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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Nightfall

Re: [IE] Internet Explorer: The Browser You Loved To Hate

said by Nightfall:


Old school thinking or not, its true.

Not in the circles I hang out in.
quote:
I think the inherent problem is just that. Not everyone is following W3C standards.
If they're not following the W3C, what are they following? After all, all browser vendors are members of the W3C and sign off on all those standards, and follow the W3C standard themselves. So what other standard is there?
quote:
Now, it certainly would be nice to see an official report from W3C testing the browsers. The initial report from W3C on IE9 was great.
To clarify, that was a report on Microsoft's contributed standards from their own labs for IE9. They are incomplete in their testing, don't test everything, and do not test half of the standard. iow, they're meaningless.
quote:
I am going to wait until W3C comes out with a new testing standard and retests the browsers.
The W3C does no such thing, never has, and never will. They are in the business of creating standards, not verifying browsers. The test suite you mention doesn't do what you think it does.
quote:
Until then, I am going to do what I have been doing for the last 10+ years. I am going to use multiple browsers, with my main one being Firefox right now and IE9 as my secondary.

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything. Do not use IE9. A little puppy is murdered every time you do. Pick a modern browser instead, like, ANYTHING else.

It appears that you, too, are ignoring my links and want to find excuses to ignore them. Fyrd and Rouget are known experts in the field. Personally, I've been developing for the web for eight years and have a company of 28 people and was once recruited to work on Firefox by Mozilla. I know of NO web developer in all these years that would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything.

Some technical web sites that, like ArsTechnica, publish their users browser usage based on their server logs. IE has 15% usage. The developer blogs I visit have less than that. So the people who know best how the web works do not use IE.

But no one wants to hear that. They're always looking for someone else to tell them what to do.


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said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.


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said by mozerd:

said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.

I have to agree here.
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reply to howardfine

I have no idea what standards coders are following. If every coder was following the W3C standards, then one browser would work across the board. That just isn't the case though.

I find it funny that you are getting all offended that I am "ignoring your links" when I have done no such thing. I read them, and they are a bunch of angry independent bloggers who are bitching about IE9. I suppose if I link a bunch of bloggers who say the W3C standards suck ass, then that gives me a pass to say what I want about W3C sucking? It doesn't.

The only thing you are coming off as is biased against IE9. You remind me of a Linux expert who believes that Linux is the only way to go and anything Microsoft sucks. Things you say such as "no web developer in all these years would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything." I can link many web developers would would recommend IE. Then you post usage and try to justify that claim. Does that mean people who use Opera and Safari are just as screwed because their usage is under 5%?

IMHO, we need less "experts" such as yourself spouting opinionated bullshit and saying everyone who uses IE is wrong. IE, like any browser, is a tool. There are many tools that are at our disposal. With no browser able to render every site, it becomes important these days to have multiple browsers. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and quite frankly, your biased opinions are just that......bullshit.
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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to mozerd

said by mozerd:

said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.

If I'm wrong, show me. You can't. It's impossible. You will fail.

In my case, I supply facts and links. You just blurt out a line of an insult.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

I have no idea what standards coders are following.


Then don't you think you shouldn't be commenting on this? If you don't know that HTML/CSS and almost all the other stuff related to browsers is set by the W3C, and there is no other standard, how can you make some of the comments you've made?
quote:
If every coder was following the W3C standards, then one browser would work across the board. That just isn't the case though.
You're confusing things. By "coder", I assume you mean people like me who create web sites and applications. If I enter a 'text-shadow' property, and it doesn't work in IE because IE doesn't support it, how does that mean either I nor Microsoft doesn't follow the W3C standard?

I mentioned it before and perhaps you didn't catch it but ALL browser vendors are members of the W3C and sign off on all the standards from them. There is no other standard they follow and there is no other version of HTML or CSS, etc.
quote:
I find it funny that you are getting all offended that I am "ignoring your links" when I have done no such thing. I read them, and they are a bunch of angry independent bloggers who are bitching about IE9. I suppose if I link a bunch of bloggers who say the W3C standards suck ass, then that gives me a pass to say what I want about W3C sucking? It doesn't.
That's because you don't know how the web works. You don't know who these people are. If some famous NASCAR driver complained about Fords, would you pay more attention to him than some guy down the street? Especially if you know nothing about cars?
quote:
The only thing you are coming off as is biased against IE9.
And now you're giving me the typical response. In the face of evidence from experts, the world is flat and men landing on the moon never happened and nothing is going to change your mind.

And the rest of your post is just insulting drivel. When you don't know what you're talking about, and you're unwilling to learn, then there's nothing more to say and nothing I can teach you.


