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cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro to AVD

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Re: how close can a cell tower be to a house?

said by AVD:

Any wire that carries AC current creates RF. Shielded cable might shield it, but all conductors with an electric current that changes emit EM radiation.

Only the amount is insignificant since:
1 - the length of the circuit is insignificant compared to the wavelength
2 - there are 2 conductors carrying current in opposing directions effectively canceling the field.

For all practical purposes the field generated is 0.

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ

AVD

Premium Member

said by cowboyro:

[
2 - there are 2 conductors carrying current in opposing directions effectively canceling the field.

I don't think it works like that.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

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said by cowboyro:

said by AVD:

Any wire that carries AC current creates RF. Shielded cable might shield it, but all conductors with an electric current that changes emit EM radiation.

Only the amount is insignificant since:
1 - the length of the circuit is insignificant compared to the wavelength
2 - there are 2 conductors carrying current in opposing directions effectively canceling the field.

For all practical purposes the field generated is 0.

Take the input to any audio amplifier, and attach a small piece of wire or even your finger and touch it.

The 'hummmmmmm' you hear is radiation from the AC powerline.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

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said by AVD:

said by cowboyro:

[
2 - there are 2 conductors carrying current in opposing directions effectively canceling the field.

I don't think it works like that.

What you "think" doesn't matter as it's wrong.
cowboyro

cowboyro to fifty nine

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to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

Take the input to any audio amplifier, and attach a small piece of wire or even your finger and touch it.

The 'hummmmmmm' you hear is radiation from the AC powerline.

It's capacitive coupling. Not to be confused with electromagnetic radiation.
If you unplug all loads from a house the measured active power is pretty much the amount of power radiated. Zero.
If any significant amount of energy would be radiated then a GFI would trip instantly.
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

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said by AVD:

said by cowboyro:

[2 - there are 2 conductors carrying current in opposing directions effectively canceling the field.

I don't think it works like that.

You might not think it does, but the reality of it is, cowboyro is quite correct.

The primary factor required in order to generate a decent amount of a radiated signal, canceling excluded, is one needs a radiator tuned to the to the frequency to be radiated, which for a 60Hz quarter wave antenna is roughly 4 million feet, and unless you are dealing with a rather large structure I am willing to bet that is probably not going to be found in a straight run.

Wayne

AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ

AVD

Premium Member

I'm talking about how a circuit cancels each other out.

and yet my AM radio picks up 60hz hums all the time.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro

Premium Member

said by AVD:

I'm talking about how a circuit cancels each other out.

and yet my AM radio picks up 60hz hums all the time.

The AM radio is capable of picking up signals well below 1uV/m
An AM radio is also capable of picking a noise from a common electronic wrist watch.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

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fifty nine to cowboyro

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said by cowboyro:

It's capacitive coupling. Not to be confused with electromagnetic radiation.

Wait, what?

It's the same thing.

aurgathor
join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA

aurgathor

Member

said by fifty nine:

said by cowboyro:

It's capacitive coupling. Not to be confused with electromagnetic radiation.

Wait, what?

It's the same thing.

Nope. Capacitive coupling and RF pickup are 2 very different things. Capaqcitive coupling works only over relatively short distances while RF pickup, as long you have a powerful enough transmitter and a sensitive enough receiver, can work over very-very long distances.

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

2 recommendations

whizkid3

MVM

said by aurgathor:

said by fifty nine:

said by cowboyro:

It's capacitive coupling. Not to be confused with electromagnetic radiation.

Wait, what? It's the same thing.

Nope. Capacitive coupling and RF pickup are 2 very different things.

The actions of any capacitor work because of an electromagnetic field. Nothing more, nothing less. Radio waves are also due to electromagnetic fields.
See: Electromagnetic fields, Maxwell's equations.
The only difference between the two is that at a capacitor the near-field equations apply & the 'electric' portion of the field is stronger. It is still an EMF based on moving electric charges and does indeed radiate. Unless its part of resonant circuit, its not very useful as a transmitter.
quote:
In the past, electrically charged objects were thought to produce two different, unrelated types of field associated with their charge property. An electric field is produced when the charge is stationary with respect to an observer measuring the properties of the charge, and a magnetic field (as well as an electric field) is produced when the charge moves (creating an electric current) with respect to this observer. Over time, it was realized that the electric and magnetic fields are better thought of as two parts of a greater whole — the electromagnetic field.

