Russ
join:2011-03-17
Houston, TX
kudos:1 | reply to ajwees41
Re: [STB] Cisco thinking of getting out of the set-top box busin said by ajwees41:Russ how can they though since it's now Cisco cable boxes not SA
So Googlle would have to buy it from Cisco not SA?
Yes, Google would have to buy it from Cisco not SA.
Cisco bought SA and can sell SA and any other part of Cisco's business that Cisco wants to sell. Google would have to have Cisco's permission before the sale. Google couldn't do a hostile takeover since SA is currently part of Cisco.
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SA 8300 HD DVRs with Patched S25 Guide
Links:
'S25 Guide Blog' 'Schedule' 'Info' 'Patch Thread' |
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 telcodad
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:2 | Found this press release on ACG Research's Service Provider Video Infrastructure (SPVI) market report:
ACG Research: Video Infrastructure Market Reaches $13.2B Worldwide
The impact by OTT video and multiscreen viewing is still slight but threatening according to ACG Research's recent market report.
PRWEB - February 24, 2012
»www.prweb.com/releases/2012/2/pr···1293.htm
"Cisco is the clear market leader in the Service Provider Video Infrastructure (SPVI) market. In the infrastructure segments (core routers, carrier Ethernet and CMTS), Cisco dominates these markets with approximately 60% market share in each. Cisco also has taken over as the leading STB vendor, based on its strength in IPTV STBs. Motorola is in second place, driven by its leading cable STB shares. Arris has a solid second place share in CMTS, and Alcatel Lucent takes second place in the routing segments.
While remaining in the low single digit in share of the market, Over the Top (OTT) and TV Everywhere (TVE, the viewing of videos on tablets, mobile devices, laptops and game consoles) continues to grow faster than the rest of the market. STBs are down slightly year to year, but much of this change is because of the increase in sales of lower cost devices such as DTAs and price pressures. CMTS sales remain strong, driven by increasing demand for data over the hybrid fiber coax systems of the multisystem operators.
“So far, the market and pay TV companies have not seen major impacts from OTT and TVE,” said David Dines, ACG’s principal analyst for video. “However, all the players in the ecosystem have launched or about to launch initiatives to compete with Netflix and Hulu,” he added. “Some examples include Streampix from Comcast, Verizon’s deal with Redbox, HBOgo, ESPN and Showtime.” Mr. Dines continues “This means that vendors will be pushed by the service providers to come up with solutions to deal with the additional complexity.” |
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miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | reply to ajwees41
said by ajwees41:what make the hardware in cisco better than the motorola boxes?
A couple easy things are the RISC chips in the boxes have "traditionally" been more powerful than the chips in the Moto boxes. The Cisco boxes have also been able to do PIP.
Architecture wise, There is the whole dedicated QAM In-Band data carrier that was used to send code to the boxes (in basically completely images), guide, and a few other system items, which has left the OOB QPSK carrier free to just handle 2-way box traffic (done via IP) and System information such as channel maps, time, etc. On a motorola system, all traffic to the box is sent via the small OOB QPSK carrier, including box code. It means that managing data rates becomes a much more delicate balancing act in order to get everything to every type of box you have on the plant, while not impacting 2way traffic or time to load. It is because of this you run into the whole code-object aspect of the Motorola code (so you can only push what needs to be pushed and common objects don't get duplicated)... as well as one reason for the proprietary OOB communication protocols which are designed to deal with the limited bandwidth better than TCP/IP would. |
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| »www.motorola.com/Video-Solutions···00_US-EN
the motorola's can do PIP per the above and most like need a firmware guide update. |
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Russ
join:2011-03-17
Houston, TX
kudos:1 | said by ajwees41:http://www.motorola.com/Video-Solutions/US-EN/Products-and-Services/Video-Consumer-Premise-Equipment/All-Digital-Set-Tops/DCT3400_US-EN
the motorola's can do PIP per the above and most like need a firmware guide update.
