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jabarnut
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reply to Dude111

Re:  

said by Dude111:

...
i love IE6 and 98se and I explained why

IE6 and 98se? Wow! I've never even heard of them.
I'll have to try them for sure!
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Freddy
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reply to Gone Fishing

Re: [IE] Internet Explorer: The Browser You Loved To Hate

All,

According to the below referenced web site (dated Aug., 2010), Internet Explorer (IE) 9 scores 95 out of 100 in the Acid Test 3 for meeting web standards:

»www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/microsof···ber/2296

The article is not too long, and is a good read for those who are interested in this subject. That is, the subject that IE does not comply with web standards.

Freddy



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

3 edits

said by Freddy:

According to the below referenced web site (dated Aug., 2010), Internet Explorer (IE) 9 scores 95 out of 100 in the Acid Test 3 for meeting web standards

Acid3 test are cute. Good for marketing. But of little value to show compliance with current web standards. Acid3, specifically, only tests up through CSS2.1 and nothing with CSS3, HTML5, current javascript (ecmascript) standards, etc. Acid3 is more than 3 years old.

I've shown other links on this board for years, including the two links above, to show the parts of IE9 that do not work at all, but people choose to ignore them. Acid3 is the worst thing to use. Even Ian Hickson, the author of it, says not to use Acid tests to compare browsers (I'm looking for the link).

IE is still the worst browser on the planet, technically, and always will be.


dvd536
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said by howardfine:

IE is still the worst browser on the planet, technically, and always will be.

Its a good moneymaker for AV, AT, AM companies


Nightfall
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reply to Freddy

said by Freddy:

All,

According to the below referenced web site (dated Aug., 2010), Internet Explorer (IE) 9 scores 95 out of 100 in the Acid Test 3 for meeting web standards:

»www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/microsof···ber/2296

The article is not too long, and is a good read for those who are interested in this subject. That is, the subject that IE does not comply with web standards.

Freddy

A very good read Freddy. Thanks for sharing. I prefer Firefox, but you can bet that I will download IE 9 and give it a try.
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darcilicious
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reply to Gone Fishing

Only use IE at work and only for sites that literally don't work with other browsers. WTF is that about? That right there is enough to make NOT use IE whenever possible.



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
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reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

I prefer Firefox, but you can bet that I will download IE 9 and give it a try.

When you give it a try, make sure you try it on the links I gave earlier. Then try those same links in any other browser and report back.


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said by howardfine:

said by Nightfall:

I prefer Firefox, but you can bet that I will download IE 9 and give it a try.

When you give it a try, make sure you try it on the links I gave earlier. Then try those same links in any other browser and report back.

No browser is going to render every website correctly. Sure, we would all love to see it, but so far, it hasn't been a reality.
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howardfine

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said by Nightfall:

No browser is going to render every website correctly. Sure, we would all love to see it, but so far, it hasn't been a reality.

I'm not talking about rendering it correctly. I'm talking being able to render current, standard code at all that EVERY other browser does fine with.


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said by howardfine:

said by Nightfall:

No browser is going to render every website correctly. Sure, we would all love to see it, but so far, it hasn't been a reality.

I'm not talking about rendering it correctly. I'm talking being able to render current, standard code at all that EVERY other browser does fine with.

The issue is that not every site is coded that way. Not trying to be defeatist, but so far, no single browser is able to view every site without an issue.

The issue here is getting all the site code updated to the latest and greatest code.
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howardfine

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said by Nightfall:

so far, no single browser is able to view every site without an issue.


Not exactly right. It depends on...stuff. Generally you can get the modern browsers to work quite well depending on how complicated things get.
quote:
The issue here is getting all the site code updated to the latest and greatest code.

No. The issue is that the latest and greatest code cannot and will not work in IE but will work in any other browser. At least that's the point I'm trying to make.

OZO
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reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

No browser is going to render every website correctly. Sure, we would all love to see it, but so far, it hasn't been a reality.

To help to see where the problem is there is a judge in the town - HTML/CSS verification tools. They were specifically developed for that purpose. If there is a problem with web page - the tool will tell about that. Otherwise the problem is with browser.
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reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

said by Nightfall:

so far, no single browser is able to view every site without an issue.


