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bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to Paolo

Re: [TV] Rogers Cable Going Digital: Full-Disclosure

said by Paolo:

also the selection process requires you to tell them what your viewing habbits are, ie evening, morning, late nite, etc.

AHAHAHAHA

The selection process involves having your address essentially pulled from a hat, owning a TV, agreeing to participate and to provide demographic information about all members of your household that would be participating.

That's it.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to kliles

said by kliles:

By "they can block the DVD from recording" I guess you must mean they somehow block the output to the rca jacks for *some* classes of recording? I dont see how the pvr can reach out to the DVD recorder () ... I guess an experiment is in order.

Most digital equipment supports broadcast flags, which allow broadcasters to set conditions like "do not record" or "record once". Downgrading the signal to analogue for transmissions between the devices will strip the flag.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

Why not use the digital technology and work with the cable/sat companies?

Wouldn't provide the demographic data that advertisers demand. They don't want to know how many people are watching a show, they want to know how many 18-49 year olds are watching a show. Or 18-34. Or 18-49 males. etc.


Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON
reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

Heh, that seems pretty ghetto, and doesn't really represent the majority of viewers, does it?

Why not use the digital technology and work with the cable/sat companies?

Because I gain nothing in viewing experience or in time shifting. I regain the ability to record one channel while viewing another will cost me over $500 for a Togers HD PVR, plus additional monthly fees. The older, standard broadcast PVRs are no longer sold. Used models are in such demand, I'm unlikely to find one. Buyers on Kijiji are willing to pay $200 for such units.


Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON
reply to bt

said by bt:

said by Paolo:

also the selection process requires you to tell them what your viewing habbits are, ie evening, morning, late nite, etc.

AHAHAHAHA

The selection process involves having your address essentially pulled from a hat, owning a TV, agreeing to participate and to provide demographic information about all members of your household that would be participating.

That's it.

I've always wondered how viewing habits are tracked. An even cheaper way to listen to audio signals might be to make a cold call on people, not answer when they say "Hello" and record the audio from whatever television might be on during that moments of silence before the callee hangs up. Only a small snippet of audio might be sufficient to map it to a TV show sound track. However, with digital boxes, Rogers will always know how many people are watching certain shows at a given time of day.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

said by Tracer6:

said by bt:

said by Paolo:

also the selection process requires you to tell them what your viewing habbits are, ie evening, morning, late nite, etc.

AHAHAHAHA

The selection process involves having your address essentially pulled from a hat, owning a TV, agreeing to participate and to provide demographic information about all members of your household that would be participating.

That's it.

I've always wondered how viewing habits are tracked. An even cheaper way to listen to audio signals might be to make a cold call on people, not answer when they say "Hello" and record the audio from whatever television might be on during that moments of silence before the callee hangs up. Only a small snippet of audio might be sufficient to map it to a TV show sound track. However, with digital boxes, Rogers will always know how many people are watching certain shows at a given time of day.

Huh? What if someone's TV isn't on then? This sounds insane...also, what if they don't have a home phone like myself?

True story, not everyone has a landline anymore...I wouldn't be surprised if Bell randomly opens those landlines and listens in on conversations that you have perhaps.....

Technologies change, things change, either you can A) get on board or B) get off the train.

Cable companies have decided the "benefit" of running analogue to all the TVs and having the ability to use an antiquated VCR or antiquated "Picture in Picture" TV...(which I had one growing up in 1990....I haven't seen one since)...outweighs the potential benefit to deliver the equivalent of 12 digital channels over 1 analogue channel...

In this case, 12 > 1. People want more channels, people want more HD...its cheaper for them to convert vs. going through endless upgrades of infrastructure.

So...long story short....you're not forced to use their services...also, they don't know how many people are watching certain shows at a given time...they don't care, take the tin foil hat off....Rogers has more important things to do, and to be quite honest you're not that important to know what you're watching between 1:45 and 2:00pm on any given day.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to Tracer6

said by Tracer6:

However, with digital boxes, Rogers will always know how many people are watching certain shows at a given time of day.

