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elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

Lack of communications faclities in Northern Ontario

Interesting story in the paper today about a company that wants to reopen an open pit graphite mine NE of Huntsville.

It's not the mine, nor the jobs, but the lack of commmunication (Cell/internet) in the area.

A side issue for the mine is the fact that until the company puts up a satellite dish, the operation will be in communication darkness.

The lack of phone and Internet infrastructure is a long-standing issue for the area, Kearney Mayor Paul Tomlinson told the Star.

Aided by cottagers, he has been after Bell Canada and the federal and provincial governments to serve the area with fibre-optic cables and cell coverage, but the requests have been met with polite rebuff.

Yes the free markets have decided, there is no need for Internet in remote areas of the province, or Cell service at that.

»www.thestar.com/business ··· ntsville
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError

Member

said by elwoodblues:

Yes the free markets have decided, there is no need for Internet in remote areas of the province, or Cell service at that.

There may be a need but that does not mean that there is a financially viable way to meet it within normal price structures. If a remote mine wants a local cell network with satellite uplink, I'm sure they can cook up something with whoever owns spectrum licenses in the area provided the mining operation covers the custom build's costs.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

said by InvalidError:

said by elwoodblues:

Yes the free markets have decided, there is no need for Internet in remote areas of the province, or Cell service at that.

There may be a need but that does not mean that there is a financially viable way to meet it within normal price structures. If a remote mine wants a local cell network with satellite uplink, I'm sure they can cook up something with whoever owns spectrum licenses in the area provided the mining operation covers the custom build's costs.

The story does go on to say that they are using a satellite uplink, that's all they got.

But the same argument can be made for land lines, it's not "feasible" to put land lines in the north like that. At the same time major urban centres are the ones that are subsiding these more remote communities, they did on the landline side and should continue to do so with the Internet.

Hell there are no friggen Cell towers up their either.

No sorry this is more a case of corporate greed then anything else, the bean counters don't see business case.

Guspaz
Guspaz
MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

1 recommendation

Guspaz to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues
So, if Bell cannot provide service without losing money, at any price (price too low, there aren't enough people to cover costs, price too high, people won't subscribe), then they're greedy for not wanting to lose money?

Sorry, that's bullshit. Bell is not a charity, they're a business. If providing the service would lose money, it's not reasonable to expect them to do it. It's not greed to refuse to lose money. That's why public subsidies exist.

BliZZardX
Premium Member
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
·Bell Fibe Internet

4 edits

BliZZardX to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues
Building landlines out here may be unfeasable but it's also completely unnecessary. I've read about so many northern communities like Moosonee, ON building out HFC cable networks and successfully running home phone service over VoIP. I even believe Nexicom is the main ISP for their backhual. They don't need Bell out there installing landlines for them.

If the mining company figure out who owns spectrum in the area they could work something out to throw up a tower or two for cellular service. Rogers wireless has a base station 6 kilometers away from Kearney, along Hwy 11. Bell is nearby too. Microwave radios not are present here according to TAFL, so there is definitely fiber along Hwy 11 Bell/Rogers are using and local communities could tap into. 6 km is really not a long distance to cover... if they really wanted to they could grab a spool of fiber and trenching equipment and do it all by themselves. There can't be as many RoW/permit issues as there are in urban areas.
Rayson
join:2004-01-01
Canada

Rayson to Guspaz

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to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

Sorry, that's bullshit. Bell is not a charity, they're a business. If providing the service would lose money, it's not reasonable to expect them to do it. It's not greed to refuse to lose money. That's why public subsidies exist.

Exactly. Just like we wouldn't expect Pizza/KFC/McD taking delivery orders in remote areas.

Satellite internet is cheaper in this case, and is less damaging to the environment (think about the carbon generated by digging land, laying fiber, etc...).
Vomio
join:2008-04-01

Vomio to BliZZardX

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to BliZZardX
That would be my take on it too up to a point, the point where you fire up the trencher. Think trees, water and rock. Wireless or overhead are the options.

This mine is in Southern Ontario BTW, cottage country, although Torontonians seem to think Northern Ontario starts at Barrie.

IIRC last time I drove it, Hwy 11 to North Bay had cellular all the way.