if either the electric or magnetic field has a time-dependence, then both fields must be considered together as a coupled electromagnetic field using Maxwell's equations. A changing electromagnetic field which is physically close to currents and charges (see near and far field for a definition of “close”) will have a dipole characteristic that is dominated by either a changing electric dipole, or a changing magnetic dipole. This type of dipole field near sources is called an electromagnetic near-field.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro

Premium Member

said by whizkid3:

It is still an EMF based on moving electric charges and does indeed radiate. Unless its part of resonant circuit, its not very useful as a transmitter.

Which in turn means that the amount of energy radiated is negligible.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

said by cowboyro:

said by whizkid3:

It is still an EMF based on moving electric charges and does indeed radiate. Unless its part of resonant circuit, its not very useful as a transmitter.

Which in turn means that the amount of energy radiated is negligible.

»www.stopgeek.com/richard ··· eld.html

Nice public art project.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro

Premium Member

said by fifty nine:

»www.stopgeek.com/richard ··· eld.html
Nice public art project.

Doesn't mean anything. He's just shunting the air gap between the lines and the ground creating a path for the current to flow.
You can make a fluorescent tube glow from the static charge you collect.

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3 to cowboyro

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said by cowboyro:

Which in turn means that the amount of energy radiated is negligible.

That is true. Capacitors are designed to keep most of the field between their two plates.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to cowboyro

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said by cowboyro:

said by fifty nine:

»www.stopgeek.com/richard ··· eld.html
Nice public art project.

Doesn't mean anything. He's just shunting the air gap between the lines and the ground creating a path for the current to flow.
You can make a fluorescent tube glow from the static charge you collect.

Actually most of what is radiated from powerlines is through electromagnetic induction or EM which is how this works. There is still some ELF being radiated but it is pretty small. It is still there though, and it's how touch lamps and other touch controls used to work (I have no idea if they still use that).

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

1 edit

cowboyro

Premium Member

said by fifty nine:

Actually most of what is radiated from powerlines is through electromagnetic induction or EM which is how this works. There is still some ELF being radiated but it is pretty small. It is still there though, and it's how touch lamps and other touch controls used to work (I have no idea if they still use that).

Those are capacitive sensors.
The vectors of the electric and magnetic field are perpendicular to the direction of propagation. EM radiation would induce a current in a receiving "antenna" placed parallel to the wire.

SparkChaser
Premium Member
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA

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to aurgathor
said by aurgathor:

RF pickup, as long you have a powerful enough transmitter and a sensitive enough receiver, can work over very-very long distances.

Voyager comes to mind @ 120 astronomical units distance

»voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/spa ··· dex.html

C_Chipperson
Monster Rain
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join:2009-01-17
00000

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to cowboyro
said by cowboyro:

said by fifty nine:

Actually most of what is radiated from powerlines is through electromagnetic induction or EM which is how this works. There is still some ELF being radiated but it is pretty small. It is still there though, and it's how touch lamps and other touch controls used to work (I have no idea if they still use that).

Those are capacitive sensors.
The vectors of the electric and magnetic field are perpendicular to the direction of propagation. EM radiation would induce a current in a receiving "antenna" placed parallel to the wire.

I think that's what my Samsung LNT5271F has (silver strip below the SAMSUNG logo)



fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

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said by cowboyro:

Those are capacitive sensors.

Yep, now they are capacitive because that is also reliable but older lamps depended on the fact that you were a good antenna for 60Hz AC.

»pcbheaven.com/wikipages/ ··· n_works/

The vectors of the electric and magnetic field are perpendicular to the direction of propagation. EM radiation would induce a current in a receiving "antenna" placed parallel to the wire.

Even if it weren't parallel there would still be some induction.

cowboyro
Premium Member
join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro

Premium Member

said by fifty nine:

Even if it weren't parallel there would still be some induction.

Not if the "antenna" is perpendicular.
Those tubes would glow even if the lines were carrying DC. DC does not generate EM radiation.
Example of fluorescent glow with a Van de Graaff generator:

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· pxc6stMo