Topic 'Re: Analog Voice Gateways' in forum 'Photos of Broadband gear' - dslreports.com

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:24:28 EDT

sk1939 posted :

said by BiggA:

There actually is.

On paper like cramer said, just not usually in practice.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:52:33 EDT

BiggA posted : There actually is.

I'm not comparing cabinet and bunker sites, just saying that Verizon has more backup than anyone else.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:01:51 EDT

AMD Phreak posted : Cabinet based sites can be batteried and genset powered too.

But if you are building a cabinet-only site chances are you are a cheap ass, not willing to drop in an LP or diesel fed genset.

So therefore we go back to your statement. :D
--
"Saying something in another language that you don't think the other person understands is just saying that you're a pussy and are too afraid to say it in English." --Harddrive

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:53:15 EDT

cramer posted : On paper, yes. Telco's are well known for cutting corners and just paying the fines later. (also, there's only so much protected capacity for 911; it can still be swamped.)

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:02:31 EDT

sk1939 posted : There should be, but not on mobile communications.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:30:37 EDT

BiggA posted : Isn't there priority access for government, aid, and emergency workers?

I am just referencing general, non-emergency power outages. Verizon is rock solid, AT&T goes on the fritz within a few minutes.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:20:02 EDT

sk1939 posted :

said by BiggA:

I like my AT&T, but I'll admit, it's Verizon who is always up no matter what happens. They voluntarily have 8 hours of battery backup plus many hours of diesel fuel at every cell site that it's possible. Verizon basically never goes down during power disruptions. I wish AT&T would take a cue and do the same, or out-do Verizon.

Verizon goes out just as often as AT&T does during an emergency. It's not the power that's the issue, it's the amount of traffic. There's a reason that during 9/11, emergency communications ground to a halt, and that during Katrina, the Louisiana government used land-lines and Sat Phones.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:47:58 EDT

BiggA posted : I like my AT&T, but I'll admit, it's Verizon who is always up no matter what happens. They voluntarily have 8 hours of battery backup plus many hours of diesel fuel at every cell site that it's possible. Verizon basically never goes down during power disruptions. I wish AT&T would take a cue and do the same, or out-do Verizon.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:40:32 EDT

Edrick posted : I'm loving this spotty cell service and complete areas without cell service because of the blackout. Even better is yesterday when all those college kids were using their cell service to call people over loading the network. A bunch of the city is still without power or traffic lights. Temp power feeders all over.

Our good ol analog / hard wired systems still work pisser along with our network infrastructure on backup.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:23:26 EDT

BiggA posted : I could tell them where I am. By building name. Same as by landline.

The bigger cell sites are diesel backed-up. We have two cell sites, the bigger and taller one is definitely diesel backed up. Most of the sites in CT are diesel backed up, for AT&T and Verizon. T-Mobile and Sprint don't seem to care, and they don't build shelters for the gear, just little outdoor cabinets.

I'm pretty sure the cell carriers put a lot of effort into keeping their networks running. Well, AT&T and Verizon that is.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:49:08 EDT

Edrick posted : I'm throwing in the towel.

Anyways it's a great setup you did there, hope to see more in the future!

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:05:31 EDT

TheMG posted :

said by BiggA:

Cell phones are last to go, as they have some of their own backup power.

Many cell sites only have battery backup, no generator. After a few hours, they go dead.

In fact, I'd be ready to bet that most cell sites in an urban area do not have generators. I've seen generators installed mostly in remote areas where prolonged power outages are more likely.

Oh, and there's also the fact that landlines are considered an essential utility. Cell phones on the other hand, are not. In a big emergency or natural disaster, priority will likely be given to getting the landlines back up and running, before getting cell sites back up.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:44:33 EDT

alphapointe posted :

said by BiggA:

Cell phones are last to go, as they have some of their own backup power. Anything wire based is really hit or miss.

WOW! You obviously don't work in the real world. Have you even seen an "emergency"? It doesn't take long to overload and crash a cell site. I'll take wireline over radio any day of the week, and I'm a ham radio operator. It takes a LOT to crash a properly maintained POTS system. At the hospital where I work, we've lost the PRI's for our PBX exactly once in the 10 years I've worked there, and that was for about 20 minutes... the cellular sites that serve the hospital crash or are overloaded on a regular basis. I'd wager most (crybaby Iphone loving) college students don't even know HOW to use a POTS phone...