So it probably comes down to whether servicing makes sense for a few dozen seasonal cottages and a single employer who probably doesn't want the servicing tab.


BliZZardX
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join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON

BliZZardX to Rayson

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LoL less damaging to the environment. I hope you didn't see the article is about operating an open pit mine..
Rayson
join:2004-01-01
Canada

Rayson

Member

said by BliZZardX:

LoL less damaging to the environment. I hope you didn't see the article is about operating an open pit mine..

You are not making any sense. I don't see the relationship between operating an open pit mine and the need to dig up more land to lay fiber.

BliZZardX
Premium Member
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
·Bell Fibe Internet

BliZZardX to elwoodblues

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to elwoodblues
The mine seems to be an hour driving distance from Kearney. And there's literally nothing else around them. So there really isn't even a business case for fiber anymore. I though there would at least be a town close there.

So now we're looking at maybe 20-25KM point to point which is still doable with microwave.



pnjunction
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Toronto, ON

pnjunction to elwoodblues

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said by elwoodblues:

major urban centres are the ones that are subsiding these more remote communities, they did on the landline side and should continue to do so with the Internet.

How about no. Hating Toronto is practically a provincial pastime why should we all pay more so that people in areas where things are cheaper can have subsidized services. It's already bad enough with rates being pretty much the same everywhere, let alone forcing companies to lose money providing service to the middle of nowhere (they won't lose the money they'll get it from customers in feasible areas).

In general I get a bit annoyed by people whining about poor choices in remote areas, you picked a comfortable bed to lay in don't complain when you find the fridge and TV are too far away and expect everyone to pitch in and buy more.

BliZZardX
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join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
·Bell Fibe Internet

BliZZardX to Rayson

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I don't know if you were trolling or what, the fiber only needs to be buried a few inches deep. It's not like they have to install a gas pipeline or anything. You don't need the diesel fueled heavy equipment unless you're cutting through kilometers of concrete. The whole route could be manually trenched to the side of existing roads.
Rayson
join:2004-01-01
Canada

Rayson

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No matter how deep, there is still work needed to dig up the land. The cost of doing that is not zero, and CO2 is generated.

If wireless is already working for the company now, I don't see the need to do so much extra work.
jfmezei
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join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei to BliZZardX

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First of all, Huntsville is not northern ontario. (it may be to folks in toronto who think Barrie is at the the north pole).

Bell has learned that by not installing it on its own, the provincial or federal govt will give it a subsidy to install it.

My guess is that the mine will go to Tony Clement and ask forG8 funds that weren't used to build gazebos to be used to bring fibre to the town and to the mine.

12km of fibre isn't hard to install especially if there is already a road and perhaps even hydro poles.

BliZZardX
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join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON

BliZZardX

Premium Member

I didn't say Huntsville is northern Ontario, I said Moosonee - a town of ~1700 people south of James Bay that's only accessible by rail. If these guys can get fiber, anyone can. As long as there is existing roads/rail/hydro along the way.
BliZZardX

BliZZardX to Rayson

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Well if it's working so well stop complaining and use satellite. Why are we even talking about this? Thread over.
freejazz_RdJ
join:2009-03-10

freejazz_RdJ to jfmezei

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12KM as the crow flies. The drive distance for the fiber route would be much more. Unless the mine wants to pay a huge construction charge (probably in the 6 figures) they won't get wired service.

This is a business. Their business plan should include the cost of telecommunications and if they are sky high, then the mine isn't viable. End of story. I am mildly supportive of using the subsidy mechanism to support lifeline voice service in very high cost areas. But not for businesses. And the CRTC agrees: service providers don't receive high cost subsidies for business NAS. And opening up the subsidy pool for data will cost urban consumers billions in subsidies and probably won't yield the most economically efficient use of funds.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to BliZZardX

to BliZZardX
said by BliZZardX:

I didn't say Huntsville is northern Ontario, I said Moosonee - a town of ~1700 people south of James Bay that's only accessible by rail. If these guys can get fiber, anyone can. As long as there is existing roads/rail/hydro along the way.

Railway right of way? Fibre is a no-brainer. In addition, there is a hospital in Moosonee and it's also the provincial service centre, therefore lots of government infrastructure. With the province adding OTN for medical care in the north, fibre is essential. Thus there is a business case. That's not the situation in Kearney.
Vomio
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Doing the Star's research, there appears to be another graphite mine coming on line on the other side of the Park at Bisset Creek.

