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SpHeRe31459

join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA
kudos:1
reply to chevelleman

Re: [HD] Get Ready for "Ultra-HDTV"

said by chevelleman:

My point was that even on a smaller screen you can still see the difference. If you have a smaller TV you sit closer to it.

LOL. That's not what you find in the real world. In the real world people are sitting like 7+ feet away from 32" TVs and wondering why their HD channels doesn't look much different from the SD channels, etc.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3

said by SpHeRe31459:

said by chevelleman:

My point was that even on a smaller screen you can still see the difference. If you have a smaller TV you sit closer to it.

LOL. That's not what you find in the real world. In the real world people are sitting like 7+ feet away from 32" TVs and wondering why their HD channels doesn't look much different from the SD channels, etc.

Yeah, except that (usually) the picture on the HD channels fills the whole screen (i.e., in 16:9 widescreen format).

chevelleman

join:2009-05-15
Troutdale, OR
reply to SpHeRe31459

said by SpHeRe31459:

said by chevelleman:

My point was that even on a smaller screen you can still see the difference. If you have a smaller TV you sit closer to it.

LOL. That's not what you find in the real world. In the real world people are sitting like 7+ feet away from 32" TVs and wondering why their HD channels doesn't look much different from the SD channels, etc.

Haha! Very true.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

If you're considering buying a 4K Ultra-HDTV set soon, you may want to wait until ones with an HDMI 2.0 input become available:

HDMI 2.0 explained: Does 4K Ultra HD’s future hinge on a cable standard?
By Ted Kritsonis, Digital Trends - May 28, 2013
»www.digitaltrends.com/home-theat···plained/

The CEA has now published a new DTV Profile for Uncompressed High-Speed Digital Interfaces, CEA-861-F, which applies to HDMI:

CEA Publishes New DTV Interface Standard
Will support 4K and other newer video formats

By George Winslow, Broadcasting & Cable - June 15, 2013
»www.broadcastingcable.com/articl···dard.php


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

As referenced in a DSLR news item today »Are Our Networks Ready for 4K Video? , a recent article on the Variety site about the bandwidth demands of 4K U-HDTV and the use of the new HEVC/H.265 compression standard to reduce it:

4K Ultra-HD TV Faces Bandwidth Challenge to Get Into Homes
New Video Format could be in trouble without the compression technology it needs
By David S. Cohen, Variety - August 1, 2013
»variety.com/2013/digital/news/4k···0570763/


ComcastTech

join:2008-05-31
reply to telcodad

We demoed Ultra-HDTV alongside X2 not long ago. It will happen with everyone as 3D drops out.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

said by novanosis:

$100 per inch, then I need to pay $200 an inch for additional 10 inches. No thanks.

I agree, I think I'd rather save my money to buy an OLED HDTV once the prices of those start dropping down to reasonable levels.

FYI - A CNET article discussing the current issues with OLED HDTVs:

Seven problems with current OLED televisions
Organic light-emitting diode (OLED) is the most exciting display technology since plasma, but there are a few things it needs to overcome before hitting the mainstream.
By Ty Pendlebury, CNET - August 19, 2013
»reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57···visions/


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

There's a DSLR news item today about Netflix talking about being able to stream 4K video at a speed of only about 15 Mbps:

Netflix: 4K Video Will Need At Least 15 Mbps
By Karl Bode, DSLR News - September 23, 2013
»Netflix: 4K Video Will Need At Least 15 Mbps

There was also an article earlier on the MCN site about this:

Netflix CEO: 15-Meg Will Be Good Enough To Stream 4K
Reed Hastings Says Netflix Expects to Launch a 4K Service in 2014

By Jeff Baumgartner, Multichannel News - September 20, 2013
»www.multichannel.com/index.php?q···k/145595



cypherstream
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
kudos:3

Yeah 4k will be the "new HD" where they fit 2 per QAM with 8.8 Mbps to spare for maybe an MPEG4 HD channel.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

Netflix is now testing streaming Ultra-HD content in preparation for a full launch sometime next year:

Netflix Begins 4K Streaming Tests
Netflix Posts Small Batch of 4K Footage Ahead of Anticipated 2014 Launch

By Jeff Baumgartner, Multichannel News - November 3, 2013
»www.multichannel.com/distributio···s/146463



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

An article on the CNET site today:

Four 4K TV facts you must know
After extensive testing of three new 4K TVs, we've learned enough to pass along a few solid bits of information. Here's the least you should know about the next generation of TV resolution.
By David Katzmaier, CNET - November 7, 2013
»reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57···st-know/

quote:
With video on a TV, the difference between 4K/UHD and 1080p/HD resolution is really hard to see.
Many of the words in those reviews were written on a laptop in my lab at a theatrically close seating distance, comparing a 65-inch 1080p and a 65-inch 4K TV. Despite all the extra pixels I knew made up the 4K TV's screen, most of the time I didn't see any difference at all, especially with HD TV shows and Blu-rays. The differences in detail I did see were limited to the very best 4K demo material. Larger TVs or closer seating distances make that difference more visible, as do computer graphics, animation and games, but even then it's not drastic.

Don't expect the kind of improvement afforded by higher computer monitor, tablet, and phone screen resolutions, like Apple's Retina Display. That analogy is largely irrelevant to TVs because you watch TVs from across the room, not inches from your face.



mikedz4

join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV

so 3d (lifelike) tv is on it's way out? how will 4k tv compare to 3d tv or is it more like 720p compared to 1080p?



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3

said by mikedz4:

so 3d (lifelike) tv is on it's way out?

Well, it certainly looks like that, at least until glasses-free 3DTV is perfected. 4K U-HDTV is the new fad with TV manufacturers now.

See this earlier thread: »More on the death of 3DTV

and:

Is 3-D dead?
First ESPN dropped their 3-D sports channel. Now the BBC is putting a hold on 3-D. Is 3-D doomed?
By Robin Harris, ZDNet - July 8, 2013
»www.zdnet.com/is-3-d-dead-7000017767/

chevelleman

join:2009-05-15
Troutdale, OR
reply to telcodad

Note that all 4k TVs made by the big TV manufactures still have 3D support. 4K is just the new tech their pushing.



wolf

@comcast.net
reply to telcodad

I think the term "fad" is really appropriate as applied to 4k. The sets I've seen in stores didn't make me immediately want to buy one (and pay the hefty premium). 4k seems to be the equivalent of audio's THD (total harmonic distortion) spec. It was easy to quantify as a single number & allowed manufacturers to "compare" their products to the competition to prove how much better theirs was. There's a point after which that number no longer matters practically speaking in the real world. If/when 4k stops costing a premium over 1080p (same as today's 1080p sets vs 720p models, there was initially a big marketing hype over 1080p being so much better that you should want to pay extra) & has become a common standard we'll look back at this and laugh. How many audio components have you bought within the past 10 years mainly because of their low THD rating?

4k was also supposed to include other PQ enhancements such as better color reproduction & contrast. Maybe the current 4k development is still too new for manufacturers to have addressed those issues & they solely concentrated on jacking up the resolution, and future sets will deliver better contrast & colors. I think this article on CNET really sums up the current state of 4k very nicely: »reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57···-stupid/

Personally I'm hanging my hopes on OLED much more so than 4k. OLED promises better color reproduction, contrast, less power consumption & motion blur, thinner displays, wider viewing angles etc. And OLED doesn't preclude 4k, Sony showed a 56" prototype OLED 4k set earlier this year (»www.slashgear.com/sony-our-56-in···5296449/).

To me 3D will never be a viable product until it's glasses-free & has a bright picture with no visible artifacts, and solves the "convergence/focus" issue (»www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journa···e-closed). For those who do buy into current 3D technology 4k has the ability to allow each eye to see full 1080 resolution via passive 3D systems instead of only getting 540 lines per eye via the current 1080p res, so that might be an additional short-term selling point.