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If a NASCAR driver complained about Ford, I would take his opinion and tuck it away. In the end, its really his opinion. With millions of people driving a Ford and enjoying it, who is to say he is more right?

The car, like a browser, is a tool. There are various experts out there that say "X browser" is the best. Ok, well, so far I have become partial to Firefox. Does that mean that IE, Opera, Safari, and Chrome are crap? No.

Sorry, but I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I can point out your bias and off the wall comments on how "if you use IE9, then you gain nothing and lose everything" is really bullshit. The independent bloggers you are linking are just opinionated articles and really don't have much in terms of hard facts. In the end though, its what you believe. There are people out there that treat some technology like a religion. Its quite obvious to see where your bias is at.

I know you are going to defend your bias to the death, but in the end, IE is a solid browser and has its place in the industry.
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reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

said by mozerd:

said by howardfine:

IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.

Pure unadulterated baloney... Suggest you grow up.

If I'm wrong, show me. You can't. It's impossible. You will fail.

In my case, I supply facts and links. You just blurt out a line of an insult.

You have supplied zero facts that backup the claim that "IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything." If anyone was blurting out a line, it was you.
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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Nightfall

Your statements show you know nothing about the technical aspects of the web. Like I said, when you know nothing about a subject, you shouldn't be commenting on it.



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said by howardfine:

Your statements show you know nothing about the technical aspects of the web. Like I said, when you know nothing about a subject, you shouldn't be commenting on it.

I know enough to call out your biased and bullshit statements you are trying to pawn off as fact.
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wcda

join:2001-12-06
Macon, GA
reply to Gone Fishing

This might be of interest to the discussion

»www.webmasterworld.com/forum10/5442.htm



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said by wcda:

This might be of interest to the discussion

»www.webmasterworld.com/forum10/5442.htm

This is exactly my point. I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons. This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow. I have found a plethora of articles from experts that state that W3C is a waste of time for various reasons. While I believe a set of standards are good, they are only good if everyone is on board with them. The way the web is structured, this is never going to happen.

Until then, browsers should be tested based on performance, rendering pages, security, and usability. This is a good review on three of the browsers.

»www.techradar.com/news/software/···0-935792
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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

said by Nightfall:

said by wcda:

This might be of interest to the discussion

»www.webmasterworld.com/forum10/5442.htm

This is exactly my point. I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons.
If you're going to refer to that site as a source for comments for "web developers" then you're in trouble. While there are some very competent people there, comments like that (in an 8-year old thread) are only made by amateurs.
quote:
This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow. I have found a plethora of articles from experts that state that W3C is a waste of time for various reasons.

I'm still waiting for you, or anyone, to point to anything anywhere that's an alternative to the W3C. I will repeat what I said before, too. ALL browser vendors are members of the W3C. They write the standards there AND they follow the W3C specification as they create their browser code. If you think there is some other organization or standards they are following, then you're only dreaming and need to wake up.
quote:
This is a good review on three of the browsers.

»www.techradar.com/news/software/···0-935792

It's amazing to me that you ignore my links as being biased, bullshit by Mozilla and Google developers yet you find some random guy on the internet and call his review "good".

OZO
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howardfine See Profile, with all due respect, do you know that on this forum opening HTML tags require symmetrical closing tags?

For example:
[bquote] your cite is here [/bquote]

If you do and if it's not way too technical for you, please follow that simple rule. Otherwise you produce posts (and not just once) that are difficult to read...
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reply to howardfine

The reason why that review is good is that it tests the usability of the browsers across the internet with a variety of tests such as performance, security, and so on. (Please note the W3C testing they did which takes less than a paragraph). You are not linking reviews comparing the browsers. You are linking biased reviews of people who don't like IE9 and are basing that off standards that aren't followed by everyone.

There is no alternative to W3C because there are no standards that everyone follows. As I said before, I know a fair share of web developers that don't follow the W3C for various reasons. Now, in your mind that doesn't make them web developers, but in my mind it still does. They just have other ways to make things work, which is neither good or bad.

Once again, I am not saying that W3C is bad. The idea of standards that everyone adheres to is a good thing, but only if everyone adheres to them. Since not everyone adheres to them, the standards you are using to back a browser (which has already passed prior tests) is crap. Base browsers on usability, performance, security, features, and so on.

Besides, when you make bullshit statements like you have made earlier in this thread, you already show a biased opinion. Please stop trying to justify it, admit it, and move on.
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OZO
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reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons. This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow.

No, this is a set of standards. If some developers don't follow them then the public has to keep and use multiple browsers... I, for one, don't want to go this way and try to open a web page with several web browsers, just to be able to see what that particular developer wanted me to see on it.