In Ted Hodgins' "New Guide for Scientific Atlanta Cable Boxes" blog (» blog.comcast.com/2010/05/new-gui···nt-37924), he states PIP is not on the current feature roadmap and probably won't be in the future. Also, the SA/Cisco DVRs support an external hard drive but the Motorola DVRs currently don't. --
SA 8300 HD DVRs with Patched S25 Guide
Links:
'S25 Guide Blog' 'Schedule' 'Info' 'Patch Thread' |
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Russ
join:2011-03-17
Houston, TX
kudos:1 | reply to miscDude
said by miscDude:said by ajwees41:what make the hardware in cisco better than the motorola boxes?
A couple easy things are the RISC chips in the boxes have "traditionally" been more powerful than the chips in the Moto boxes. The Cisco boxes have also been able to do PIP. Architecture wise, There is the whole dedicated QAM In-Band data carrier that was used to send code to the boxes (in basically completely images), guide, and a few other system items, which has left the OOB QPSK carrier free to just handle 2-way box traffic (done via IP) and System information such as channel maps, time, etc. On a motorola system, all traffic to the box is sent via the small OOB QPSK carrier, including box code. It means that managing data rates becomes a much more delicate balancing act in order to get everything to every type of box you have on the plant, while not impacting 2way traffic or time to load. It is because of this you run into the whole code-object aspect of the Motorola code (so you can only push what needs to be pushed and common objects don't get duplicated)... as well as one reason for the proprietary OOB communication protocols which are designed to deal with the limited bandwidth better than TCP/IP would. Is this the reason why the new S25 guide takes a couple days to load the complete guide data when it is rebooted and the previous SARA guide loaded the guide data quickly when it was rebooted?
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SA 8300 HD DVRs with Patched S25 Guide
Links:
'S25 Guide Blog' 'Schedule' 'Info' 'Patch Thread' |
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miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | said by Russ:Is this the reason why the new S25 guide takes a couple days to load the complete guide data when it is rebooted and the previous SARA guide loaded the guide data quickly when it was rebooted?
Yes. SARA only sent about a days worth of guide in the OOB carrier, but sent the rest of the 7 days through the in-band data. when you turned off the box it tuned to the in-band and just pulled the full data there. Your data throughput for the guide information would be the equivalent of a dial-up connection vs. DSL.
S25 along with the Moto feel, goes with the Moto guide method of sending EVERYTHING thru the OOB. This means that they are sending the full 2 weeks of guide thru that dial up connection. In theory, it could handle it fine since it's ultimately just text, but because of the way it's constantly streaming they send the first day or so on a pretty regular basis, then day 2-7 less often, and finally days 7-14 maybe once a day. The idea is that no matter when a box gets connected to the plant, the overall guide load time would be about the same vs sending everything all at once which would result in a box maybe getting day 5 pretty quickly once powered, but then having to wait 8-10hrs for the beginning of the data with what's currently airing to come back around.
IMHO, while S25 definitely looks nicer than SARA did, they managed to import all of MOTO's shortcomings while not taking advantage of any of the SA/Cisco advantages. For the average customer however, it's still overall an improvement..... if nothing more, because if you live in a SA/Cisco plant you don't have to worry about customer service not having a clue how to tell you to get to someplace in the guide because the call center is located on a Moto plant. |
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Russ
join:2011-03-17
Houston, TX
kudos:1 | The main problem that I had with the S25 guide was that it would truncate recordings under certain conditions. See the Patch link in my signature for more information. Comcast had to stop development on adding features to the guide and instead send out a patch to fix this major issue and 2 minor issues. The patch fixed the truncated recordings issue and improved the other 2 minor issues. This has delayed future guide releases by at least a half a year and it could end up being even longer.
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SA 8300 HD DVRs with Patched S25 Guide
Links:
'S25 Guide Blog' 'Schedule' 'Info' 'Patch Thread' |
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miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | I've got my own feelings about S25. I'm going to try and keep my mouth shut regarding my opinions on it's readiness and/or the way it was/is being handled. |
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| reply to miscDude
hey miscDude, long time no talk.
Do you know if Passport is handled the same way? With the SA Broadband Information Gateway (sometimes called the BIG QAM)?
