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rogersmogers

@start.ca
reply to mlord

Re: Start Communications - new TPIA Rogers/Cogeco

said by mlord:

said by rogersmogers :

said by mlord:

Well, the Start.ca TOS are not clear enough for my needs, but I have referred a buddy over to them. He'll act as my guinea pig.

You have made this statement 3 times in the past month or so but you never respond when people ask what you are talking about.

I need the TOS to explicitly permit running (low bandwidth) servers.

Cheers

WHy?
And what Gone said. TOS are what you can't do, not what you can do.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by mlord:

But to save you the trouble, I need the TOS to explicitly permit running (low bandwidth) servers.

TOSs are a prohibitory statement, not permissive, therefore not only will you never find that kind of statement, but you don't need one either. Why you've convinced yourself you do is something all of us here still don't understand and you've done nothing to convince anyone here (including the guys at Start) why you do.

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that, if not explicitly permitted, then such things can be revoked without notice.

For now, I won't shift to start.ca unless that gets fixed. This doesn't affect me, but it does leave start.ca with one less customer, and a lot of missed referrals.

Cheers

Guru

join:2008-10-01
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
said by mlord:

For now, I won't shift to start.ca unless that gets fixed. This doesn't affect me, but it does leave start.ca with one less customer, and a lot of missed referrals.

Cheers

I don't believe that's a good attitude! If you want ToS to be changed/updated or bring up some points then you should get in touch with Start by contacting them.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to mlord
said by mlord:

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that, if not explicitly permitted, then such things can be revoked without notice.

But they can do that anyway even if it is allowed.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to mlord
said by mlord:

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that, if not explicitly permitted, then such things can be revoked without notice.

... you mean by changing the terms of the TOS to specifically prohibit it? The same way they could remove a permissive statement from a TOS to prohibit something that was previously allowed? The TOS that they can change any time they want? Seriously? That's your argument?

Quite frankly, you have no clue what a TOS is for or what purpose it serves. It is not a permissive document. If it were, it would list every single thing you are permitted to do with your Internet connection and anything not explicitly listed would be prohibited. Considering that there aren't enough trees in Canada to make the paper to print a document like that, you can obviously see that this is not the purpose it serves. Rather, it is a prohibitory document that what you can't use your connection for. Anything not explicitly listed is permitted. It would only not be permitted if they amended their TOS to specifically state such.

said by mlord:

For now, I won't shift to start.ca unless that gets fixed. This doesn't affect me, but it does leave start.ca with one less customer, and a lot of missed referrals.

If this whole line of conversation is any indication, you strike me as the kind of customer they probably won't mind not having.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
What's up with all of this hostility?

I'm simply stating something that I need from an ISP, so that Start.ca will know and hopefully fill that niche. Simple as that. I've even sent one customer their way already, and have quite a few more who follow my recommendations.

Nothing negative, and I'm actually quite positive about Start.ca.
And Rocca does at least now know what some of us are looking for.

Cheers


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
We already explained to you why you're never going to get what you want multiple times. Anything beyond that is a waste of bandwidth.


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
reply to mlord
I'd be curious to see how far apart you and Rocca would be on the definition of "low bandwidth".

After all, we're talking about a consumer connection here. It seems to me that if what the servers were doing is so important that you want to protect that with specifics in a ToS, what you should actually be doing is going with a business connection, maybe even with an SLA (something Cogeco doesn't even do).

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged
Expand your moderator at work


rogersmogers

@start.ca
reply to mlord

Re: Start Communications - new TPIA Rogers/Cogeco

said by mlord:

said by Gone:

said by mlord:

But to save you the trouble, I need the TOS to explicitly permit running (low bandwidth) servers.

TOSs are a prohibitory statement, not permissive, therefore not only will you never find that kind of statement, but you don't need one either. Why you've convinced yourself you do is something all of us here still don't understand and you've done nothing to convince anyone here (including the guys at Start) why you do.

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that, if not explicitly permitted, then such things can be revoked without notice.

For now, I won't shift to start.ca unless that gets fixed. This doesn't affect me, but it does leave start.ca with one less customer, and a lot of missed referrals.

Cheers

It wouldn't matter anyways because TOS can be changed daily if they so choose.


tatty

join:2002-02-23
North York, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to mlord
said by mlord:

What's up with all of this hostility?

I'm simply stating something that I need from an ISP, so that Start.ca will know and hopefully fill that niche. Simple as that. I've even sent one customer their way already, and have quite a few more who follow my recommendations.

Nothing negative, and I'm actually quite positive about Start.ca.
And Rocca does at least now know what some of us are looking for.

Cheers

Could you point me to an ISP ToS that has what you want? I'm just curious to see how common what you want is in the industry.

Thanks


rogersmogers

@start.ca
said by tatty:

said by mlord:

What's up with all of this hostility?

I'm simply stating something that I need from an ISP, so that Start.ca will know and hopefully fill that niche. Simple as that. I've even sent one customer their way already, and have quite a few more who follow my recommendations.

Nothing negative, and I'm actually quite positive about Start.ca.
And Rocca does at least now know what some of us are looking for.

