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zorxd
join:2010-02-05
Quebec, QC

zorxd to morisato

Member

to morisato

Re: Acanac Enforces Technical ITMP Does it follow Crtc Rules?

Well I agree that if they throttle during extended hours in the week end this is not fair since it's not written on the web site.

However so far they do not.

I also think they answer all 5 criteria. Which 3 do you think they do not answer?
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato

Member

o whether or not technical ITMPs are being used and, if so, what effect they have on the ISPs retail Internet services;

They show the speed reduction and we can make the Connection But they do not say it very clearly that They are enforcing a technical ITMP

what type of Internet traffic is subject to management รข€“ for example, upstream peer-to-peer file sharing applications; and

o how the ITMP will affect a users Internet experience, including the specific effect on speeds; and

i understand they Effect all traffic and you Understand it but They do not offically State it anywhere, Also the How it will affect a users experience is lacking In its entirety.

And a Key point
and in customer contracts and terms of service:

When signing up in the Terms of Service On there webpage there is No mention of the ITMp or any of the 5 criteria that must be satisfied In the Terms of service or user agreements, Whatsoever.

The ruling may have been brought about BY bell and its actions but it applys to all ISPS who are governed by the Crtc which Includes acanac.
zorxd
join:2010-02-05
Quebec, QC

zorxd

Member

said by morisato:

They show the speed reduction and we can make the Connection But they do not say it very clearly that They are enforcing a technical ITMP

yes they are. What part of "Peak Hour Rate Limit - 7PM to 12AM 3Mbps/800Kbps" don't you understand?
said by morisato:

i understand they Effect all traffic and you Understand it but They do not offically State it anywhere, Also the How it will affect a users experience is lacking In its entirety.

This is implied (and obvious) that this requirement is only valid if the throttling do not affect all traffic. The user experience is obvious. Half speed.
If you think you have a point go complain to the CRTC. I will be happy to watch you loose.
said by morisato:

When signing up in the Terms of Service On there webpage there is No mention of the ITMp or any of the 5 criteria that must be satisfied In the Terms of service or user agreements, Whatsoever.

It's all there »acanac.com/DSL.html
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato

Member

said by zorxd:

said by morisato:

They show the speed reduction and we can make the Connection But they do not say it very clearly that They are enforcing a technical ITMP

yes they are. What part of "Peak Hour Rate Limit - 7PM to 12AM 3Mbps/800Kbps" don't you understand?
said by morisato:

i understand they Effect all traffic and you Understand it but They do not offically State it anywhere, Also the How it will affect a users experience is lacking In its entirety.

This is implied (and obvious) that this requirement is only valid if the throttling do not affect all traffic. The user experience is obvious. Half speed.
If you think you have a point go complain to the CRTC. I will be happy to watch you loose.
said by morisato:

When signing up in the Terms of Service On there webpage there is No mention of the ITMp or any of the 5 criteria that must be satisfied In the Terms of service or user agreements, Whatsoever.

It's all there »acanac.com/DSL.html

»acanac.com/User-Agreement.html
I've Read the user agreement front to Back Thats right there and There is No Section for ITMP nor any other of the required Info provided in it. It Specifically Addresses a great deal of Voip issues and Do not sue me issues but Nowhere does the User agreement Cover technical Itmps. and The Commisson specificed Clearly And Prominently An Implied piece of information is neither clear nor prominent.
zorxd
join:2010-02-05
Quebec, QC

zorxd

Member

OK maybe they should do a copy and past from their DSL.html to their User-Agreement.html but that's it.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to morisato

Premium Member

to morisato
said by morisato:

....When signing up in the Terms of Service on there webpage there is No mention of the ITMp or any of the 5 criteria that must be satisfied In the Terms of service or user agreements, Whatsoever.

 
....Acanac DOES need to update their ToS.

ALSO, their ToS contains multiple spelling errors.

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

Canaca to zorxd

Premium Member

to zorxd
We are currently not implementing any of the rate limits. (Aside from a few hundred Beta testers)

We have a bit of extra capacity still left so no need to rate limit anyone.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato

Member

said by Canaca:

We are currently not implementing any of the rate limits. (Aside from a few hundred Beta testers)

We have a bit of extra capacity still left so no need to rate limit anyone.

When will your Website properly Reflect The ITMP policy and itmp framework the crtc has laid out?

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

1 edit

Davesnothere to Canaca

Premium Member

to Canaca
said by Canaca:

We are currently not implementing any of the rate limits. (Aside from a few hundred Beta testers)

We have a bit of extra capacity still left so no need to rate limit anyone.

 
Good Afternoon !

Flu gone ?