And this topic has gotten so far off topic... I, for one, would love to see the telco side of this gear (which is quite sexy, I might add... I want one of those weatherproof cabinets!)
--
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"When the hammer drops, the bullshit stops"

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:37:46 EDT

TheMG posted :

said by BiggA:

I have no clue what any of the campus numbers are. If there's a real emergency, we have 911, and that would get routed back to our police. If not, I can google any number that I would ever need in under 30 seconds, and click on it on my iPhone.

You call 911 directly, they have to figure out where on campus you are located, which might not always be so obvious.

If you use the landline phone and call security, they will usually be able to provide assistance until the emergency services arrive, as well as guide the emergency services to the location of the incident.

So which is better?

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:33:54 EDT

BiggA posted : That's stupid, because you can just google all the numbers, or have students in the class google them. The numbers for the computer people are on the desktop background I think. I've seen professors call them a few times, always on personal cell phones.

Cell phone repeaters are needed for normal cellular use, not just emergencies.

I have no clue what any of the campus numbers are. If there's a real emergency, we have 911, and that would get routed back to our police. If not, I can google any number that I would ever need in under 30 seconds, and click on it on my iPhone.

Cell phones are last to go, as they have some of their own backup power. Anything wire based is really hit or miss.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:59:42 EDT

sk1939 posted : Universities require staff members to memorize important numbers for things like Plant Ops and Security, it's part of annual Prof. Development training. Additionally, many of these numbers are listed in the speed dial of the POTS phones.

POTS lines in a well maintained and professional setting will always work. Cellphones are spotty at best, even the iPhone. Installing cell phone repeaters is a costly, and frankly ridiculous proposal since cellphone service is the first to go in an emergency, and rather than dialing an extension (4154), you have to dial a whole number (1-815-518-4154).

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:21:00 EDT

DarkLogix posted : I'd go with over wire the place for easy expantion

then put phones in all the classrooms as yes if the place has a safty dept then it'll come up if they're worth hiring.

I'd also add wireless AP's and have some wifi cisco phones available

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:13:28 EDT

Edrick posted :

said by BiggA:

kc8jwt, That's absolutely true. Running more cable is always better. That doesn't mean that you need to actually activate it all right off the bat.

No one wants POTS lines that no one uses. Safety? In higher ed, no one even realized the phones are there, or knows if they work or not. Which am I going to use in an emergency? Some wall phone that might not work and no one has used in years, or an AT&T or Verizon smartphone that is a known quantity? I'm picking up my iPhone, thank you very much. I know the call will go through, unlike some crumbly POTS system. Plus, if there are more than a couple of people in a room, there's the built in redundancy of having two carriers, in case one just happened to be suffering an outage that day. That, and if the electricity goes out, who knows what's working and what's not, it's very random as to what's on generators or batteries, but you know AT&T and Verizon have generators that are going to keep things juiced up.

Without looking what is your campus safety phone number? I've never had an issue with a wired phone system inside a building working or not. Anywho this discussion seems to be going in a circle, everyones got their own opinion I'm just saying when a client asks you to install a system they're going to look at you funny when you go. Shit man what you taking about use that cell phone you don't need no stinkin phone system.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
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Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:53:46 EDT

BiggA posted : kc8jwt, That's absolutely true. Running more cable is always better. That doesn't mean that you need to actually activate it all right off the bat.

No one wants POTS lines that no one uses. Safety? In higher ed, no one even realized the phones are there, or knows if they work or not. Which am I going to use in an emergency? Some wall phone that might not work and no one has used in years, or an AT&T or Verizon smartphone that is a known quantity? I'm picking up my iPhone, thank you very much. I know the call will go through, unlike some crumbly POTS system. Plus, if there are more than a couple of people in a room, there's the built in redundancy of having two carriers, in case one just happened to be suffering an outage that day. That, and if the electricity goes out, who knows what's working and what's not, it's very random as to what's on generators or batteries, but you know AT&T and Verizon have generators that are going to keep things juiced up.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:24:22 EDT

kc8jwt posted : It makes sense to run the cable for everything when your running the cable. It's pain all the way around when you have to go back in and run new cable later. It's cheaper to run all of the cable at once than to run it later.

We're finding that out now as we had network drops out of spec when AT&T wired our building 12 years ago. I had to have fiber run and re-deploy a switch to take care of these issues. Just finished lighting it up yesterday.

Truthfully, I would much rather have a phone in the room. It's a safety issue more than anything. And with VoIP some of the endpoints can be moved from room to room and the extension would follow. You can tie the extension to the MAC address to the handset.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:57:13 EDT

Edrick posted :

said by BiggA:

No one uses them. No one wants them. If there's not good cell service, then that's a legitimate issue that needs to be dealt with, either through repeaters or partnering with AT&T and Verizon to come in and install sites to cover deep inside buildings.

