uber rich can never see this fact. (Many rich people are out of touch these days and I see it in real life experience on a daily basis. The economy sucks right now! It's not the price of a ticket alone that is the reason, per say, but the price of the snacks which people equate to the over all cost of a movie - so they don't go. Theater tickets can be had anywhere from$5 for a matinee up to $15 depending on the theater and experience but the average ticket cost is about $9.00 for adults. It's not a huge deal breaker for many.. but introducing the home theater.

People are waiting for movies to come out on DVD and BR.. more people, especially who are too busy these days busting their butts to make the money to spend, aren't necessarily in a hurry to rush to a theater to see a movie any more. They'd rather buy the DVD or such for about $20 and stay at home and watch it.. There's nothing wrong with this.. it's just another step in evolution. Home movie experience is much better today than 20 years ago.

Movie actors are running out of control with their pay requirements... Tom Cruise anyone?? The spoiled brat expects WAY too much money for putting on his little plays than what most people think is reasonable.. that eats up a HUGE chunk of the profit that hollywood wants to make.. when the revenue falls, hollywood once again turns to the argument that theft is "the cause of loss revenue".. it's a dis-genuine argument to be made, backed by propaganda to make people believe it's a valid point. THIS is where I have my issues.

Next comes the people themselves... there are too many IDIOTS (we call them sheep) who blindly idolize these actors because they're something special and can't be bothered with little things like facts as to how these wonderful people are a major cause as to why they can't stream movies easily at home, or pay as much as they do for the DVDs and so on. Anyone who's been on facebook as can whitness as stupid post with no substance get thousands of likes followed by thousands of replies of "I love you" and "you're awesome!" and "I want your baby" should tell you what I'm talking about.. people just can't be bothered to be informed.

But, being informed has nothing to do with trying to put a legitimate face on piracy either. The way you change an industry is to stand up against what you don't believe in and not patronize it.. you exercise your right not to patronize something. However, people feel that entertainment is about on the same line as a public utility and that they have a right to have it, when they don't.

The two AAs can't adapt to the change in our evolutionary ways so instead of embracing it and innovating to meet the requests of their customers, the old dinosaur executives continue to think that their 1950's logic will win in the end, and when it doesn't they can manipulate the market with congress which only pisses people off.

Amazon has the right theory working for them with their prime streaming service. I am a member of prime for $79 a year.. I LOVE the free 2 day shipping and $3.99 over night service which wins my business.. I love the streaming as a perk. They aren't too blind to look past a single profit center to realize that prime video benefits them in their retail side to see that the loss they take on the streaming video is more than made up in their retail.. so they see it as a marketing expense. All too many executives have to have a profit in EVERY profit center, or it's a failure.. it's one of the biggest mistakes made in business today.

Hollywood just needs to encourage purchase and reward loyal customers (as amazon does, many times over) and they will win in the end.. and cut out the crap of trying to put leashes on people and take the FUN out of ENTERTAINMENT with their crap. People like me, for example, don't spend thousands of dollars on home entertainment equipment just to be told how I can and can't use it and later find the investment I made to be useless because some exec woke up and farted too hard one morning. I find it insulting because my income level doesn't allow me the freedom to throw thousands around like they do and not be insulted when my money is wasted because I, unlike many of them, bust my ass to make the money I do, while they can buy their profit off the backs of others...

In short, Hollywood needs to be proactive and change with the times and stop trying so hard to criminalize their own customers. There will always be thieves, but I don't see where they are losing billions like they say they are.. I'm not willing to give up my freedoms in this country because of some battle they have over the pond.. but I still respect the law which is why I don't steal.


fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to battleop

How is the music/movie industry crooks for offering a product for sale? You make no sense.. not in this particular case.

And still, define "if" all you want.. and I'm far more intelligent than you give me credit for to know what I'm talking about. Your entire point blows up when you say "they're losing nothing IF i never INTENDED ON PAYING FOR IT"... where they lost is when you GOT BENEFIT OF VIEWING IT, with out paying for it.. that's the point you, and many miss.