Good thought from SA when they designed it years ago and sending BFS data over a full 6 MHz channel that the box tunes to when it's idle, but I think the future solution really would be DOCSIS. All the Advanced set top boxes have internal DOCSIS modems. Cablevision already orders their SA/Cisco with the DOCSIS version instead of the BIG QAM/DAVIC OOB version. IE) the SA4250 vs the SA3250.
But think of it this way... There's already 8 channels of DOCSIS in some areas because of DOCSIS 3.0 channel bonding. Back in the day when you only had 1 DOCSIS channel maybe it wasn't smart to mix STB data with HSI data and rob customers of their service level agreements. These days I don't see any issue with using DSG (Docsis Set Top Gateway) with all the extra channels assigned to the CMTS. That's at least how Xfinity Spectrum works. I believe the Tivo on Moto experement that has come to an end also delivered the data via DOCSIS. |
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miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | Pretty much any Guide designed to work on a Scientific Atlanta plant has traditionally used the in-band data carrier to send the guide information. Passport, Sara, and even TWC's guide (Mystro? NAvigator? I forget what they call it).
As for using DOCSIS, I actually think most SA boxes have had cablemodems imbedded for years, they just haven't been taken advantage of. As for how DSG boxes will end up working (Tru2Way... it's still out there, even if consumer electronic Manufacturers have kind of dropped their support), I don't know. I'm not sure if they are going to support a "send on request" kind of model for guide data [honestly, will the boxes have enough power for that kind of intelligence?], or if they'll stick to the existing data stream method with just moving the OOB carrier to what would be almost like a VPN tunnel on the DOCSIS carriers. They'd still end up having the room to increase the thruput rate with the extra bandwidth available, and could even create separate tunnels for the different types of data to more efficiently utilize the resources available.
the real question would then become what type of DOCSIS modems are in the devices? If they aren't DOCSIS3 modems, then they would still be limited to a single DOCSIS Downstream... so you'd either need to duplicate your tunnels across multiple downstreams, or make sure that all the STB's locked onto a single downstream frequency. |
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telcodad
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:2 | said by miscDude:As for using DOCSIS, I actually think most SA boxes have had cablemodems imbedded for years, they just haven't been taken advantage of.
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the real question would then become what type of DOCSIS modems are in the devices? If they aren't DOCSIS3 modems, then they would still be limited to a single DOCSIS Downstream... so you'd either need to duplicate your tunnels across multiple downstreams, or make sure that all the STB's locked onto a single downstream frequency.
I believe that Comcast's specs for their Residential Network Gateway (RNG) series of STBs by Cisco (SA), Motorola, and Pace require that they contain a DOCSIS (2.0?) modem.
Here is a Light Reading Cable article that discusses that:
Comcast 'RNG' Set-Tops Have IPTV Potential
Light Reading Cable - November 5, 2010
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···lr_cable |
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| reply to miscDude
Interesting, ok thanks for the reply miscDude.
What I like about DirecTV (and most guides on SA boxes that aren't i-Guide), is that the data stays intact on reboot. However on those devices there's a 5 to 10 minute boot time - unlike i-Guide (at least on Moto - I never used it on SA). I-Guide is ready for channel surfing right away and acquires data in the background.
On my DirecTV if I reboot it, it goes through its bootup phase (self check, os load, check dish, acquiring data, rebuilding scheduler, then live TV). You end up staring at progress bars for 5 minutes or more while you wait for it to complete. However I have a full guide when it's back up (not to mention cool features like Pandora, YouTube, TVApps and an HD UI). Now if there's an issue with guide data causing a corruption, they have it programmed if you reboot it twice within a 30-minute time frame that it will flush the guide data and download it from scratch.