Not exactly right. It depends on...stuff. Generally you can get the modern browsers to work quite well depending on how complicated things get.
quote:
The issue here is getting all the site code updated to the latest and greatest code.

No. The issue is that the latest and greatest code cannot and will not work in IE but will work in any other browser. At least that's the point I'm trying to make.

You have a link or source to back this claim up?
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howardfine

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said by Nightfall:

You have a link or source to back this claim up?

This is the third time I'm saying this. I supplied two links in my first post. Over the past year I've supplied tens of links. Here's one more for you.


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said by howardfine:

said by Nightfall:

You have a link or source to back this claim up?

This is the third time I'm saying this. I supplied two links in my first post. Over the past year I've supplied tens of links. Here's one more for you.

The problem with the links you are proposing is that they are just independent bloggers. I could produce a few links that would be done by independents that would show the exact opposite. That doesn't prove my point. I would prefer something a bit more concrete. Anything out there like that because I haven't found much doing a google search.

Here is one by Engadget that shows the opposite. »www.engadget.com/2010/11/02/w3c-···e-champ/
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howardfine

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2 edits

said by Nightfall:

Here is one by Engadget that shows the opposite. »www.engadget.com/2010/11/02/w3c-···e-champ/

That's hardly concrete. It parrots Microsoft's statement which is thrown out by the second link I posted and doesn't even show all the things IE can NOT do. I recently deleted one blog where it's also called BS but there's no getting past the failure of IE to render the two sites I show and there's no getting past the list created in the link no matter who wrote it. It's all true, correct and verifiable.

There are newer test sites like this one but it seems no matter what links I supply, people find excuses not to believe them, no matter who they are. All of them are by reputable, well known people in the development community, like Fyrd's (click on Tables and scroll to the bottom for a comparison).

I was going to link to some posts on Stackoverflow, which is a developer's q&a board if you really wanted to get how developers feel about IE but it's rather technical. Suffice to say, no self-respecting web developer uses IE for personal use.


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said by howardfine:

said by Nightfall:

Here is one by Engadget that shows the opposite. »www.engadget.com/2010/11/02/w3c-···e-champ/

That's hardly concrete. It parrots Microsoft's statement which is thrown out by the second link I posted and doesn't even show all the things IE can NOT do. I recently deleted one blog where it's also called BS but there's no getting past the failure of IE to render the two sites I show and there's no getting past the list created in the link no matter who wrote it. It's all true, correct and verifiable.

There are newer test sites like this one but it seems no matter what links I supply, people find excuses not to believe them, no matter who they are. All of them are by reputable, well known people in the development community, like Fyrd's (click on Tables and scroll to the bottom for a comparison).

I was going to link to some posts on Stackoverflow, which is a developer's q&a board if you really wanted to get how developers feel about IE but it's rather technical. Suffice to say, no self-respecting web developer uses IE for personal use.

So, its safe to say that there is no expert committee that has done a study on these things or some kind of board that oversees these standards that has done tests on them.

You are right, I do have doubts when I read some of the blogs you have posted. At the same time, it doesn't matter what these people say when not every coder is using these standards that are available today. With so many people using different standards, what is the right way? Wouldn't it be the best browser that can display all the sites across the board with the best security?

Firefox is my favorite, so I am not some IE fanboy. At the same time though, to this day I have yet to find a browser that works on every site. These "standards" that these experts are talking about don't mean crap to 99% of the people out there. Especially when the people coding the sites aren't following the standards.

Personally, I believe there should be standards, but browsers should be flexible and secure.
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howardfine

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said by Nightfall:

You are right, I do have doubts when I read some of the blogs you have posted.


I wasn't going to say it, cause it's another excuse I hear, but two of the several links I posted are by people from Mozilla and Google. While people will claim bias, that doesn't change what works and doesn't work in IE. Most of my links state facts. While they may contain commentary, the facts are the facts.
quote:
it doesn't matter what these people say when not every coder is using these standards that are available today. With so many people using different standards, what is the right way?