I don't hurt the airlines when I hop on a plane for free, you know, because I never intended on paying for it in the first place.. but IF i had INTENDED ON PAYING FOR IT, then they'd experience a loss. They LOST when I sat my ass in a seat with out paying for it.. then again, that would never happen because, you know, those evil airlines are using the government resources and tax payer money to enforce what equates to a private industry.. the same as the entertainment industry is.

"IF" as you focus your entire point, doesn't work here... in fact it just makes you look completely uneducated, and I know from your other posts that you're better than that.

Yes, they can't monetize their losses.. it's a WELL KNOWN FACT that courts have a hard time monetizing future losses and often can't, don't, or simply won't award for that. This is a whole other issue. Hollywood's losses are real, but I don't think piracy, while wrong, is where there losses are. Their business model is out of the 80's while we've all moved on to the '10's... they need to catch up and they can realize their business model will stop suffering. They can't stop all piracy but they CAN make their customers happy and encourage more people to buy.. then they can sell less to make more money.. it's called streamlining - every business that survives today has to do the same in order to survive. Those who don't decline and that's where the entertainment giants are today.

But IF, as you focus on here, is failing to make your point.



88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to Xioden

said by Xioden:

Neither piracy nor trespassing in a movie theater actually harm either, so sure.

Really not paying for stuff you should is ok? Nice morals.


88615298
Premium
join:2004-07-28
West Tenness
reply to fiberguy

said by fiberguy:

Seriously,... no one can help you with your lack of education but yourself. You're clearly making stuff up to suit your own needs as you go along here.. again, you may think you live in a more perfect world and that you're some kind of rebel to be someone's hero for, but you're not. What you are is ill informed of the law.

Theft does not only apply to things you can touch and hold in your hand. OUR LAWS have established that intellectual property is able to be stolen as well. You're SERIOUSLY reaching here to try to make your point some how seem logical. But, in short, you're wrong.

The theft here is viewing the product with out paying for it. The "theft" may not be anything you can take with you, but it's what you failed to LEAVE BEHIND, which was your cover, your toll, your money in short.

So in your mind it must also be okay to cross a bridge with out paying a toll (I'd love to see you try that one) or to enter into an amusement park by crashing the gate (I suppose that's not theft either) or going into a rock concert with out paying.. also, I DARE you to try and get on an airplane with out paying for the ticket. PLEASE try that one.

So with the above examples which equate to our favorite topic here, tell me how any of the above is illegal while watching a movie with out paying for it is not?

It's called getting a service with out paying for it.. or in simple terms, it's trade... only YOU failed to trade.

Again as I said, time to grow up and move out of mom's basement and get with the rest of the world.

There is, however, two thoughts mixed up into one here.. Taking a movie with out paying for it is theft.. don't care how you try to skew it up to support your own f'd up way of thinking... but on the other hand there is a consumer backlash against the entertainment industry that feels that the price of movies or how they are sold and able to be used is a problem.. and in some parts I agree.

Movies are not over priced.. $8 to see a movie is nothing.. and please stop blaming hollywood for the price of a bucket of popcorn and medium drink being $14 - that's your theater, not Hollywood. As for the price of a DVD or Bluray movie, sure the prices may be high, but again you're not entitled to be entertained at a bargain price.. so don't' buy them. People say that hollywood charges too much and squanders in the face of the people.. introducing YouTube.. people have an ability to produce their own stuff.. I rarely today see people investing millions into producing top quality movies, and if they, or you, did, I"m sure you'd understand the point behind hollywood's battle against priates..

However, once I purchase a movie, it should be mine to use how I want in my own home - and that's where it ends.. in my home. It's still not mine to put on the internet.. but I should be able to stream it to myself anywhere I am and it's none of their business.. The problem is that people, such as yourself, can't respect that and stop there.. so here we are.

The more you guys try to push this idea, the more they're going to come back with PIPA and SOPA..

... YOU and your kind are to thank for this. Applaud yourself.