A similar model could theoretically be applied to cable DVR's since they have a disk they could store data to. However I did hear that more advanced guides will use the internal DOCSIS modem for things like poster art, social media connections, TVApps, etc... Here's a post from last November from Mari Silbey on ZNF regarding (at least Rovi's total guide) the STB Modem in use: »www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-11/rov···set-top/ |
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telcodad
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:2 | A new blog post on the Multichannel News site about this:
Duopoly Demise: A World without Motorola or Cisco
By Gary Arlen, Multichannel News - March 5, 2012
»www.multichannel.com/blog/As_I_W···isco.php |
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telcodad
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:2 | OK, well, here we go again. Now the New York Post has an article today on Google wanting to dump Motorola's STB business:
Google looking to unload Motorola's TV set-top box business
NY Post - March 7, 2012
»www.nypost.com/p/news/business/p···zKw8aAZK
"This just in: The TV set-top box is on its deathbed.
Google is looking to unload the set-top box business it will inherit from Motorola Mobility even before it closes on the $12.5 billion acquisition, The Post has learned.
The move appears to be an about-face from last August, when Google CEO Larry Page, in announcing the deal, suggested the business would play a role in his plans for revolutionizing the living room.
Google isn’t the only player looking to get out of the business. As The Post reported exclusively last month, Cisco is also seeking to sell Scientific Atlanta, which along with Motorola has had a near duopoly on the set-top box business.
And at least two other smaller cable-box players, Pace and Thomson’s Technicolor, are also expected to test the marketplace by putting their businesses on the block, sources said." |
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telcodad
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:2 | An article on the Light Reading Cable site today about this:
Is the Set-Top Duopoly on Its Deathbed?
Light Reading Cable - March 7, 2012
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···r_cable&
"Getting out of the set-top box business appears to be the thing to do these days.
Following word that Cisco Systems Inc. wants to unload its set-top box unit comes a rumor that Google is eager to sell off Motorola Mobility Inc.'s box business even before the deal is consummated.
If both possibilities end up ringing true, then, ding-dong, the duopoly is dead. But, it's hard to blame them if they do indeed decide to bug out. The set-top box business isn't what it once was as margins drop and the traditional functions of the set-top box, including security, give way to set-top-free IP-connected TVs and tablets and more elegant software-based security systems that loosen their stranglehold on conditional access.
The set-top box is a dying breed, but the business isn't dead yet, nor will it be for many years. So, in the theoretical absence of the duopoly, what's domestic cable to do? Don't fret too much is a good starting point. Panasonic Corp. may have picked the worst time to exit the U.S. set-top box business, but there is no shortage of folks that are hungry to help cable operators bridge the chasm. Here are some of the leading candidates, plus a few dark horses."
[Followed by the author's list and discussion of the leading candidates and dark horses.] |
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| reply to miscDude
Hey miscDude, you seem to know a lot about the STB comms (let me guess, you're an embedded dev for them  ). So can you answer a question I had in another thread - why don't the Moto boxes cache the guide data to flash so you don't have to wait a couple of days to reload it after a power outage? Seems pretty archaic and a hassle for the customer in these days of whole home DVR tech. At a minimum you could only cache a couple of days if flash memory was tight, then pull the rest in over time. |
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miscDude
join:2005-03-24
Hendersonville, NC | said by GTFan:Hey miscDude, you seem to know a lot about the STB comms (let me guess, you're an embedded dev for them ). So can you answer a question I had in another thread - why don't the Moto boxes cache the guide data to flash so you don't have to wait a couple of days to reload it after a power outage? Seems pretty archaic and a hassle for the customer in these days of whole home DVR tech. At a minimum you could only cache a couple of days if flash memory was tight, then pull the rest in over time.
Well the first thing to remember..... there are still millions of legacy boxes (2000's and other older boxes) which are over 10yrs old out in the field. While the oldest boxes are starting to replaced as they are returned, there are still many many boxes out there that must be supported. Flash memory has only started to get to the maturity level that it could potentially survive the typical lifecycle of a cable STB (over 10yrs in the field with multiple write/erase cycles per day), or a cost level that it could POTENTIALLY be easy to justify the added functionality vs cost when you are talking millions of boxes being ordered/purchased at a time.
So the fact is, that while Flash memory could make some sense when looking at things today, 5 years ago it would've been a totally different story.... let alone 10yrs ago. Since you still have boxes designed and built out there in massive numbers, you must still support them and the way they were designed to work.
