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jseymour
join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

jseymour

Member

SBC's Tired Wires

The irony here is that, of Comcast's claims about SBC's network delivery via "tired wires" is the one that's provably true and accurate. SBC (yeah, yeah, I know: They call themselves "AT&T" these days--but a rose by any other name and all that....) does deliver connectivity via their tired old copper pair plant. That is one of the reasons SBC absolutely was not under consideration for my Internet connection at home. The attitude reflected in their choosing to do that also had an influence on my choosing to move our business services at work to another provider. (Tho that latter choice was primarily due to their poor performance in a number of other aspects.)

Btw: The "tired wire creature" thing? I've got pictures of tangles of SBC wiring that looks just about like that. If I'm feeling ambitious, I'll post 'em up later.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

1 edit

NetFixer

Premium Member

said by jseymour:

Btw: The "tired wire creature" thing? I've got pictures of tangles of SBC wiring that looks just about like that. If I'm feeling ambitious, I'll post 'em up later.

The inside of the pedestal under my office window looks just like the tired wire critter. If you can't find your photos, let me know. I'll try to find someone to keep an eye out for approaching AT&T trucks, and pop the cover and snap a pic. I've been meaning to go out and replace some old dry splices where my VoIP wiring feeds through with fresh jelly beans anyway.

The commercial with the bird flying out of the wire critter is also very true. The AT&T pedestal in the back yard of my previous residence had a damaged cover, and it was replaced with a black plastic bag. On numerous occasions I had to go out and chase squirrels and birds out of it in a self defensive move to preserve my own connections.

Oh_No
Trogglus normalus
join:2011-05-21
Chicago, IL

Oh_No to jseymour

Member

to jseymour
While it is 100% true that comcast with their coax will always be able to have faster speeds than ATTs twisted pair copper, to say you say a reason you would not ATT for internet because they use old lines or twisted pair makes no sense. At whatever speed you can connect to based on your distance, ATTs service is probably more reliable than comcast especially for the entire internet connection since ATT as a Tier 1 ISP is a major part of the internet.
Now if ATT does not offer the speeds you want and can get from comcast then that would be a valid reason, not because they use old lines.

In my opinion they both suck since both companies have caps.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

1 edit

NetFixer

Premium Member

said by Oh_No:

While it is 100% true that comcast with their coax will always be able to have faster speeds than ATTs twisted pair copper, to say you say a reason you would not ATT for internet because they use old lines or twisted pair makes no sense. At whatever speed you can connect to based on your distance, ATTs service is probably more reliable than comcast especially for the entire internet connection since ATT as a Tier 1 ISP is a major part of the internet.
Now if ATT does not offer the speeds you want and can get from comcast then that would be a valid reason, not because they use old lines.

In my opinion they both suck since both companies have caps.

While I am sure that AT&T probably does have nice new reliable infrastructure somewhere in their footprint, that is most definitely not true everywhere.

I used to pay for two DSL circuits that I setup for load balancing and automatic failover with a Cisco router. While the additional throughput from the load balancing was a nice side benefit, the failover was the main reason I did it. When (as part of their capped service initiative) AT&T decided that no user could have more than one DSL circuit at the same address (and arbitrarily disconnected one of my circuits with no warning), I booted AT&T and got a Comcast connection instead. It has been a year since that happened, and so far the Comcast reliability has exceeded what I had from AT&T. Obviously, different areas are maintained by different people, and that situation may be reversed in some areas, but it would take a major screwup by Comcast (and AT&T would have to prove to me that they had made major improvements in their local infrastructure) before I would consider using AT&T again as an ISP.

jseymour
join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

jseymour to Oh_No

Member

to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

... to say you say a reason you would not ATT for internet because they use old lines or twisted pair makes no sense. At whatever speed you can connect to based on your distance, ATTs service is probably more reliable than comcast ...

Oh really?

At work we had three T1s. Over the month prior to when I cancelled them all, replacing them with Bright House Networks service, one of them was down more than it was up, and the other two went down once-or-twice each. Do you know what T1s cost?

I've had one (1) failure with my Comcast Business High-Speed Internet at home in the two years I've had it, and that was a non-Comcast transit provider in Chicago's fault. Total down-time was less than an hour.
said by Oh_No:

...especially for the entire internet connection since ATT as a Tier 1 ISP is a major part of the internet.