Please tell everybody once again your plan is NOT to throw a switch at 7PM which cuts everyone's speed in half for 5 hours.

THAT is what many folks think is going to happen.

Instead, you will nibble away as needed at the max speed of each account, but maybe only for PART of that period, and not necessarily cutting their speeds in half, unless things get REALLY busy, and even THEN, only for as long as needed within that 5-hour period.

And please feel free to quote me, if you think that I explained it well.

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

Canaca to morisato

Premium Member

to morisato
Like I mentioned above we are currently not doing any rate limiting. We also don't plan to do any in the near future. We will give everyone at least 30 days notice.
Canaca

Canaca to Davesnothere

Premium Member

to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

said by Canaca:

We are currently not implementing any of the rate limits. (Aside from a few hundred Beta testers)

We have a bit of extra capacity still left so no need to rate limit anyone.

 
Good Afternoon !

Flu gone ?

Please tell everybody once again your plan is NOT to throw a switch at 7PM which cuts everyone's speed in half for 5 hours.

THAT is what many folks think is going to happen.

Instead, you will nibble away as needed at the max speed of each account, but maybe only for PART of that period, and not necessarily cutting their speeds in half, unless things get REALLY busy, and even THEN, only for as long as needed within that 5-hour period.

And please feel free to quote me, if you think that I explained it well.

I feel better. Nearly 100%

That is correct. We are not going to half the speed for the 5 hour period. It will only be applied on a as need basis. A good example is right now. It's not needed so we are not imposing it.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato to Canaca

Member

to Canaca
said by Canaca:

We are currently not implementing any of the rate limits. (Aside from a few hundred Beta testers)

I Hope Said beta testers are Voluntary, and being Compensated for the service. bit of a Mixed message on the website Shows the rate limits and such all visible does not say not currently employed etc..

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

Canaca

Premium Member

said by morisato:

said by Canaca:

We are currently not implementing any of the rate limits. (Aside from a few hundred Beta testers)

I Hope Said beta testers are Voluntary, and being Compensated for the service. bit of a Mixed message on the website Shows the rate limits and such all visible does not say not currently employed etc..

Yes they are Voluntary. In any case we will be getting clarification from the CRTC if we fall under ITMPS. I personally don't belive we do since we are just offering a plan type. A plan type that has different speeds at different times and is clearly advertised as so.

Once again the CRTC is in the best position to decide. I will see about getting a filing in by weeks end.

As for the web site it's advertised as such because one day we may need to implement the rate limits. Clients need to be made fully aware of these rate limits.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to morisato

Member

to morisato
said by morisato:

I Hope Said beta testers are Voluntary, and being Compensated for the service.

I don't see why anyone should be compensated for getting the service exactly as-advertised. At most, they might be offered an option to opt-out until Acanac goes full-scale with it.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei to morisato

Premium Member

to morisato
if they sell a 30mbps package that is rate limited to 15mbps during peak hours, it would seem rather obvious that the information about the "ITMP" would be "IN YOUR FACE" on their web site.

It is not clear to me that this is really an ITMP. Yeah, technically it is because they rate limite traffic to manage congestion. But on the other hand, they way they do it is no different than just lowering the speed of your modem.

On the other hand, they slow down all traffic (which is NON discriminatory), but they also slow down time sensitive traffic (which is a no no according to 2010-659)

However, since 15mbps is still plenty for your phone , video and gaming needs, this rate limit doesn't really impede those applications.

At the philosophical level, I have 0 problem with what Mr Acanac Inc is doing. But I can see how it could be seen as infringing 659 when interpreted certain ways.
morisato
join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON

morisato to Canaca

Member

to Canaca
said by Canaca:

said by morisato:

said by Canaca:

We are currently not implementing any of the rate limits. (Aside from a few hundred Beta testers)

I Hope Said beta testers are Voluntary, and being Compensated for the service. bit of a Mixed message on the website Shows the rate limits and such all visible does not say not currently employed etc..

Yes they are Voluntary. In any case we will be getting clarification from the CRTC if we fall under ITMPS. I personally don't belive we do since we are just offering a plan type. A plan type that has different speeds at different times and is clearly advertised as so.

Once again the CRTC is in the best position to decide. I will see about getting a filing in by weeks end.

As for the web site it's advertised as such because one day we may need to implement the rate limits. Clients need to be made fully aware of these rate limits.

So for a Monthly user of acanacs Service That was Signed up prior to The ITMP it will not affect Them? Or will it? Myself i think That it is a ITMP your imposing as it will be on all your users to my understanding if its only on new signups then its up in the air totally. Definitely a wise move to Consult the Crtc or your regulatory lawyers on it.
morisato

morisato to jfmezei

Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

if they sell a 30mbps package that is rate limited to 15mbps during peak hours, it would seem rather obvious that the information about the "ITMP" would be "IN YOUR FACE" on their web site.