Well with an attitude like that I don't know how well you'll do in the industry. Cause lots of people use them and lots of people still want them. This installation posted by the OP is a prime example, if no one used them or wanted them why would the university spend all the money?

Cell service is not a valid replacement, wether it be local, state or government requirements or just the institutions requirement. A cell network goes down, especially during emergencies.

What practical experiences do you have where you can make a statement that no one uses it no one wants it other than your personal experience at your campus?

Just like Antenna you might say who the hell would use antenna for TV, lots of people still do.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
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Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:54:20 EDT

BiggA posted : No one uses them. No one wants them. If there's not good cell service, then that's a legitimate issue that needs to be dealt with, either through repeaters or partnering with AT&T and Verizon to come in and install sites to cover deep inside buildings.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:33:52 EDT

Edrick posted :

said by BiggA:

I'm talking higher ed. K-12 makes sense, as the teachers need to be able to communicate with each other, support staff, and the office.

In higher ed, no one would know the numbers anyways unless they are printed somewhere (just as easy to dial on cell), or they Google them and dial them, which would be on their own smartphone anyways.

It's still far easier to have hardwire, I know plenty of spaces on both campuses where we didn't have cell service or the teacher didn't have a phone, perhaps the computer network was down and they cant get on the intranet. They can pickup and hit 0 be connected to the switchboard.

Alls I'm saying is hardwire is far from dead and will be around for quite sometime.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:08:55 EDT

BiggA posted : I'm talking higher ed. K-12 makes sense, as the teachers need to be able to communicate with each other, support staff, and the office.

In higher ed, no one would know the numbers anyways unless they are printed somewhere (just as easy to dial on cell), or they Google them and dial them, which would be on their own smartphone anyways.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:33:43 EDT

kc8jwt posted : Edrick is right. I work in a public school and we have a copper plant for phone and our network plants.

Our phone system is a traditional PBX with a VoIP card to call other districts in our consortium. In each classroom we are required to maintain a phone jack, two network drops, and a CATV jack. If we don't maintain them, we can not get money from a state grant designed to maintain them.

The problem we have with it is that AT&T put the jacks in illogical locations such as the back of the room when the teacher's desk is at the front of the room.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:42:19 EDT

Edrick posted : I'm guessing you're still in college? I myself only just recently graduated two years ago. However plenty of times in real world situations campuses, companies, government etc... require things to be secured, segmented, installed and maintained even if you don't view them as needed. From the world experience I've had so far what sk1939 has said is completely accurate.

Also an example public schools are required to have some type of hardwire communication in the classroom for the teachers to call to the office. I've seen the hardwired phones used many many times in the two universities I've attended to contact plant staff, call for an emergency or other on campus calls. Why have the teacher be required to save 20 phone numbers into their cell phone when they can just use the phone system in the school and call a local extension.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Tue, 24 Jan 2012 13:44:35 EDT

BiggA posted : I've literally seen professors need to make phone calls, they don't even notice they are there. They just pick up their cell phones anyways. If they put that money towards getting better in-building cell coverage, we would all benefit.

Well, maybe not rip out, but just unplug and let it go dead. There's no reason to keep paying every month to support a system that no one uses.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:24:16 EDT

sk1939 posted : The phones are there for emergencies, and for the instructor to call for services such as Plant Ops, Security, A/V, etc.

Dorm phones are a legacy from the time before cell phones. Why would you rip out a perfectly functional system that's in place?

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:54:03 EDT

BiggA posted : Also, why would you have phones in the classrooms? There is no reason to have them, since people are moving in and out of them all the time. My university has the same thing, and it's just a waste of money. As are dorm phone lines, since no one uses them. They should just rip the whole system out.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:53:16 EDT

BiggA posted : OK, maybe VOIP can beat a cell phone, I know Skype has some of the best quality that you'll get on any sort of "phone". Land lines aren't that great, however, as they are analog and have basically no processing power at the end of the line. The best calls that I have are AT&T to AT&T on the cell phone side...

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:59:31 EDT

sk1939 posted : POTS is still more reliable than cell phone service that's for sure. The problem with redundancy I already stated before. I've also previously stated the reason companies keep POTS, mostly due to security and cost.

Higher than land line quality perhaps, but not better than VoIP. Additionally quality is not important in classrooms and for emergencies.