Comcast likewise has a major backbone network of its own, and is a major provider of backbone transit, nation-wide. Besides: It's been my impression that the legacy SBC part of AT&T's current network isn't particularly well-performing, but that's just a seat-of-the-pants guesstimation.

Poor reliability, backed by even poorer customer service, is one of the other reasons I've been dumping SBC everywhere it makes sense to do so.

Metatron2008
You're it
Premium Member
join:2008-09-02
united state

Metatron2008 to Oh_No

Premium Member

to Oh_No
At&t has reliable infastructure in places where they recently bought competition. In a couple years that turns to shit too.

Ask pretty much anyone in the former bellsouth areas. Like me.

Rambo76098
join:2003-02-21
Columbus, OH

Rambo76098 to Oh_No

Member

to Oh_No
Disagree. Their backbone sucks ass (I suspect on purpose since it's usually video streaming that has problems), I couldn't even stream Youtube 720p or HD Netflix on a 18MBPS connection, and Hulu 480p had problems sometimes.

I've known people who could log-in to a VPN and have a better connection to parts of the internet. AT&T is the only one of the numerous ISPs in the area that has these problems.

motorola870
join:2008-12-07
Arlington, TX

motorola870 to Oh_No

Member

to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

While it is 100% true that comcast with their coax will always be able to have faster speeds than ATTs twisted pair copper, to say you say a reason you would not ATT for internet because they use old lines or twisted pair makes no sense. At whatever speed you can connect to based on your distance, ATTs service is probably more reliable than comcast especially for the entire internet connection since ATT as a Tier 1 ISP is a major part of the internet.
Now if ATT does not offer the speeds you want and can get from comcast then that would be a valid reason, not because they use old lines.

In my opinion they both suck since both companies have caps.

well how about the BBB come and wrist slap att for saying that they have a pure fiber network when they try to sell you service or that they point out that cable is copper and completely lie about the fact that they are too copper or how about the way that they sell a 6 mbps pots dsl line and only deliver 5.1 mbps capped and I am only about 1500 feet or less away from the dslam.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

r81984 to Rambo76098

Premium Member

to Rambo76098
Those limits have to be on purpose by ATT.
They are a the largest global backbone of the internet.
They pay no fees to connect to anyone elses networks.
Tier1 ISPs are Verizon UUNET, ATT, Level3, Sprint, Tata, NTT, Centrylink.

As for the streaming, I had 6 meg DSL back in dec for 1.5 years in my current location and had no problems streaming from youtube.
They forced me to switch to UVerse and now I have the streaming problems you describe.
12 mbps and it lags greatly trying to watch a video on youtube.

They are definately routing differently with Uverse than with their DSL.

jseymour
join:2009-12-11
Waterford, MI

jseymour

Member

said by r81984:

They are a the largest global backbone of the internet.
They pay no fees to connect to anyone elses networks.
Tier1 ISPs are Verizon UUNET, ATT, Level3, Sprint, Tata, NTT, Centrylink.

Yeah, but being a Tier 1 ISP doesn't necessarily mean their network performs all that well. For example: UUNET, pre-VZ, had acquired some-or-another regional provider in the Chicago area. (Don't recall the name anymore.) It seemed to me, at the time, that seven-out-of-ten times I went looking for poor network performance, the route was going through that network of UUNET's. You don't get more "Tier 1" than UUNET. Or you didn't, anyway.

Furthermore: A goodly portion of "AT&T"s current network is what were ILEC networks hung off the side of the real AT&T's network. You only need traceroute through them to see that.

r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium Member
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX

1 recommendation

r81984

Premium Member

I have had Uverse for less than 1 month.
I have the same problem rambo76098 has, where some stream sites are slow and low res. I cannot stream high res youtube videos without long pauses but yet I have 12mpbs.
I even have pausing in amazon streaming video.