It is not clear to me that this is really an ITMP. Yeah, technically it is because they rate limite traffic to manage congestion. But on the other hand, they way they do it is no different than just lowering the speed of your modem.

On the other hand, they slow down all traffic (which is NON discriminatory), but they also slow down time sensitive traffic (which is a no no according to 2010-659)

However, since 15mbps is still plenty for your phone , video and gaming needs, this rate limit doesn't really impede those applications.

At the philosophical level, I have 0 problem with what Mr Acanac Inc is doing. But I can see how it could be seen as infringing 659 when interpreted certain ways.

I agree that i am not Philosophically against it But it seemed like a fun forum point to bring up , Now JF in the case that they Rate limit a 6/800 Dsl connection Can the same be said that 3mbps is still Plenty for your phone video and gaming needs for your time Sensitive traffic?

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

Canaca to morisato

Premium Member

to morisato
said by morisato:

So for a Monthly user of acanacs Service That was Signed up prior to The ITMP it will not affect Them? Or will it? Myself i think That it is a ITMP your imposing as it will be on all your users to my understanding if its only on new signups then its up in the air totally. Definitely a wise move to Consult the Crtc or your regulatory lawyers on it.

Our rate limits will be applied after term renewal. This goes for 1,3,6 and 12 months terms.

Our regulatory lawyer does not belive it applies however it is best to clarify it with the CRTC.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to morisato

Premium Member

to morisato
said by morisato:

said by jfmezei:

if they sell a 30mbps package that is rate limited to 15mbps during peak hours....

....However, since 15mbps is still plenty for your phone , video and gaming needs, this rate limit doesn't really impede those applications....

....Now JF in the case that they Rate limit a 6/800 Dsl connection Can the same be said that 3mbps is still Plenty for your phone video and gaming needs for your time Sensitive traffic?

 
Might be Tight.

Canaca
Premium Member
join:2007-03-05
Mississauga, ON

Canaca

Premium Member

said by Davesnothere:

said by morisato:

said by jfmezei:

if they sell a 30mbps package that is rate limited to 15mbps during peak hours....

....However, since 15mbps is still plenty for your phone , video and gaming needs, this rate limit doesn't really impede those applications....

....Now JF in the case that they Rate limit a 6/800 Dsl connection Can the same be said that 3mbps is still Plenty for your phone video and gaming needs for your time Sensitive traffic?

 
Might be Tight.

I think allot people are missing the point here. We are selling a service that has an up-to 6Mbps from 12AM to 7PM and a minimum of 3Mbps from 7PM to 12AM. (If sync rates allow)

If 3Mbps is not enough it would be no different than all they other sub 3Mbps plans offered by our competitors. The client would need to upgrade to another plan. Just like any other ISP. Once again these plans are marketed for what they are. Different speeds at different times of the day.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by Canaca:

I think allot people are missing the point here. We are selling a service that has an up-to 6Mbps from 12AM to 7PM and a minimum of 3Mbps from 7PM to 12AM. (If sync rates allow)

If 3Mbps is not enough it would be no different than all they other sub 3Mbps plans offered by our competitors. The client would need to upgrade to another plan. Just like any other ISP. Once again these plans are marketed for what they are. Different speeds at different times of the day.

 
And I for one have no problems with that, given how openly you represent it.

The latest part of the conversation was only a technological observation, I think.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983 to Canaca

Premium Member

to Canaca
I don't believe the section on time-sensitive stuff in 2009-657 applies, as dropping from 30mbps to 15mbps wouldn't really cause a noticeable degradation of the service.. Maybe unless you're running OnLive or something.. I mean, even at that you can still stream Youtube easily. Congestion would cause more problems with video streaming, then dropping people to 15mbps temporarily for a few hours.
quote:
124.
The Commission notes that the degree to which an application or service is delayed may have an impact on its performance. Furthermore, transmission delays may affect some types of applications or services more than others. For these reasons, it is important to identify which types of traffic and/or applications would be impacted by transmission delays.

125.
In the case of time-sensitive audio or video traffic (i.e. real-time audio or video such as video conferencing and voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) services), ITMPs that introduce delays or jitter15 are likely to cause degradation to the service. The Commission considers that when noticeable degradation occurs, it amounts to controlling the content and influencing the meaning and purpose of the telecommunications in question.

126.
Accordingly, the Commission finds that use of an ITMP resulting in the noticeable degradation of time-sensitive Internet traffic will require prior Commission approval under section 36 of the Act.