Except, as we've said a few times already, they don't.


Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada

Find me one VCR or DVD recorder that allows you to watch one ATSC channel while recording another? it doesnt exist, and if it did, it would probaly cost a lot. why should a cable, sat, fibe tv, company invest in this feature in their equiptment if no one ends up using it or caring about it? thats why pvrs were invented, because we the public had asked for it. i wasnt one of them who asked for pvr, but the general public did as a hole.
--
Happiness is like peeing your pants... Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its Warmth!!



Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON

If many more standard definition digital channels can be transmitted on a single removed analogue channel, and if a Rogers digital PVR (standard or not) comes equipped with two tuners (so that one channel may be recorded while watching another), why, then, does the "free" digital adapter not come with two tuners. This $40 box probably costs only $10 to make,... if that. Putting in another tuner in it would be a minor additional. Why? Because the PVRs already have two digital to analogue tuners built in. Instead, Rogers sells only HD PVRs, each with a hard drive and digital rights management software (plus a monthly digital hook-up fee). It should actually be cheaper to send multiple standard definition channels over cable, allowing me to have the same service, at the same price as I do now. The only reason it costs more is to service people who want high definition. I don't want to pay for that level of picture quality; I don't want to pay for the pleasure of HD customers. Rogers has changed the terms of service once again - involuntarily and without full disclosure of the choice viewers should have. Yes, it is a take it or leave it situation, without a clear idea of what you are taking or leaving - for most cusomers. And, as usual, not matter what the choice you make, it will cost more. So, my choice is really to continue to pay for the Sky Dome and for the purchase of CityTV, or to fly free on the Over The Air channels.
One more interesting tid bit here. I visited my aged aunt at her condo today. Cogeco gave her a HD set top box (no charge), to stay on the same plan at the same price. Yes, her HD picture is nice - and it didn't cost a cent more.



Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada

the PVR has 2 tuners inside because its easy to have it integrated into one unit, the recording is also done in the same unit, controlled by the same software/IPG.

It would be a lot harder to make a unit with 2 tuners, and output the 2nd tuner to A VCR or DVD recorder to do the recording. There is no way the dvd or vcr will communicate the status of the tape, or disc back to the ipg



Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON

1 edit

said by Paolo:

the PVR has 2 tuners inside because its easy to have it integrated into one unit, the recording is also done in the same unit, controlled by the same software/IPG.

It would be a lot harder to make a unit with 2 tuners, and output the 2nd tuner to A VCR or DVD recorder to do the recording. There is no way the dvd or vcr will communicate the status of the tape, or disc back to the ipg

Take the hard drive out of the box. Take the restrictive software out of the box. Forget about a tape counter or a file writer. Just put a second tuner in the digital adapter with a button on the remote for Picture in Picture (just like the PVR), along with a second coax out, or composite out. Put a button on the remote to switch between the two pictures. The output for each would be analogue, on whatever channel needed - 3 or 4.
Even on televisions that do not have two tuners (for built in picture-in-picture), separate inputs could display from different sources, so you'd be able to get the recording started while watching the picture, then switch input to the regular television IN.
This does not appear to be technically difficult, and I doubt it is expensive. Take the hard drive out of a PVR and it should be $100 cheaper. Make it a generic, non-Rogers PVR (if such was available), and you'd be able to chop the price by hundreds more.


Exidor
Premium
join:2001-05-04
Brampton, ON

TiVo?

»support.tivo.com/app/answers/det···w/canada



HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21

Tivo us useless and crippled here in Canada...
--
GO LEAFS GO!



Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada

well a pvr does digital recording for playback on one device, which is allowed. recording to an analogue source will not work due to DRM. Again im no brainer tracer, but it also has to do with copyright. if you let people record it onto a pvr, they can not archive it, but if you let them record it onto an analog medium such as vcr or dvd recorder, they can duplciate it freely and watch it on any device their harts content, they do not want us to do this. it sounds easy yes we agree, but there are groups who put pressure on the manufacturers to not allow this. you seem smart, but why have you forgot about this?
--
Happiness is like peeing your pants... Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its Warmth!!



Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON

said by Paolo:

well a pvr does digital recording for playback on one device, which is allowed. recording to an analogue source will not work due to DRM. Again im no brainer tracer, but it also has to do with copyright. if you let people record it onto a pvr, they can not archive it, but if you let them record it onto an analog medium such as vcr or dvd recorder, they can duplciate it freely and watch it on any device their harts content, they do not want us to do this. it sounds easy yes we agree, but there are groups who put pressure on the manufacturers to not allow this. you seem smart, but why have you forgot about this?

I didn't foreget the DRM hitch, I just don't like it. Now that Rogers is a television station, not just a distributor, it is in their interest to put digital locks on content. I have not been copying and circulating shows amongst my friends. Lots of other people probably do. I did record some Turner Classics on DVD. I'm saving them for free viewing while on my death bed in the old folks home. The DVDs themselves (or is it CDs?) have been taxed an amount that is turned over to the recording industry. My uncle, who has severe alzheimers, pays a lot for Cogeco in the nursing home in Lindsay, which is kind of a waste, at this point. I have not become a torrent downloader of tv shows, although it would be easy to take this route (while such sites exist). However, I do subscribe to the free Miro pod-caste reader, whereby legitimately free shows and public domain films can be downloaded and viewed on my computer's HD screen. Miro files are saved on the hard drive in an file format that can be archived, but I haven't been doing so.
If the digital adapter still puts out analogue over composite, there is no restriction on recording content. The new restriction is simply not being able to record one channel while watching another. That is the downgrade I'm complaining about - as well as the price increase - and the inflated cost of PVRs - and the loss of picture in picture - as well as the single remote control (although Rogers will give me a second remote, according to the local store manager). My other complaints about lack of transparency with respect to the digital conversion, and about being told that this is a government mandate, also stand. Asking questions on this forum has been very helpful. Thanks go to all who participate - regardless of tone.


pmd

@rogers.com
reply to kliles

I am currently sending recorded shows from a Rogers PVR (Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300 HD) to an analog recorder without problem. It's possible new PVR's do not have analog output.

On the PVR, output component cables (video, 2 audio) go to an LG hard drive recorder, which also can write DVDs. My Rogers cable uses a splitter so the LG recorder can record channels 2-65 scheduled on its own tuner - for now anyway. I assume these changes mean it will become useless for scheduled recording very soon.



Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada

it may be a no brainer, but the pvr would also reduce the amount of support calls such as "how do i watch one program while recording another" they obviously do not provide you your vcr or dvd recorder, they should not support it, i can agree, im not siding with them but yes i agree, if u wanna dual functionality, in the digital age u gotta upgrade to it now.
--
Happiness is like peeing your pants... Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its Warmth!!



Tracer6

join:2006-10-12
Bowmanville, ON
reply to pmd

said by pmd :

I am currently sending recorded shows from a Rogers PVR (Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300 HD) to an analog recorder without problem. It's possible new PVR's do not have analog output.

On the PVR, output component cables (video, 2 audio) go to an LG hard drive recorder, which also can write DVDs. My Rogers cable uses a splitter so the LG recorder can record channels 2-65 scheduled on its own tuner - for now anyway. I assume these changes mean it will become useless for scheduled recording very soon.

You'll still get some analogue channels on the splitter to the recorder. How long they remain, may be up to Rogers. Perhaps they are required to keep certain channels active on analogue - maybe some of the ones you'd get over the air anyway.


pmd

@rogers.com

said by Tracer6:

You'll still get some analogue channels on the splitter to the recorder.

As I said, if they remove analog channels above 29 there isn't much point using an analog recorder, except maybe for a series on one of the "big" networks.