When I had 6 meg dsl back in december I never had streaming issues like that.
Att probably has some kind of packet shaping that is causing the slow down for video streaming.
Just another BS thing to go along with their caps to protect uverse tv.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to Oh_No

Premium Member

to Oh_No
said by Oh_No:

In my opinion they both suck since both companies have caps.

because they both have OVERPRICED VIDEO to protect.

anon9876
@embarqhsd.net

anon9876 to jseymour

Anon

to jseymour
Comcast does not have it's own backbone network, it uses Level3 for its backbone.

NetFixer
From My Cold Dead Hands
Premium Member
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Netgear CM500
Pace 5268AC
TRENDnet TEW-829DRU

1 edit

NetFixer

Premium Member

said by anon9876 :

Comcast does not have it's own backbone network, it uses Level3 for its backbone.



Never heard of the Comcast ibone?


C:\>tracert www.wdc.com

Tracing route to a1026.g.akamai.net [72.246.45.73]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms host6.dcs-net.net [75.146.8.46]
2 22 ms 19 ms 55 ms 96.191.160.1
3 8 ms 9 ms 8 ms xe-4-0-0-0-sur01.murfreesboro.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.85.5 0.125]
4 11 ms 9 ms 25 ms xe-4-1-1-0-ar03.nashville.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.86.176.1 01]
5 28 ms 23 ms 25 ms pos-2-11-0-0-cr01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net [ 68.86.90.69]
6 27 ms 26 ms 27 ms pos-1-7-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net [68.8 6.88.45]
7 31 ms 32 ms 32 ms pos-2-15-0-0-cr01.atlanta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [68. 86.85.166]
8 51 ms 35 ms 35 ms pos-0-4-0-0-pe01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [6 8.86.87.138]
9 33 ms 29 ms 32 ms a72-246-45-73.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com [72.246.45.73]

Trace complete.

C:\>tracert www.apple.com

Tracing route to e3191.c.akamaiedge.net [184.86.61.15]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms host6.dcs-net.net [75.146.8.46]
2 39 ms 9 ms 19 ms 96.191.160.1
3 32 ms 9 ms 8 ms xe-4-0-0-0-sur01.murfreesboro.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.85.5 0.125]
4 34 ms 29 ms 19 ms xe-3-1-2-0-ar03.nashville.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.85.174.1 7]
5 64 ms 25 ms 56 ms pos-2-9-0-0-cr01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net [6 8.86.93.189]
6 26 ms 23 ms 27 ms pos-0-3-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net [68.8 6.88.21]
7 47 ms 33 ms 32 ms 68.86.89.10
8 54 ms 34 ms 34 ms pos-0-1-0-0-pe01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [6 8.86.86.86]
9 32 ms 30 ms 30 ms a184-86-61-15.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com [184.86.61.15]

Trace complete.

C:\>tracert www.motorola.com

Tracing route to e1900.b.akamaiedge.net [184.86.55.224]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms host6.dcs-net.net [75.146.8.46]
2 67 ms 28 ms 21 ms 96.191.160.1
3 9 ms 9 ms 8 ms xe-4-0-0-0-sur01.murfreesboro.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.85.5 0.125]
4 42 ms 13 ms 9 ms xe-4-1-1-0-ar03.nashville.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.86.176.1 01]
5 28 ms 63 ms 38 ms pos-2-10-0-0-cr01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net [ 68.86.95.209]
6 24 ms 27 ms 35 ms pos-1-5-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net [68.8 6.88.37]
7 77 ms 31 ms 30 ms pos-2-10-0-0-cr01.atlanta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [68. 86.87.114]
8 34 ms 35 ms 34 ms pos-0-0-0-0-pe01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [6 8.86.86.82]
9 31 ms 35 ms 30 ms a184-86-55-224.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com [184.86.55.22 4]

Trace complete.


While Comcast does have transit agreements with Level3, it is not their only path to the internet, they also have their own national backbone (even if they don't use the word "backbone").