There's no doubt that 4k technology will continue to be pushed because it's relatively easy to make, can be streamed via use of next-gen compression schemes, can probably be placed onto BD discs using multi-layer technology (»www.avforums.com/threads/is-this···1798370/), lower-res signals can be upscaled to pseudo-4k levels & (most importantly) it gives manufacturers a new gimmick to market which will presumably lead to more sales. OLED has the promise of being a game-changer in terms of PQ, where increased resolution just becomes an add-on to the basic technology that should far out-perform LCD & Plasma.

So to me there's not even a question of dropping extra 1,000's of $ now on a 4k premium for a tv on which I can't really take advantage of the extra resolution anyway, versus enjoying my (2D) 1080p set until OLED is ready.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3

said by wolf :

Personally I'm hanging my hopes on OLED much more so than 4k. OLED promises better color reproduction, contrast, less power consumption & motion blur, thinner displays, wider viewing angles etc. And OLED doesn't preclude 4k, Sony showed a 56" prototype OLED 4k set earlier this year (»www.slashgear.com/sony-our-56-in···5296449/).
:
OLED has the promise of being a game-changer in terms of PQ, where increased resolution just becomes an add-on to the basic technology that should far out-perform LCD & Plasma.

Yes, I agree, as I posted before: »Re: [HD] Get Ready for "Ultra-HDTV"


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

said by mikedz4:

so 3d (lifelike) tv is on it's way out?

Well, it certainly looks like that, at least until glasses-free 3DTV is perfected. 4K U-HDTV is the new fad with TV manufacturers now.

See this earlier thread: »More on the death of 3DTV

and:

Is 3-D dead?
First ESPN dropped their 3-D sports channel. Now the BBC is putting a hold on 3-D. Is 3-D doomed?
By Robin Harris, ZDNet - July 8, 2013
»www.zdnet.com/is-3-d-dead-7000017767/

Even RealD is now saying they're seeing a drop in interest in 3D:

3-D Firm Shifts Focus From Movies
By Erich Schwartzel, The Wall Street Journal - November 12, 2013
»online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1···88692038
quote:
RealD Inc. told investors it will bring to market 2-D and 3-D consumer electronics in 2014 as it tries to mitigate continued losses due to falling 3-D ticket sales and market saturation in North America.

Speaking Tuesday on an earnings conference call, RealD executives withheld most details of the electronics, saying only that they would most likely be with mobile and tablet applications. Some of the electronics will be announced and others will come to market in 2014.

RealD Chief Executive Officer Michael V. Lewis said the company was focusing on consumer-electronic products that offer revenue possibilities "beyond a 3-D cinema platform." Investors shouldn't expect a product announcement at the Consumer Electronics Show in January, he said.
:
In a sign of consumers' growing disinterest with 3-D screenings, RealD said the estimated world-wide box office from RealD-enabled screens was down even as the number of 3-D films released went up.


wolf

@74.121.100.x

Take that 4k, 8k is about to be unleashed in Japan: »filmmakermagazine.com/77202-intr···rontier/. Even more reason to pass on 4k in the short-term, unless of course it starts: a) being offered at the same price point as 1080 (not yet), b) everything else is equal (unlikely, I believe the 4k sets are bigger/heavier & draw more power), and c) you're ready for a new tv anyway because your current set is dying.

Sounds like NHK doesn't foresee driving the resolution technology beyond 8k but instead working next on improving 3D (holographic images?). A lot of this is also geared towards theater presentations, in other words images projected onto giant screens that would be totally impractical for home use (unless you're planning on projecting a 20' image on the side of your 3-story house for the whole neighborhood to enjoy). Let the resolution games begin...



