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scooper

join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
kudos:2
reply to fifty nine

Re: Heat pumps - geothermal vs air source

The better term to use should be ground source heatpump, rather than geothermal. Geothermal would usually be like alkizmo was referring to about volcanic type heat .

Ground source heatpumps should even work up there in the GWN.

Personally - I think you would better off doing the air source heatpump with propane and/or wood backup. The heatpump would take care of cooling and the vast majority of heating. But I would price all the options before making a move.


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by scooper:

The better term to use should be ground source heatpump, rather than geothermal. Geothermal would usually be like alkizmo was referring to about volcanic type heat .

Ground source heatpumps should even work up there in the GWN.

Personally - I think you would better off doing the air source heatpump with propane and/or wood backup. The heatpump would take care of cooling and the vast majority of heating. But I would price all the options before making a move.

here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by telco_mtl:

here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.

What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. Even our Hydro the environmental wacko's are forcing the breech of some of our hydro producing dams so the "Fish" can swim upstream.

My utility is trying to build a new power plant not too far from me and the crazies have come out of their caves and so far have it stopped.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

said by Jack_in_VA:

What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources.

According to here (page 20) $.0682/kWh for residential as of 4/2011 exclusive of taxes.

For the record, for that same time period, I paid just over $.08/kwh inclusive of all taxes and fees. And geothermal sales aren't doing too bad in the area.


toby
Troy Mcclure

join:2001-11-13
Seattle, WA
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by telco_mtl:

here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.

What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. Even our Hydro the environmental wacko's are forcing the breech of some of our hydro producing dams so the "Fish" can swim upstream.

My utility is trying to build a new power plant not too far from me and the crazies have come out of their caves and so far have it stopped.

Oh, those whackos.

Blocking the rivers of course harms the environment.

The geothermal mentioned in this thread is actually solar, where the sun warms the ground, not the heat from the earth like is used in place like Iceland.

Nuclear is the best power, as long as it isnn't owned by private irresponsible companies of course.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to cdru

said by cdru:

said by Jack_in_VA:

What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources.

According to here (page 20) $.0682/kWh for residential as of 4/2011 exclusive of taxes.

For the record, for that same time period, I paid just over $.08/kwh inclusive of all taxes and fees. And geothermal sales aren't doing too bad in the area.

I just received my bill from 1/12/12 to 2/13/12. 2230 kWh @ 10.8 cents/kWh. Includes all taxes various BS fees that politicians stick on.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by cdru:

said by Jack_in_VA:

What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources.

According to here (page 20) $.0682/kWh for residential as of 4/2011 exclusive of taxes.

For the record, for that same time period, I paid just over $.08/kwh inclusive of all taxes and fees. And geothermal sales aren't doing too bad in the area.

I just received my bill from 1/12/12 to 2/13/12. 2230 kWh @ 10.8 cents/kWh. Includes all taxes various BS fees that politicians stick on.

right now the DT rate that i am on is :
above -15c its 4.3c a kw/h
below - 15c its 18.32c a kw/h

the regular rate (normal residential consumers):
first 30kwh a day : 5.39c a kwh
after that its : 7.50c a kwh


whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9
reply to toby

said by toby:

The geothermal mentioned in this thread is actually solar, where the sun warms the ground, not the heat from the earth like is used in place like Iceland.

Ground-source heat pump is the same thing as geothermal heat-exchange. Geothermal comes in basically three flavors: horizontal surface coils, shallow-well and deep-well. It sounds as if the OP is talking about surface geothermal. This requires a relatively large amount of land to bury the coils; horizontally buried at typically about ten feet deep. Shallow-well uses drilled wells as opposed to simply placing coils horizontally in the ground. Shallow well requires less land than horizontal but still takes a lot of land depending on its application. And its not as shallow as you think; the wells can be from 50' to hundreds of feet deep; most typically about 80' to 100' feet deep. Deep well is used where there is not enough land to have many, many wells.

Its not just Iceland where geo-thermal energy is being used. Geothermal energy has been around since the 1800's in the USA. Deep-well geothermal is being used right in Manhattan to provide HVAC to buildings. There are geothermal installations all across the United States. The US leads the world in geothermal electricity production. It doesn't require 'volcanic activity'!
ground-source heat pump which is different from Geothermal heating & cooling. Bear in mind, all of these systems use 'heat pumps' to work. Just not small residential units.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to scooper

said by scooper:

The better term to use should be ground source heatpump, rather than geothermal. Geothermal would usually be like alkizmo was referring to about volcanic type heat .

Ground source heatpumps should even work up there in the GWN.

The Government calls it Geothermal, so I'll call it Geothermal.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by telco_mtl:

here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.

What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. Even our Hydro the environmental wacko's are forcing the breech of some of our hydro producing dams so the "Fish" can swim upstream.

My utility is trying to build a new power plant not too far from me and the crazies have come out of their caves and so far have it stopped.

That's a bit misleading.

The US actually has larger hydroelectric facilities than Canada, but Canada has a smaller population concentrated in a smaller area (most of Canada's land mass is frozen tundra). Still, their hydro is only 60% of their electric usage.