Other than the W3C, what standards do you speak of? I know of no other except fo ECMA for javascript.
quote:
Wouldn't it be the best browser that can display all the sites across the board with the best security?
No. We code to standards, not browsers. That's why so many web sites only work in IE. They coded to a non-standard browser and now they're in trouble. I don't know any professional developer that would code to a browser.
quote:
At the same time though, to this day I have yet to find a browser that works on every site.
I found my first site in years that works better in IE. I was shocked. But I'm sure we visit different kinds of web sites. I never see IE-only sites anymore myself though I think my wife, who is my company's bookkeeper, used to have problems with our bank's site.
quote:
These "standards" that these experts are talking about don't mean crap to 99% of the people out there. Especially when the people coding the sites aren't following the standards.

That's old school thinking. I'm pretty sure most people have learned to use the standards. I did see someone say something about not using standards a few months ago but that was just some kid. My response to that sort of statement was always, "If you're not following the W3C, what standard are you following?", to which I never get a reply.


Dude111
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reply to Gone Fishing

 

quote:
No browser is going to render every website correctly. Sure, we would all love to see it, but so far, it hasn't been a reality.
No i reckon the size of the browser would be HUGE if it could render everything from HTML5 down!!


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reply to howardfine

Re: [IE] Internet Explorer: The Browser You Loved To Hate

quote:
That's old school thinking. I'm pretty sure most people have learned to use the standards. I did see someone say something about not using standards a few months ago but that was just some kid. My response to that sort of statement was always, "If you're not following the W3C, what standard are you following?", to which I never get a reply.

Old school thinking or not, its true. I think the inherent problem is just that. Not everyone is following W3C standards. The simple fact of the matter is that as long as there are other ways to do things, people are going to do them. I agree with you 100% that if W3C was the standard and everyone followed those standards, then we would be in a better place. This conversation wouldn't even be coming up. That just isn't the case.

Now, it certainly would be nice to see an official report from W3C testing the browsers. The initial report from W3C on IE9 was great. Then you have some "experts" in the community that go against that claim. I have read some publications that even question if Microsoft bought their way into a positive review. While I understand what the experts are saying, I am going to wait until W3C comes out with a new testing standard and retests the browsers. I have been around long enough to know that biased reporting does exist.

Until then, I am going to do what I have been doing for the last 10+ years. I am going to use multiple browsers, with my main one being Firefox right now and IE9 as my secondary.
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howardfine

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said by Nightfall:


Old school thinking or not, its true.

Not in the circles I hang out in.
quote:
I think the inherent problem is just that. Not everyone is following W3C standards.
If they're not following the W3C, what are they following? After all, all browser vendors are members of the W3C and sign off on all those standards, and follow the W3C standard themselves. So what other standard is there?
quote:
Now, it certainly would be nice to see an official report from W3C testing the browsers. The initial report from W3C on IE9 was great.
To clarify, that was a report on Microsoft's contributed standards from their own labs for IE9. They are incomplete in their testing, don't test everything, and do not test half of the standard. iow, they're meaningless.
quote:
I am going to wait until W3C comes out with a new testing standard and retests the browsers.
The W3C does no such thing, never has, and never will. They are in the business of creating standards, not verifying browsers. The test suite you mention doesn't do what you think it does.
quote:
Until then, I am going to do what I have been doing for the last 10+ years. I am going to use multiple browsers, with my main one being Firefox right now and IE9 as my secondary.

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything. Do not use IE9. A little puppy is murdered every time you do. Pick a modern browser instead, like, ANYTHING else.

It appears that you, too, are ignoring my links and want to find excuses to ignore them. Fyrd and Rouget are known experts in the field. Personally, I've been developing for the web for eight years and have a company of 28 people and was once recruited to work on Firefox by Mozilla. I know of NO web developer in all these years that would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything.

Some technical web sites that, like ArsTechnica, publish their users browser usage based on their server logs. IE has 15% usage. The developer blogs I visit have less than that. So the people who know best how the web works do not use IE.

But no one wants to hear that. They're always looking for someone else to tell them what to do.


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said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.


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said by mozerd:

said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.

I have to agree here.
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reply to howardfine

I have no idea what standards coders are following. If every coder was following the W3C standards, then one browser would work across the board. That just isn't the case though.