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

Netflix is now testing streaming Ultra-HD content in preparation for a full launch sometime next year:

Netflix Begins 4K Streaming Tests
Netflix Posts Small Batch of 4K Footage Ahead of Anticipated 2014 Launch

By Jeff Baumgartner, Multichannel News - November 3, 2013
»www.multichannel.com/distributio···s/146463

YouTube is also preparing for 4K U-HD:

YouTube ‘ready for 4k’
Advanced Television - November 20, 2013
»advanced-television.com/2013/11/···-for-4k/


mikedz4

join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
reply to telcodad

tiger direct has a 4ktv for $500

»www.tigerdirect.com/applications···874-3905

Seiki 39" Class LED 4K Ultra HDTV - 2160p, 3840 x 2160, 16:9, 120Hz, 5000:1 Dynamic, 6.5ms, 3x HDMI, VGA, USB (SE39UY04)

List Price:$699.99
Instant Savings:- $150.00 (21%)
Today's Price:$549.99
Coupon: - $56.00
Final Price: $493.99 After Coupon



DrDrew
So that others may surf.
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:12

Click for full size
How long until Weather Channel Local on 8's is available in 4K?

BTW, 39" 4K??? You'll to sit so close you can touch it to see the difference from 1080p.... 4' or less.
»carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/
--
Start with what you can do, solutions will follow...

SpHeRe31459

join:2002-10-09
Sacramento, CA
kudos:1

said by DrDrew:

BTW, 39" 4K??? You'll to sit so close you can touch it to see the difference from 1080p.... 4' or less.

What's more the Seiki is a big pile of junk, it's the kind of cheapo Chinese TV that you'd get for like $150 on Black Friday if it were just a 1080p model.


wolf

@74.121.100.x

Some news about 4k pricing that's headed in the right direction (down naturally) & not just for that Seiki brand that almost no one has heard of, although still has a ways to go: »www.nbcnews.com/technology/ultra···11624104

One other factor that would make me leary of jumping into the 4k pool right now is HDMI 2.0. This new standard was recently adopted & specifies up to 18Gbps (3 Gbps/channel x 3 channels) total throughput to allow for up 60fps 4k video (HDMI 1.4 only gets you up to 24fps with 4k), up to 32 audio channels & full 4k 3D (at 30fps). Don't think that full 18Gbps can be applied to a single feed but apparently the 6Gbps/channel is enough bandwidth to support the above features for each feed (and you could send up to 3 such simultaneous streams via HDMI 2.0).

Some of the early 4k dispays didn't include this (the new standard didn't even exist yet). True to form for HDMI, there seems to be a lot of confusion around whether existing sets without it can be upgraded via firmware or not, and some manufacturers have talked about "upgrade kits" to turn their non-HDMI 2.0 displays into HDMI 2.0 displays. Bottom line, I wouldn't even consider buying any 4k display w/o HDMI 2.0.

Regarding 8k (UHDTV/Super Hi-Vision/4320p/33 million pixels per frame/comparable to IMAX) Japan's NHK transmitted programs in this format via fiber from the UK to Japan 3 years ago & also announced successful over-the-airwaves transmission (at 48 Gbps for 120fps over a distance of 2.6 miles). The impressive thing was their proprietary compression that got this stream down to 500Mbps, which is still 50 times the size of an over-the-air 1080p tv signal but a lot more manageable. And is something that the 802.11ac standard can handle. There was mention a few months back that ESPN was upgrading its transmission facilities in CT to be 8k-capable, basically "future-proofing" it beyond 4k.

Then HEVC (H.265) enters the picture earlier this year with even better compression for potential real-time encoding of 8k at 60 fps. This opens the door to the possibility of near-future over-the-air 8k video transmission, providing that any 8k-capable displays exist to receive & display it.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3

said by wolf :

One other factor that would make me leary of jumping into the 4k pool right now is HDMI 2.0. This new standard was recently adopted & specifies up to 18Gbps (3 Gbps/channel x 3 channels) total throughput to allow for up 60fps 4k video (HDMI 1.4 only gets you up to 24fps with 4k), up to 32 audio channels & full 4k 3D (at 30fps). Don't think that full 18Gbps can be applied to a single feed but apparently the 6Gbps/channel is enough bandwidth to support the above features for each feed (and you could send up to 3 such simultaneous streams via HDMI 2.0).

Some of the early 4k dispays didn't include this (the new standard didn't even exist yet). True to form for HDMI, there seems to be a lot of confusion around whether existing sets without it can be upgraded via firmware or not, and some manufacturers have talked about "upgrade kits" to turn their non-HDMI 2.0 displays into HDMI 2.0 displays. Bottom line, I wouldn't even consider buying any 4k display w/o HDMI 2.0.