Also, as was mentioned before, Motorola code is designed that you have firmware specific to each box type, but then the "applications" such as the Guide software and other interactive clients (VOD/ etc) are pretty much universal and shared between the different box types and just hook into the API hooks built into the hardware specific firmware. (With exceptions such as for older box types with extremely limited memory availability, some newer advanced settops, etc). This simplifies things on the code development front since you can design/program one version of the app to work across several hardware platforms instead of designing completely separate apps for each type of hardware.... and is also a major OOB bandwidth saver since you aren't needing to push down unique versions of the apps for each box type in the field across the extremely limited pipe. As such, the code is often developed with the "lowest common denominator" approach to hardware/feature support; with some caveats. (You may see several versions of the app designed such as an "extremely low memory" version for ancient 2000 series boxes, "regular" flavored app for other legacy boxes, and then a "cablecard" version of the app designed for more recent motorola cablecard type boxes).
from both a marketting standpoint, and technical standpoint because of the OOB bandwidth constraints, It can be quite a big deal to get another revision/flavor of the core app approved to be added to a system which may add additional advanced features (such as the widescreen guide for HD boxes).
And I'm not even touching upon the time delays involved in getting new hardware with embedded rewriteable FLASH memory designed, tested, certified to be stable enough to be deployed to customers, purchased, distributed, and deployed to the field.
That answer your questions enough?
(remember.... this is all entirely conjecture based off my own opinions and understanding about some of the core facets on how things currently work.) |
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Russ
join:2011-03-17
Houston, TX
kudos:1 | Comcast is in the early process of rolling out On-Screen Guide 2.0 on new Cisco RNG 200-N to support AnyRoom DVR functionality in SA/Cisco set-top box markets. Currently, it is only available in about 6 states. This new guide will eventually be rolled out to all SA/Cisco RNG set-top boxes and modern Motorola set-top boxes that can support Tru2way and the new guide. The new set-top boxes haven't changed the way guide data is downloaded and since Comcast didn't add Flash memory to store guide data I don't think they will in the near future. Any set-top box that doesn't support either On-Screen Guide 2.0 or X1 (On-Screen Guide 3.0 - Xfinity Spectrum DVR) will eventually become a legacy box.
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SA 8300 HD DVRs with Patched S25 Guide
Links:
'S25 Guide Blog' 'Schedule' 'Info' 'Patch Thread' |
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telcodad
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:2 | reply to miscDude
A follow-up blog item on the Light Reading Cable site today, on why Google may want to dump Motorola's STB business:
Why Google Will Dump Moto's Cable Biz
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - March 8, 2012
»www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?bl···r_cable&
"2:05 PM -- If Google does indeed try to sell off Motorola Mobility Inc.'s set-top box business after the acquisition closes, why in the wide, wide world of sports would it stop there?
Moto's cable business also includes set-top modems, cable modem termination systems (CMTSs), edge QAMs, video servers and video software that's not Android. Does anyone really believe that Google, despite its interesting fiber experiment in mid-America, will want to hold on to any of that? I can't find anyone who does, despite Moto's defense of it.
As one cable insider put it to me: One of the big reasons why Motorola Mobility has kept the cable business around is because it's a short-term cash cow that's been funding its mobile handset business. "At Google, that motivation no longer matters. They have plenty of money," he says.
And besides not being a great fit at Google, Motorola's cable business probably doesn't have the kind of scale that's attractive to it. Moto's lumped-in cable business could pigeonhole a company that prefers to sell to the masses. While some cable guys like that Android might help them clear up their set-top box software issues, many in the industry simply don't trust Google, fearful that it will undermine what cable is trying to do on the set-top box.
From my discussions so far, there is widespread belief that Google is apt to saw off Moto's cable business and try to sell it off in whole or in parts, or just shut some stuff down.
The good news for Google is that it could find some buyers. Yesterday, we focused on some vendors that could help fill the gap with their existing set-top businesses. Today, here are some candidates that might flirt with buying part or all of Moto's cable business. (See: Is the Set-Top Duopoly on Its Deathbed? »www.lightreading.com/document.as···lr_cable )"
[Followed by the author's list and discussion of which companies may want to buy Moto's cable business.] |
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