I wonder how they are doing for connectivity?

Looks as if Algonquin Park would be the world's largest source of pencil leads and flaky carbon if nobody was watching.

I vote for blasting an access road and trunk between Hwy 17 and 11, that'll give the cottagers youtubes on the weekends and they can make pencils along the way with the graphite and the locally sourced cedar.

zong
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join:2005-07-21
Scarborough, ON

zong to BliZZardX

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An hour? More like an hour and a half. Our hunt camp is right up there (a couple km away) those roads are so bloody curvy and crazy and tight it's nuts.

And yeah. Pretty much nobody lives up there. I can count the permanent residents on one hand. Joking, but only a little. There are quite a few cottaging resort / cabin outfits catering to the summer time locals and skidooers. It's all rocky as hell up there too. Trenching wouldn't be the best idea. There are aerial wires up along most of the roads though.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
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If they have Hydro (non-locally generated) why cant they strike a deal with the electric company to hang fiber on the poles?
MaynardKrebs

MaynardKrebs to BliZZardX

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said by BliZZardX:

I don't know if you were trolling or what, the fiber only needs to be buried a few inches deep. It's not like they have to install a gas pipeline or anything. You don't need the diesel fueled heavy equipment unless you're cutting through kilometers of concrete. The whole route could be manually trenched to the side of existing roads.

There is a shitload of exposed granite up there.
Some roads are just gravel dumped in dips between exposed granite.
So trenching may not be an option.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

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This not about making or losing money, l cost a telco very little in the grand scheme of things to provide for the area.

It's about raw corporate greed, instead of rolling out FTTN to our Northern Territories, they put up cell towers and charge through the nose for usage. Not to mention it's money they took from us and banked the interest over the years.

Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC

Guspaz

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said by elwoodblues:

This not about making or losing money, l cost a telco very little in the grand scheme of things to provide for the area.

Since this is an obviously ridiculous statement, you're going to have to back up how it would cost them very little.
said by elwoodblues:

It's about raw corporate greed, instead of rolling out FTTN to our Northern Territories, they put up cell towers and charge through the nose for usage. Not to mention it's money they took from us and banked the interest over the years.

Repeat after me: Bell is not a charity. Bell is not a charity. Bell is not a charity. They are a business, and even the least greedy business in the world shouldn't be expected to throw money into losing businesses that will provide them with no benefit.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues

Premium Member

said by Guspaz:

said by elwoodblues:

This not about making or losing money, l cost a telco very little in the grand scheme of things to provide for the area.

Since this is an obviously ridiculous statement, you're going to have to back up how it would cost them very little.

Obviously I don't have the numbers,but it's a common thread, there is a huge swat of people in SW Ontario that only have access to slow DSL speeds, or getting gouged by Cogeco, despite having the numbers to do a build out.

My sister lives in a new subdivison in Elora, yet she can only get Cogeco cable (now that Start has shown up for TPIA it's a different story) and 6mb DSL. Both with their LOW LOW Caps.

You would think that they would have built out Fibre from Guelph into towns like Elora or Fergus to service what is essentially becoming a bedroom community for Guelph/Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge.

said by elwoodblues:

It's about raw corporate greed, instead of rolling out FTTN to our Northern Territories, they put up cell towers and charge through the nose for usage. Not to mention it's money they took from us and banked the interest over the years.

Repeat after me: Bell is not a charity. Bell is not a charity. Bell is not a charity. They are a business, and even the least greedy business in the world shouldn't be expected to throw money into losing businesses that will provide them with no benefit.

Bell is not a charity, no arguments from me, but since successive government have deregulated services(via the CRTC) , unless it's a large metropolitan area, there seems to be very little interest in expanding their services and as a consequence, we the people get it up the poop shoot.

Guspaz
Guspaz
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Montreal, QC

Guspaz

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said by elwoodblues:

Obviously I don't have the numbers,but it's a common thread, there is a huge swat of people in SW Ontario that only have access to slow DSL speeds, or getting gouged by Cogeco, despite having the numbers to do a build out.