We're a bigger country and we use more energy, so we have more energy sources.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to whizkid3

said by whizkid3:

Geothermal comes in basically three flavors: horizontal surface coils, shallow-well and deep-well. It sounds as if the OP is talking about surface geothermal. This requires a relatively large amount of land to bury the coils; horizontally buried at typically about ten feet deep. Shallow-well uses drilled wells as opposed to simply placing coils horizontally in the ground. Shallow well requires less land than horizontal but still takes a lot of land depending on its application. And its not as shallow as you think; the wells can be from 50' to hundreds of feet deep; most typically about 80' to 100' feet deep. Deep well is used where there is not enough land to have many, many wells.

There are a few types, actually.

We are looking into what you call "surface geothermal" (horizontal loop) as well as where the loops are put down a drilled well (vertical loop). Both are closed loops with glycol refrigerant. Some even put the loops at the bottom of a body of water like a pond or lake.

There's also open loop where you just use the ground water and discharge it somewhere.

We are looking at either a horizontal loop or vertical loop. We have the land for both but the horizontal loop involves significant tree cutting.


tstolze
Premium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Charter

said by fifty nine:

We are looking at either a horizontal loop or vertical loop. We have the land for both but the horizontal loop involves significant tree cutting.

Some installers are now using directional boring for horizontal loops. Horizontal is defiantly cheaper and with a boring rig the trees would be a non issue.
--
Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to whizkid3

said by whizkid3:

Shallow-well uses drilled wells as opposed to simply placing coils horizontally in the ground. Shallow well requires less land than horizontal but still takes a lot of land depending on its application.

For most residential applications, a 10'x10' area is the minimum that's required. More space the better, but if there's a clear area that size, vertical loops probably can be installed.

And its not as shallow as you think; the wells can be from 50' to hundreds of feet deep; most typically about 80' to 100' feet deep. Deep well is used where there is not enough land to have many, many wells.

Up to 150' is as deep as we recommend but no deeper than 400' for a single vertical loop.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to tstolze

said by tstolze:

said by fifty nine:

We are looking at either a horizontal loop or vertical loop. We have the land for both but the horizontal loop involves significant tree cutting.

Some installers are now using directional boring for horizontal loops. Horizontal is defiantly cheaper and with a boring rig the trees would be a non issue.

I don't even mind cutting the trees (we'll use the firewood), but if it comes out to more than drilling a vertical loop, it won't be worth it.

The directional boring sounds interesting. My cousin does something similar for a living but he works in the oil and gas industry. He is a directional driller. Quite a difference but probably similar concepts.

We have 6.15 acres here so we have options. It's too bad we don't have a pond or lake on the property because that would have been ideal. I know someone nearby who lives on a lakefront and put the loop in the lake.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by fifty nine:

said by tstolze:

said by fifty nine:

We are looking at either a horizontal loop or vertical loop. We have the land for both but the horizontal loop involves significant tree cutting.

Some installers are now using directional boring for horizontal loops. Horizontal is defiantly cheaper and with a boring rig the trees would be a non issue.

I don't even mind cutting the trees (we'll use the firewood), but if it comes out to more than drilling a vertical loop, it won't be worth it.

The directional boring sounds interesting. My cousin does something similar for a living but he works in the oil and gas industry. He is a directional driller. Quite a difference but probably similar concepts.

We have 6.15 acres here so we have options. It's too bad we don't have a pond or lake on the property because that would have been ideal. I know someone nearby who lives on a lakefront and put the loop in the lake.

How cold does the lake water get in winter? Would that not negate some from the natural warmth of the well method? We looked at putting it in the water but we're on the coast and the marine life would coat it in about a year.

An open system utilizing my well and dumping the water was a better option but wasteful.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

said by Jack_in_VA:

How cold does the lake water get in winter? Would that not negate some from the natural warmth of the well method? We looked at putting it in the water but we're on the coast and the marine life would coat it in about a year.

An open system utilizing my well and dumping the water was a better option but wasteful.

The water temperature stays relatively constant below a certain depth is what I was told.

The entire lake doesn't freeze, just 2-4 feet of the surface.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

How cold does the lake water get in winter? Would that not negate some from the natural warmth of the well method? We looked at putting it in the water but we're on the coast and the marine life would coat it in about a year.

Our 115k sq ft manufacturing plant (~85k sq ft factory, the rest office) is conditioned using multiple units on multiple slinky pond loops totaling 153 tons. A lake won't freeze over any more then what the ground will freeze. Anything more than a couple of feet and the lake will be liquid still.

An open system utilizing my well and dumping the water was a better option but wasteful.

A summer camp that I grew up at used an open loop for their main building. Sitting right next to a major lake, the well was very shallow, basically unlimited, and could easily be dumped right back into the lake. The energy required to pump the water from the well wasn't all that much more than what was required to run a closed loop.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by telco_mtl:

here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.

What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. Even our Hydro the environmental wacko's are forcing the breech of some of our hydro producing dams so the "Fish" can swim upstream.

My utility is trying to build a new power plant not too far from me and the crazies have come out of their caves and so far have it stopped.

That's a bit misleading.

The US actually has larger hydroelectric facilities than Canada, but Canada has a smaller population concentrated in a smaller area (most of Canada's land mass is frozen tundra). Still, their hydro is only 60% of their electric usage.

We're a bigger country and we use more energy, so we have more energy sources.

but quebec has almost 100% of its power comming from hydro. One of our most important exports is power to new york and vermont. We have a couple of wind plants here and there as well as one nuclear plant which is offline much of the time