I find it funny that you are getting all offended that I am "ignoring your links" when I have done no such thing. I read them, and they are a bunch of angry independent bloggers who are bitching about IE9. I suppose if I link a bunch of bloggers who say the W3C standards suck ass, then that gives me a pass to say what I want about W3C sucking? It doesn't.

The only thing you are coming off as is biased against IE9. You remind me of a Linux expert who believes that Linux is the only way to go and anything Microsoft sucks. Things you say such as "no web developer in all these years would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything." I can link many web developers would would recommend IE. Then you post usage and try to justify that claim. Does that mean people who use Opera and Safari are just as screwed because their usage is under 5%?

IMHO, we need less "experts" such as yourself spouting opinionated bullshit and saying everyone who uses IE is wrong. IE, like any browser, is a tool. There are many tools that are at our disposal. With no browser able to render every site, it becomes important these days to have multiple browsers. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and quite frankly, your biased opinions are just that......bullshit.
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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
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reply to mozerd

said by mozerd:

said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.

If I'm wrong, show me. You can't. It's impossible. You will fail.

In my case, I supply facts and links. You just blurt out a line of an insult.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
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reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

I have no idea what standards coders are following.


Then don't you think you shouldn't be commenting on this? If you don't know that HTML/CSS and almost all the other stuff related to browsers is set by the W3C, and there is no other standard, how can you make some of the comments you've made?
quote:
If every coder was following the W3C standards, then one browser would work across the board. That just isn't the case though.
You're confusing things. By "coder", I assume you mean people like me who create web sites and applications. If I enter a 'text-shadow' property, and it doesn't work in IE because IE doesn't support it, how does that mean either I nor Microsoft doesn't follow the W3C standard?

I mentioned it before and perhaps you didn't catch it but ALL browser vendors are members of the W3C and sign off on all the standards from them. There is no other standard they follow and there is no other version of HTML or CSS, etc.
quote:
I find it funny that you are getting all offended that I am "ignoring your links" when I have done no such thing. I read them, and they are a bunch of angry independent bloggers who are bitching about IE9. I suppose if I link a bunch of bloggers who say the W3C standards suck ass, then that gives me a pass to say what I want about W3C sucking? It doesn't.
That's because you don't know how the web works. You don't know who these people are. If some famous NASCAR driver complained about Fords, would you pay more attention to him than some guy down the street? Especially if you know nothing about cars?
quote:
The only thing you are coming off as is biased against IE9.
And now you're giving me the typical response. In the face of evidence from experts, the world is flat and men landing on the moon never happened and nothing is going to change your mind.

And the rest of your post is just insulting drivel. When you don't know what you're talking about, and you're unwilling to learn, then there's nothing more to say and nothing I can teach you.


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If a NASCAR driver complained about Ford, I would take his opinion and tuck it away. In the end, its really his opinion. With millions of people driving a Ford and enjoying it, who is to say he is more right?

The car, like a browser, is a tool. There are various experts out there that say "X browser" is the best. Ok, well, so far I have become partial to Firefox. Does that mean that IE, Opera, Safari, and Chrome are crap? No.

Sorry, but I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I can point out your bias and off the wall comments on how "if you use IE9, then you gain nothing and lose everything" is really bullshit. The independent bloggers you are linking are just opinionated articles and really don't have much in terms of hard facts. In the end though, its what you believe. There are people out there that treat some technology like a religion. Its quite obvious to see where your bias is at.

I know you are going to defend your bias to the death, but in the end, IE is a solid browser and has its place in the industry.
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reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

said by mozerd:

said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.

If I'm wrong, show me. You can't. It's impossible. You will fail.

In my case, I supply facts and links. You just blurt out a line of an insult.

You have supplied zero facts that backup the claim that "IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything." If anyone was blurting out a line, it was you.
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howardfine

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reply to Nightfall

Your statements show you know nothing about the technical aspects of the web. Like I said, when you know nothing about a subject, you shouldn't be commenting on it.



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said by howardfine:

Your statements show you know nothing about the technical aspects of the web. Like I said, when you know nothing about a subject, you shouldn't be commenting on it.

I know enough to call out your biased and bullshit statements you are trying to pawn off as fact.
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