My sister lives in a new subdivison in Elora, yet she can only get Cogeco cable (now that Start has shown up for TPIA it's a different story) and 6mb DSL. Both with their LOW LOW Caps.

You would think that they would have built out Fibre from Guelph into towns like Elora or Fergus to service what is essentially becoming a bedroom community for Guelph/Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge.

Building an entire broadband infrastructure in a city that lacks it isn't cheap. If it were, other companies would have done it already. In the areas where it's a borderline case (can be profitable, but not much), independents have probably already done so. Running fibre to a town that doesn't have it isn't cheap, then wiring up the whole city (even a small one) isn't cheap, all the in-city fibre, refurbishing ancient copper, buying all those DSLAMs and remotes, all the marketing and billing changes required, etc.
said by elwoodblues:

Bell is not a charity, no arguments from me, but since successive government have deregulated services(via the CRTC) , unless it's a large metropolitan area, there seems to be very little interest in expanding their services and as a consequence, we the people get it up the poop shoot.

You're describing the problem, then, as an apathetic government, not a greedy telecom provider. The basic gist of it is this:

Government: Please serve this small remote town!
Bell: We'd like to, but we'd lose money. If you'd like to subsidize it, no problem.
Government: We don't want to spend money on it.
Bell: OK, then, there's not much we can do, it's not good business sense to intentionally run a money-losing business.
People: WTF, where's our broadband?

pnjunction
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Toronto, ON

pnjunction

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I think part of it is the rates too. People would expect that if they did get service there they'd pay the same rates as less isolated areas. For the most part telcos do keep the rates the same probably for simplicity and because of the outrage differing rates would cause.

Well people in Toronto pay way more for housing and car insurance, why shouldn't people who cost more to serve pay more for broadband? I can already hear the whinging and outrage if Bell did show up in those remote areas offering service at 2x the price...

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy

Premium Member

said by pnjunction:

I think part of it is the rates too. People would expect that if they did get service there they'd pay the same rates as less isolated areas. For the most part telcos do keep the rates the same probably for simplicity and because of the outrage differing rates would cause.

Well people in Toronto pay way more for housing and car insurance, why shouldn't people who cost more to serve pay more for broadband? I can already hear the whinging and outrage if Bell did show up in those remote areas offering service at 2x the price...

And you pay way less for food and gasoline.....so....cue the tradeoff, also to those outside of Toronto, they believe Northern Ontario I think starts at the Cookstown Outlet Mall, perhaps anything North of Highway 7 even? *gasp*...

This is Cottage Country were talking about here....or just east of there...definitely NOT Northern Ontario as....Sudbury is pretty wired and last time I checked were in the real Northern Ontario...with the snow and the cold temperatures and things of that nature.

In regards to internet, isn't there a fixed WISP in the area? I would think there should be someone...come up with a fixed wireless link, put up a tower, place a couple of radios up there, poof...problem solved...

pnjunction
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Toronto, ON

pnjunction

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I grew up in North Bay so you can cut the crap with me about where Northern Ontario starts.

It's not so much how far north as how many people there are. North Bay is decently wired as well.

You're just re-enforcing my point. Prices for things are different so why not with broadband.

Actually gas seems to be not much different between North Bay and Toronto. What's interesting is that there is almost like a bowl shape in between. The cheapest prices are in the middle of nowhere between Orillia and Hunstville IIRC.
whymax
join:2011-01-31
canada

whymax to Guspaz

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Check out Wightman telecom it started over a hundred years ago by a farmer who wanted phone lines in his area and Bell refused so he started putting up polls and his own lines. Now over a 100 years later this company is providing towns form 1500 to 6000 with FTTH cheap, free installation, and top of the line OLT boxes their a great company. I lived just out of town and never had cable or DSL then when they put in their own fiber they asked me if I wanted it for $125 a month and that was 3 years ago and the price hasnt gone up that includes no cap internet, anytime long distance and television package with all the same channels I got from Bell TV for $105 a month.

It's a great deal and a great company i'm glad not every company has the mind set of Bell and you.I have better internet in my town of 4000 then ppl get in Toronto and Montreal. Their putting up LTE for mobile and TD-LTE for fixed wireless customers that all feed back to their Fiber network so even ppl on their fixed wireless service will get faster no cap and more reliable service then any Bell Fibe Customer will get in Toronto and Montreal.