That's subjective and depends on the quality of the line, the distance, the age of the line, the phone handset, and variety of other factors.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:40:50 EDT

BiggA posted : Regular phone systems can bite the dust too, it's not like any of this stuff is super reliable. At least VOIP you could have multiple bandwidth providers as redundancy, as opposed to one phone company where if something blows up.

It's hard to find hard data, but AFAIK, the highest bitrate WCDMA can handle is 23kbps, and WCDMA on the iPhone is higher than landline quality. Admittedly, there's probably a lot of processing going on in the iPhone, but it is able to pull it off.

Not sure if I've ever used a VOIP system, but a good cell phone connection (like AT&T 3G on the iPhone 4S) definitely sounds better than a copper landline. Again, might be processing and massaging, since Apple spends a LOT of time and money on every detail of the thing.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Mon, 23 Jan 2012 23:15:40 EDT

sk1939 posted : Standard VoIP bitrates (like G.711) are at least 40kbps, and many are 50 or 64 plus packet overhead. These are land lines that have to be clear to the other end. There's a reason Verizon ran those "can you hear me now?" ads, since 10kbps is terrible quality considering AM radio is 24kbps.

It will never be acceptable to Fortune 1000 companies, especially when people/clients go to call them. Additionally, if you add that much cell traffic, the towers can be overloaded, not to mention the cost of minutes. It just has to work, because that's what you are paid to do. Yes, you always have a backup but even backups fail.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:04:55 EDT

BiggA posted : Why are the bitrates cranked up so high? Cell phones are something like 10kbps.

"Use your cell phones" should be an OK answer, as they will always work. Of course, you could always have a backup internet connection in case one fails...

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:32:28 EDT

sk1939 posted : It's not a question of bandwidth to the internet for many of these campuses, it has to do with QoS and congestion on the internal network. Additionally, the number of lines many of these enterprises have would take a heavy toll in bandwidth (they number in the hundreds, if not thousands). Remember that the average VoIP call takes about 130kbps of bandwidth (counting overhead), or about 80 lines with 10mbps of bandwidth.

I'll give my two cents having designed a network for a higher education campus.

Due to security issues, and the existence of an original PBX, only some lines were replaced with VoIP, notably offices and labs. Classrooms and Emergency phones remained on the PBX due to technology limitations and cost. Each of the VoIP phones needed a new line to be run for every phone since the existing wiring was based off of Cat 3. The network was designed so that voice traffic was independent of the data network to help with latency, security, and network congestion issues. Likewise, the IP cameras on campus are also on an entirely separate network for security reasons. This particular organization uses PoE for the switches at quite an expense, and runs an Avanya PBX system for VoIP, and a Siemens PBX for POTS.

The POTS infrastructure was not transitioned using FXS devices for the simple reason that the existing PBX was in place, and for emergency situations should the core routers fail, the campus would still be able to reach out through conventional means.

The problem with VoIP is that it requires you to have a stable, consistent, and good quality internet connection with little loss. Should your internet connection fail at any time, then you have serious issues about not being able to contact the outside world. "Use your cell phones" is not an acceptable answer to these enterprises.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:03:19 EDT

BiggA posted : On a 100mbit line, it's unlikely to happen. I don't seem to have issues with my AT&T Microcell when I'm hitting the 'net hard, probably because I have the Microcell god-esque QoS priority in the router.

I do have general upload jamming issues though, so I've cut my torrents, backup, and Google Music down to 1mbps each, but if two or three of them kick on at the same time, or with Dropbox, then everything kind of grinds to a halt on the web browsing side of things.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sun, 15 Jan 2012 19:18:32 EDT

cramer posted : Tell it to the Vonage crowd. Despite the thing being upstream of their router where it can "apply QoS", people still have call quality issues if the line is moderately used. VoIP within a company LAN, you'd think that wouldn't be a problem, but it can, and does, happen.

In the end, there are as any reasons to keep voice and data as isolated from each other as possible, as there are not to. The best way to learn is having them sneak up and bite you on the a**.

(I see it myself with VoIP over IPSec. Back when TWC was 384k up, you best not do anything while using the phone. Now at 1M up, you just have to be careful not to push it while on the phone. Unless you like a stuttering phone.)

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:12:21 EDT

Edrick posted :

said by BiggA:

Or you could just keep them on the same network... Just like home users using VOIP do.