Yes, there were these 2 earlier posts of mine in this thread about that issue: »Re: [HD] Get Ready for "Ultra-HDTV"


wolf

@74.121.100.x

OK then strike that & you get full credit...



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3

2 edits

said by wolf :

OK then strike that & you get full credit...

No credit necessary for me my friend, just wanted to point out some articles on HDMI 2.0 that can provide more detail on what you said.


DrDrew
So that others may surf.
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:12
reply to wolf

Yeah... I think current 4k displays without HEVC or HDMI 2.0 hardware are like the early HDTVs with 5:4 CRTs and non-HCDP DVI interfaces. They're strictly for early adopters not particularly concerned with replacing their too soon for prime time displays. Japan seems to be big on launching gear like that.... stuff pre-standard that's obsolete or incompatible with main stream gear released later. Most of the rest of the world hates dealing with that.
--
Start with what you can do, solutions will follow...



wolf

@74.121.100.x
reply to telcodad

I didn't know we were friendly, I don't believe that I know you . But dissemination (even multiple times) of information is a good thing, I don't believe that anything I stated was incorrect. Maybe/hopefully it spurred someone on to seek out more info on the subject & there's plenty of info out on the interweb about HDMI 2.0 (not just what you and I are posting here, I would encourage everyone to do their own research) - much of which won't matter to the average Joe TV customer. Maybe I was somewhat successful in distilling it down to the specific advances as applied to 4k video.

The larger point is that there seems to now be a case starting to build for perhaps skipping over 4k & going straight to 8k, assuming that your current 1080p display remains functional until 8k is ready. That despite what display manufacturers will want you to do, which is to replace your 2k set with a brand new 4k set. To that end they will also place more & more pressure on content providers to produce real 4k content to watch on those brand new 4k tv's (and I may do that on my 75" 4k OLED tv in 3-4 years, and that tv will down-convert those brand new 8k signals to 4k levels because all new tv's will be that smart by then - how's that for wishful thinking?).

To DrDrew, I used to be an audio early adopter & technology definitely needs them in order to advance. If manufacturers take too much of a bath on new technology that doesn't sell then that could stifle any future advances. I'm just not interested in being one for 4k video when there seems to be some pretty good video tech already on the market & something even better (and perhaps "final" in terms of resolution - I know that's a dangerous assumption) is looming in the not-too-distant future. If NHK can actually get 8k tv broadcasting successfully off the ground by 2016 in Japan, which means that they'll also need 8k viewers with 8k tv's, it may not take that much longer before a larger adoption of 8k happens in other markets. Then 4k becomes just another milestone along the road of HD's evolution (and a pretty short one at that).



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3

said by wolf :

I didn't know we were friendly, I don't believe that I know you . But dissemination (even multiple times) of information is a good thing, I don't believe that anything I stated was incorrect. Maybe/hopefully it spurred someone on to seek out more info on the subject & there's plenty of info out on the interweb about HDMI 2.0 (not just what you and I are posting here, I would encourage everyone to do their own research) - much of which won't matter to the average Joe TV customer. Maybe I was somewhat successful in distilling it down to the specific advances as applied to 4k video.

I had no problem with what you had posted, and it was good of you to bring that issue to mind again, as my earlier posts are now several months old and buried back in this thread.

As I said, my intention was to point out some articles on HDMI 2.0 that I had found, for people to read to get more details about this.

OK, so now that we know a little bit more about each other, can we be friends now?


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to DrDrew

Some more progess on the HEVC/H.265 video coding front:

Elemental Muscles Up For 4K
Shows Off ‘Full Frame Rate’ Processing for 4K HEVC Video

By Jeff Baumgartner, Multichannel News - December 10, 2013
»www.multichannel.com/technology/···k/147116

EDIT: Also on the FierceCable site:

Elemental gears for 4K Olympics and Ultra HD programming tiers
By Steve Donohue, FierceCable - December 10, 2013
»www.fiercecable.com/story/elemen···13-12-10