I don't see Level3 being used to get to dslreports.com either:


C:\>tracert www.dslrepots.com

Tracing route to www.dslrepots.com [69.43.161.168]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 5 ms <1 ms <1 ms host6.dcs-net.net [75.146.8.46]
2 36 ms 21 ms 29 ms 96.191.160.1
3 8 ms 8 ms 12 ms xe-4-0-0-0-sur01.murfreesboro.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.85.5 0.125]
4 10 ms 9 ms 9 ms xe-4-1-1-0-ar03.nashville.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.86.176.1 01]
5 26 ms 26 ms 24 ms pos-2-10-0-0-cr01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net [ 68.86.95.209]
6 24 ms 57 ms 23 ms pos-1-5-0-0-pe01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net [6 8.86.87.126]
7 29 ms 23 ms 26 ms ix-0-2-2-0.tcore2.CT8-Chicago.as6453.net [206.82.141.81]
8 27 ms 24 ms 23 ms 64.86.79.2
9 25 ms 24 ms 33 ms te9-3-0d0.cir1.chicago2-il.us.xo.net [206.111.2.205]
10 79 ms 27 ms 27 ms 207.88.14.193.ptr.us.xo.net [207.88.14.193]
11 97 ms 97 ms 95 ms te-4-1-0.rar3.denver-co.us.xo.net [207.88.12.22]
12 96 ms 93 ms 93 ms te0-13-0-0.rar3.la-ca.us.xo.net [207.88.12.86]
13 91 ms 91 ms 91 ms ae0d0.mcr1.sandiego-ca.us.xo.net [216.156.0.122]
14 98 ms 86 ms 86 ms ae1d0.mcr2.sandiego-ca.us.xo.net [216.156.1.62]
15 78 ms 86 ms 79 ms 216.55.27.26
16 76 ms 76 ms 83 ms ge5-2-6509-a.castleaccess.com [69.43.169.112]
17 79 ms 77 ms 77 ms 69.43.129.188
18 77 ms 95 ms 81 ms 69.43.161.168

Trace complete.


Level3 is used however, to get to Yahoo! (but so is the Comcast ibone):


C:\>tracert www.yahoo.com

Tracing route to any-fp3-real.wa1.b.yahoo.com [98.139.183.24]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms host6.dcs-net.net [75.146.8.46]
2 51 ms 23 ms 39 ms 96.191.160.1
3 8 ms 9 ms 9 ms xe-4-0-0-0-sur01.murfreesboro.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.85.5 0.125]
4 40 ms 30 ms 9 ms xe-3-1-2-0-ar03.nashville.tn.nash.comcast.net [68.85.174.1 7]
5 23 ms 24 ms 27 ms pos-2-15-0-0-cr01.350ecermak.il.ibone.comcast.net [ 68.86.90.73]
6 29 ms 26 ms 26 ms pos-1-7-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net [68.8 6.88.45]
7 23 ms 24 ms 23 ms xe-9-3-0.edge1.Chicago2.Level3.net [4.71.248.21]
8 23 ms 36 ms 23 ms vlan52.ebr2.Chicago2.Level3.net [4.69.138.190]
9 35 ms 43 ms 49 ms ae-6-6.ebr2.Washington12.Level3.net [4.69.148.145]
10 35 ms 35 ms 35 ms ae-5-5.ebr2.Washington1.Level3.net [4.69.143.221]
11 35 ms 50 ms 40 ms ae-62-62.csw1.Washington1.Level3.net [4.69.134.146]
12 36 ms 35 ms 65 ms ae-11-60.car1.Washington1.Level3.net [4.69.149.3]
13 34 ms 35 ms 35 ms YAHOO-INC.car1.Washington1.Level3.net [4.79.228.2]
14 40 ms 35 ms 34 ms ae-3.pat2.dce.yahoo.com [216.115.102.113]
15 40 ms 55 ms 62 ms ae-0.pat2.nyc.yahoo.com [216.115.100.93]
16 111 ms 53 ms 70 ms ge-0-0-0.pat1.bfz.yahoo.com [216.115.97.199]
17 58 ms 54 ms 51 ms ae-3.msr2.bf1.yahoo.com [216.115.100.31]
18 61 ms 54 ms 56 ms xe-4-0-0.clr1-a-gdc.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.232.81]
19 53 ms 60 ms 59 ms et-17-1.fab4-1-gdc.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.128.43]
20 62 ms 56 ms 60 ms po-14.bas1-7-prd.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.129.225]
21 98 ms 84 ms 169 ms ir2.fp.vip.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.183.24]

Trace complete.


Is one out of five enough usage to declare that Level3 is Comcast's backbone supplier?