Personally I don't care about them being on the same network, I just prefer them to be on a separate port. Now I work with clients in the Media Production end of things. So they're always using gigabit and specialty setups, worried about segmenting their network, etc...
--
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Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sun, 15 Jan 2012 10:39:34 EDT

BiggA posted : Or you could just keep them on the same network... Just like home users using VOIP do.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sat, 14 Jan 2012 23:20:11 EDT

AMD Phreak posted :

said by BiggA:

Isn't the PoE switch auto-sensing so that they could safely plug the line going to the phone into the back of the PC if the phone went south?

Yes, by 802.3af standards the PSE will detect if the device connected to it is able to be powered via a resistance value.

Power is not shot down the pairs until this is verified, so you can have PD and Non-PD on the switch.

Being in the correct VLAN is a different subject all together, so you'd still have a problem.
--
"Saying something in another language that you don't think the other person understands is just saying that you're a pussy and are too afraid to say it in English." --Harddrive

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Sat, 14 Jan 2012 21:32:30 EDT

Edrick posted :

said by blohner:

I see no reason to separate voice from data in a lot of instances: It simply doubles the risk of network failure: In most cube settings how can someone do a job with a phone if the network is down? I certainly couldn't... (Give me a network only and I am 80% productive. Give me a phone only and I am 0% productive)....

How does it double the risk of failure? If your phone network goes down you at least still have data, if your data network goes down you at least still have phone.
--
Edrick Smith
Independent Film & Broadcast Producer
»edricksmith.com

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:02:03 EDT

blohner posted : I see no reason to separate voice from data in a lot of instances: It simply doubles the risk of network failure: In most cube settings how can someone do a job with a phone if the network is down? I certainly couldn't... (Give me a network only and I am 80% productive. Give me a phone only and I am 0% productive)....
--
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Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 12 Jan 2012 21:30:28 EDT

BiggA posted : Good point. You may as well use the phone hardware you're paying for.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:53:36 EDT

TomS_ posted : Why burn twice as many switch ports when you dont have to?

Switch ports may be cheaper than router ports, but they still have a cost, and youre only trying to save yourself from a situation that *might* be a problem which if it does occur can be rectified easily enough.

:-P

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Thu, 12 Jan 2012 00:12:52 EDT

Edrick posted : Everyone sees different things, all the VoIP setups I've seen have segmented the phones from the data, when it comes to having the availability to do so. Obviously some cases there's existing cable and that's not possible.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:53:35 EDT

battleop posted : I've got an upcoming deployment were I am going to use 5 IAD-2431-24FXS and a dozen IP phones. Even though I have the owner running 2 Cat5e to each room there is absolutely no need for IP phones in each room.

There are some situations where IP phones are not just needed. I suspect that he also has a similar situation.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:50:00 EDT

battleop posted : On the new build outs I always tell my customers to drop to cables per user. Even if they don't terminate the second at least get the cable there for future use.

In a retro deployment 99.999% of the time the customer isn't going to pay for the second drop unless it's absolutely needed. To be honest I don't blame them.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 22:46:22 EDT

battleop posted : Yes.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:30:28 EDT

cramer posted :

in a small office, yes. however, i've done a lot of work the past two years in medical acute care facilities...

You're rebuilding your house four times a year and you want to complain about the cost of the plumbing??? Here, they're creating a massive problem that should never be. I guess their cube walls don't have modular data cabling to match the modular power distribution.

(take a page from Vegas... a raised floor allows for redesigned layouts at substantially reduced costs. For Vegas, it complicates security a wee bit, but that's a small price for not having to jackhammer and re-pour floors to move cable runs.)

[edit: I recall a company making modular cube flooring to carry data and power. Makes this sort of situation a non-problem.]

no. poe switches will be more expensive because they provide additional features that regular switches don't.

Manufacturers charge much more for integrated PoE switches because they know people will pay it. (simple economics.) Yes, there's more in there, but certainly not *thousands* more. If I can buy new midspan modules for hundreds, why is the same technology built into the switch suddenly worth 10x as much? 50% off is still 50% screwed over.

Re: Analog Voice Gateways

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 00:10:47 EDT

cramer posted : It's supposed to be -- modern systems should follow the 802.3xx standards. If you're doing a voice/data vlan setup, and data isn't on a non-tagged vlan, then it doesn't work out so well.

I'm tired of debating best practices, and disaster recovery theories.
The cost of stringing two loops vs. just one, is very cheap insurrance against a great many problems and possible futures. When you're walking into an existing structure, you make do with what's there. If you have a blank canvas, you'd be a fool to paint yourself into such a corner just to save a few dollars upfront.