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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall to drew

MVM

to drew

Re: [Cataclysm] An excellent post on LFR

said by drew:

Good lord. Please actually read the post. Saying that I said that is so wrong.

From your post....
quote:
I just want them to remember the players that helped make the game successful enough to launch it into the straosphere. Throw us a bone.

So you didn't say that? The players that launched the game into the stratosphere aren't hardcore raiders.

I don't deny that you may have a point, that people who have been raiding just to see content, may in fact leave for LFR groups. Its too soon to tell though if that is going to happen. Right now, normal/heroic raids are still going strong. My brother plays and the LFR hasn't affected his guild in the slightest. Your use of words such as "I suspect" casts a shadow of doubt on your assessment. More time is needed before we can come to that conclusion.

I firmly believe that LFR won't kill off organized raid groups. These groups will still be raiding normal/heroic modes for great gear. These groups will still be looking for the next challenge. For those players who will never make it in those groups, this LFR system will retain those players because they will be able to experience the content without the grind.

IMHO, the only people who are against people seeing the content without the hard work are the elitist raiders. Loot isn't an issue since the best loot is still handed out in the normal/heroic raids. I really do believe that it has to do with an elitist attitude. So far, you or the numerous posts I have read on the WoW forums have only solidified my standing.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

Without the initial group of MMO players making the game and raving about it, there never would have been the explosion there was.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by drew:

Without the initial group of MMO players making the game and raving about it, there never would have been the explosion there was.

Without the casual players in the game, or the other 98% today, the game would be stuck with a couple servers and a EVE Online like population base of about 500,000 people.

WoW is trying to appeal to both sides, and I think they are doing a darn good job at doing it.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

Maybe, but maybe not.

At least you understood what I said this time.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by drew:

Maybe, but maybe not.

At least you understood what I said this time.

Yup, I understood completely the first time. You just didn't like my response.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

No, you don't. You don't have to agree with me - hardly anyone does on this topic.

But you have shown difficulty in understanding the arugment that I've made.

When you say

said by Nightfall:

Oh, and you aren't forgotten. If you want the best loot, then normal/heroic raids are the way to go. So I still don't see the issue here. Even you said that the LFR hasn't removed anyone from the raiding pool.

After I just said:
said by drew:

The LFR system hasn't removed people from the raiding pool; this is correct. However, you're talking about oranges, rather than apples. The normal+ mode raiding pool has, I suspect, shrunk. This pool was already struggling with the combined gear from 10 and 25 man, as well as specific content challenges between the raid tiers. The addition of being able to see the content outside of an organized raid (and guild in most situations) has, again I suspect, shrunk the pool further. People are naturally lazy. If all you care about is seeing the content, then you're going to take the path of least resistance.

Demonstrates you're not getting it.

JB9
Stay Gold
Premium Member
join:2009-05-14

JB9

Premium Member

drew is so pretty when he gets fiesty.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

I look a lot like this

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

said by drew:

I look a lot like this

I was going to post a link to the same thread, lol... got distracted by some chocolate in the office. (literal chocolate..)

navymaverick
join:2011-07-21
Papillion, NE

navymaverick

Member

said by Immer:

said by drew:

I look a lot like this

I was going to post a link to the same thread, lol... got distracted by some chocolate in the office. (literal chocolate..)

Wow, and man-love Thursday is still 24 hrs away.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall to drew

MVM

to drew
said by drew:

No, you don't. You don't have to agree with me - hardly anyone does on this topic.

But you have shown difficulty in understanding the arugment that I've made.

When you say

said by Nightfall:

Oh, and you aren't forgotten. If you want the best loot, then normal/heroic raids are the way to go. So I still don't see the issue here. Even you said that the LFR hasn't removed anyone from the raiding pool.

After I just said:
said by drew:

The LFR system hasn't removed people from the raiding pool; this is correct. However, you're talking about oranges, rather than apples. The normal+ mode raiding pool has, I suspect, shrunk. This pool was already struggling with the combined gear from 10 and 25 man, as well as specific content challenges between the raid tiers. The addition of being able to see the content outside of an organized raid (and guild in most situations) has, again I suspect, shrunk the pool further. People are naturally lazy. If all you care about is seeing the content, then you're going to take the path of least resistance.

Demonstrates you're not getting it.

I really understood that when you said it, and it was filled with statements that were unfounded. There has been no drop in regular/heroic raiding. You only suspect that these things are going to happen, with no real data to back them up, not even on a personal guild level. Have your raids stopped or have you found them hard to fill since the LFR system started up?