And do yourself a favor and please, don't ever try to use reverse psychology on me with your brand of logic because it makes me sick. I don't subscribe to your logic or theories.. so spare me the "so then X must be okay in your opinion".. I make no bones about it so you have no need to try to twist my opinions to prove my own thoughts wrong.. I am against theft, plain and simple. When I want a movie, I buy it. When I want a song, I buy it.. I don't go on line and steal it. If everyone believed as you, then there would be no entertainment industry for you to steal from anymore. got it? But I'm sure in your mind it's okay because there are still enough suckers out there paying,... so you don't have to.

Plain and simple, you're and those like you are thieves..

Excuse me by why are you saying all this stuff to ME? Seriously why are you bashing ME? I'm anti-pirate if you actually READ what I wrote.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to fiberguy

I agree with most of what you said., though I don't have any beef with the industry beyond their 'tactics'. You won't budge on theft... thats fine; you are entitled to your opinion as am I. One thing I will mention though is that in your model, it is the use of the content without payment that constitutes theft. This is not reality, none of the laws are actually against THAT. As an easy demonstration, if I borrow a DVD from a friend, I can watch the movie without paying anyone anything yet no theft has occurred. So it is actually not the viewing of the content that constitutes anything 'wrong'. Of course your rebuttal would be that my friend paid for the DVD so there is no theft. That bypasses the point that I watched the movie without paying. As soon as you allow the sharing of a DVD with a friend (or two or ten), you encounter the logical problem that the sharing method is really immaterial to the fact that the content is being legally shared. It is simply not as cut-and-dry theft as people claim it to be.

quote:
The way you change an industry is to stand up against what you don't believe in and not patronize it.

Yes, that is one way. Snubbing one's nose at the law is another very well documented way to get things changed. Especially when that law is the only thing that allows the business with an outdated model to continue.

Ultimately, what the consumers want is instant access to the voluminous content. This is easy to accomplish but the industry is refusing to listen. Consumer demand is what drives the free market and dictates what products the corporations make. Unfortunately, the corporations in this case think it is the other way around. Only by continuing to demonstrate the 'proper' product to industry (whether legally or illegally) will they finally realize that THAT is where the money is.

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to 88615298

so we should associate human morality with the consumption of goods in a society centered around the greed and desire to hoard that characterizes the human condition?

If what you say is true, why don't you spend more time harping on the entertainment industry's hijacking of the political process for alleges monetary gain at the expense of human rights and Democratic principles?


sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to fiberguy

Your ranting makes rush Limbaugh seem well behaved.



battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to fiberguy

"... YOU and your kind are to thank for this. Applaud yourself."

Are you even reading my posts? WHERE did I ever say that I was downloading content? WHERE did I endorse it? You keep saying that I am downloading content when I am not. You keep accusing me of using bittorrent or getting content through other illegal means.

At no time did I say that I was doing anything of the such. Those were examples (remember the pesky word "IF") that lead up to my statement that the stats given by both sides are pretty much bullshit.


fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to 88615298

Me thinks I hit reply to the wrong part of the threat.. my mistake.. sorry B.


fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to sonicmerlin

said by sonicmerlin:

Your ranting makes rush Limbaugh seem well behaved.

Oh, I'm terribly sorry that I was raised with morals and that I don't spend my time trying to find ways to tear down a society over a fucking movie that people feel entitled to. Society isn't important.. so please,.. I'll stand aside while the hackers around here enjoy finding new ways to convince themselves they're right on their skewed views.

Seriously...

talz13

join:2006-03-15
Avon, OH
reply to fiberguy

said by fiberguy:

Movies are not over priced.. $8 to see a movie is nothing.. and please stop blaming hollywood for the price of a bucket of popcorn and medium drink being $14 - that's your theater, not Hollywood.

Well, at least on that part, Hollywood can be to blame because they do not share enough profit from the new releases with the theaters that they are shown in. I think the business model is something like, initially almost all of the money goes to Hollywood, and as time goes on more of the money goes to the theater (usually around the time that everybody who wanted to see the movie has already seen it). So the theaters have to charge high prices for concessions just to cover the costs of staying in business, since they're not making any money selling those overpriced tickets.