Cheers

Could you point me to an ISP ToS that has what you want? I'm just curious to see how common what you want is in the industry.

Thanks

I know TSI doesn't have it.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to rogersmogers
said by rogersmogers :

It wouldn't matter anyways because TOS can be changed daily if they so choose.

Exactly, which is why I don't understand this being an "issue" or anything of the sort.

robman50

join:2010-12-14
Beamsville, ON
reply to rocca
Could I still use my Cogeco digital phone if I get START as my internet provider?

vonSchroeder

join:2004-11-12
Hamilton, ON
Yes, but you will need a separate modem from Start and the ATA/modem you currently have will only be used for the phone service. This also means you will need another split in the cable for the Start modem. I don't know if this means you will need to pay the install fee for a Cogeco tech to make the additional split.


rogersmogers

@start.ca
reply to mlord
said by mlord:

What's up with all of this hostility?

I'm simply stating something that I need from an ISP, so that Start.ca will know and hopefully fill that niche. Simple as that. I've even sent one customer their way already, and have quite a few more who follow my recommendations.

Nothing negative, and I'm actually quite positive about Start.ca.
And Rocca does at least now know what some of us are looking for.

Cheers

Still waiting to hear why you need it.

robman50

join:2010-12-14
Beamsville, ON
reply to rocca
Was Start out in Smithville/West Lincoln area today? Cogeco has been out 8 hours in that area today.
So my first thought was did Start go out also?
Expand your moderator at work


Who cares

@videotron.ca
reply to rogersmogers

Re: Start Communications - new TPIA Rogers/Cogeco

said by rogersmogers :

Still waiting to hear why you need it.

Maybe he runs a small proxy for dissidents?

Maybe he runs a slow-ass FTP server

Maybe an Email server

Maybe Anonymous uses it to hack Vic Toews?

Does it really matter? Does anyone really need to pry into his private life and need to know what he does on the net?


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by Who cares :

Does it really matter? Does anyone really need to pry into his private life and need to know what he does on the net?

When someone is making an otherwise completely unreasonable request, you're damn right we want to know why.


Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
said by Gone:

When someone is making an otherwise completely unreasonable request, you're damn right we want to know why.

Well, running servers from home is not an unreasonable request. But you know, police state, RoBellUs sucks, and all that...

Personally I think worrying about the exact TOS is kind of pointless--what you don't read can't hurt you--but I understand why he'd like what he's asking for.
--
electronicsguru.ca


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by Teddy Boom:

Well, running servers from home is not an unreasonable request. But you know, police state, RoBellUs sucks, and all that...
Personally I think worrying about the exact TOS is kind of pointless--what you don't read can't hurt you--but I understand why he'd like what he's asking for.

Requesting a permissive statement in a TOS about running servers was what was unreasonable, not the servers in themselves.


Who cares

@videotron.ca
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by Who cares :

Does it really matter? Does anyone really need to pry into his private life and need to know what he does on the net?

When someone is making an otherwise completely unreasonable request, you're damn right we want to know why.

It's not unreasonable. Nor is what he does, or want, any of your business.

His question is very straight forward:
said by mlord:

I need the TOS to explicitly permit running (low bandwidth) servers.

Cheers

I don't see the issue.

As far as I see it, if the TOS does not state servers are forbidden, then one can accept that it is allowed.

In addition Start states:
We do not attempt to censor, control or monitor any such content or activity

So again, this shows that yes, you can run a server 24/7. They won't control or monitor what you use it for. Start says so right there. It's pretty plain and easy to read & understand. Only Mlord doesn't seem to grasp the easy and plain language of the ToS.

So yeah, run an xDCC bot, proxy, bounce, and whatever else you want. They don't care. They even state that.

Maybe mlord runs a 56K dial-up service that connects to his cable. Who cares. Start doesn't.

Actually, Rocca, I like your ToS. It isn't mind numbing. Thumbs up to that.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by Who cares :

It's not unreasonable. Nor is what he does, or want, any of your business.

It is unreasonable when one knows understands the context of a TOS. If you feel differently, you can then count yourself as someone who doesn't know what a TOS is for or what it does.

As for it being anyone's business, it became our business the moment he posted to a public Internet forum about it.


FaxCaps

@start.ca
reply to rocca
*whistles* Still waiting


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
said by FaxCaps :

*whistles* Still waiting

Did I miss something ...or waiting for someone else? (only ask because it was the OP that was quoted). Thanks.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
reply to Who cares
said by Who cares :

Actually, Rocca, I like your ToS. It isn't mind numbing. Thumbs up to that.

Thanks, we try to be decent folk here.

robman50

join:2010-12-14
Beamsville, ON
reply to rocca
I got a question about Start as a company. Usually when there is a small company out there that does well (in this case Start), the bigger company (Cogeco or Rogers) will take out the smaller guy.
Will this ever happen to Start that they will go out of business? I hope not!
That is my only worry about going to Start is that they will go out of business. Hopefully that will never happen.


rocca
Start.ca
Premium
join:2008-11-16
London, ON
kudos:23
We've been around almost 20 years now, no plans on going any where any time soon.

robman50

join:2010-12-14
Beamsville, ON
That is very good news.