Then, on top of that, you sound like an elitist when you say that WoW should be catering to you and your like, the people who "made the game popular". You are right, I don't get the elitist attitude anymore. I used to have that kind of attitude back in the day. Now? Not so much.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

I've provided anecdotal evidence elsewhere. I believe it was in this very thread when it started months ago. If you want more of it... (but so help me God if you come back and say "we'll that's just your opinion man" or "where's the facts?")

I've been on two medium pop servers since LFR was introduced and a number of guilds that were previously struggling to get to a full clear on normal were no longer raiding normal. They stuck to fielding a 5-8 player squad for LFR. The other people either moved on to "bigger and better" things or now raid LFR exclusively.

A number of people I know on RealID that have never been amazing players now are no longer compelled to be in a "raiding guild" since they don't want to spend the time (read: put in the effort) to get properly enchanted, gemmed and reforged gear. These people are nice individuals but not great players. Before, they had a reason to put in the time. Now they don't.

I've never said this was a bad thing for them. It IS good for them. Now that they can cross-server group to queue for LFR it's even better. I TOTALLY get how great this is for the "casual" player. (Let's not get into the "what's casual?" debate). It really, really is great for them.

My argument is simply that it's really, really not great for the non-casual players. These folks, like myself, are now finding themselves without the necessary "warm bodies" to fill their raids. Whether or not this is a "good game" design is immaterial to my argument.

My hope is that Blizzard will finally say "screw it" and let us cross-server normal mode (heroic too for all I care) raid with RealID friends. This completely solves everyone's problem.

I suspect, since I don't know any bleeding edge (server-by-server, not world) raiding people any longer, that this is less of an issue for heroic raiding guilds.

For lack of a better term...it's analogous to the squeezing out of the "middle class" in WoW.

JB9
Stay Gold
Premium Member
join:2009-05-14

JB9

Premium Member

No way, blizzard wants their $25/hit per xfer.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

Thaler

Premium Member

That's why they made leveling alts so over-the-top easy.
Thaler

Thaler to drew

Premium Member

to drew
said by drew:

I've been on two medium pop servers since LFR was introduced and a number of guilds that were previously struggling to get to a full clear on normal were no longer raiding normal.

Merge guilds. Having multiple normal/heroic raiding guilds that're always struggling with attendance is silly - especially if they're making raids at approx. the same times. It's better to have one raiding guild that runs reliably every time than have 3-4 guilds having to go "aww fuck it, LFR time" whenever there's a raid.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

Ugh. Asked and answered.

Said, by me yesterday:
quote:
These people are simply critical to the raid team. LFR has provided them with a way out of the organized raid structure and into something else. This is a net positive for them but a big negative for the other half the raid. In a perfect world, my team of raiders would find the other team of raiders and join up and be on their merry way. I ask each one of you reading this to count the number of times you've seen a successful guild merger on your own realm(s). I define successful as there was little to no lag time in raiding, progression stayed on-course or improved, the guild did not implode shortly there after. That's just the reality of the situation. But nothing in this is binary, really. It's not on or off... it's much more diverse than that.



Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

Thaler

Premium Member

Unfortunately, all my case studies of guild merges are from prior to Cata - and things are different now. I'd think with raiding guilds, there's a more unifying goal than ever, especially with the existence of LFR. Where else would these normal/heroic raiders go for their fix?

Just because something was unsuccessful several generations ago doesn't guarantee failure now.

And yeah, a transition period will be messy...but it's something that's got to happen. Postponing a pruning of the dead/unnecessary just makes the problem linger.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall to drew

MVM

to drew
said by drew:

For lack of a better term...it's analogous to the squeezing out of the "middle class" in WoW.

I think the effect of this won't be felt for a while. Your experiences and mine when I ask my brother the same thing with his experience. I think that its disingenuous to say that the middle class is dying or dead at this phase.

drew
Radiant
Premium Member
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA

drew

Premium Member

said by Nightfall:

I think that its disingenuous to say that the middle class is dying or dead at this phase.

I don't, which is why my posts have been riddled with words like "I suspect" and sharing my anecdotal experience.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

said by drew:

said by Nightfall:

I think that its disingenuous to say that the middle class is dying or dead at this phase.

I don't, which is why my posts have been riddled with words like "I suspect" and sharing my anecdotal experience.

True story