I have found a plethora of articles from experts that state that W3C is a waste of time for various reasons. While I believe a set of standards are good, they are only good if everyone is on board with them. The way the web is structured, this is never going to happen.

You can find a plethora of lazy web developers too, who don't respect any standards and naively think, that if the user wants to see his/her page, he has to use specific browser, which that developer happens to have and use. Yeah, right... I'll tell you what'll happen. Instead of installing a bunch of different browsers for folks like you, I'll better open your page in my favorite browser and if it's not rendered properly there, I simply go to another site. How about that? Who wins here?
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reply to OZO

Heh...I noticed that as well. But I guess when you're a web developer, there are far more important things to worry about, than simple HTML tags.
Ok, sorry folks...carry on. And I do mean carry on.
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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

(Please note the W3C testing they did which takes less than a paragraph).


And there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of elements and particulars not being tested.
quote:
You are not linking reviews comparing the browsers. You are linking biased reviews of people who don't like IE9 and are basing that off standards that aren't followed by everyone.

Or are they just telling the truth as it is? What do you want them to say if something is bad? Just look for a silver lining and ignore the rest?
quote:

There is no alternative to W3C because there are no standards that everyone follows. As I said before, I know a fair share of web developers that don't follow the W3C for various reasons.

Again I ask you, what are they following if they're not following the W3C?! You even state there are no other standards so what are they following? After all, even the browser vendors follow the W3C so how can they be doing anything else? I keep asking you that question!
quote:
Besides, when you make bullshit statements like you have made earlier in this thread, you already show a biased opinion. Please stop trying to justify it, admit it, and move on.

Again I say to you, if you can prove me wrong in anything I've shown or said, do it. You can't cause I'm showing the truth and apparently you don't want to believe what's in front of your eyes.

I showed you one testing site and one chart where it shows the technical specs and shows IE is far behind all other browsers in technical compliance yet you call it bullshit, bias, angry developers and you say I showed you nothing. I just don't know what else I can do.


Nightfall
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I have no idea what they are following. As a web developer, you should know what they are doing. Why don't you enlighten me with the reasons why some web developers don't follow W3C standards. Just doing a check out on the web, I could probably find some developers opinions on the matter and post them here. As an "expert" you may know why off the top of your head. Why don't you answer that question.

I have already proven you wrong on things you have said. For instance, when you said, "IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything," that is a bullshit statement. You going to refute that? How about when you said, "no web developer in all these years would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything." That is also a bullshit statement as I know many web developers who would. Going to refute that?

Testing browsers entirely pass/fail on W3C standards is a faulty way to test. Especially since all web developers aren't coding to that standard. This is why, when web developers speak and say that a browser is not living up to its billing, I expect to see a test of all browsers tested as a comparison. Then, in the end, that single test does not determine the fate of the browser. I put much more faith in an overall test.
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reply to OZO

said by OZO:

said by Nightfall:

I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons. This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow.

No, this is a set of standards. If some developers don't follow them then the public has to keep and use multiple browsers... I, for one, don't want to go this way and try to open a web page with several web browsers, just to be able to see what that particular developer wanted me to see on it.

Its a set of standards that no one is required to follow. There is no governing body. There are no penalties for not following the standards. Which is why where we are at. I hate using a browser other than Firefox, but thats the way it is right now and will continue to be unless something changes.

Until that time comes, the method of testing these browsers should be more than the "W3C" standard. It should be also on usability, security, functionality, and so on.

Just because someone says a browser fails because it fails the W3C standard should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially since they aren't testing the "hundreds, perhaps thousands, of elements and particulars". Even then, there is so much else to consider.
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OZO
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said by Nightfall:

Its a set of standards that no one is required to follow. There is no governing body. There are no penalties for not following the standards.

Oh, really?

What do you need? A law? A police force to enforce that law? Or a common sense will suffice here? If it's the latter, then here is how it works. Web developer needs me to visit his web site. Not the other way around. That's why the owner of the web site pays money for web site development, maintenance, Internet service (name, certificates, incoming traffic), etc. I, the Internet user, not asking you, the web developer to develop your web site for me. On the other hand, you, the web developer, are asking me to visit your web site. And some of web developers in a process may forget that simple truth...

Now, if it's clear, any web developer should plead for standards. They, the standards, make possible for an average user to visit their web site with a common tool they have at disposal, that supports those standards. Of course, you may try to make your site with your own interpretation of HTML and even ask users, who want to visit your web site, to download a program that will show your web page precisely as you want. But as you may guess, it's plain dumb idea and it will not work for majority of users. They will simply refuse that offer (to download a program to see the site), ignore your site and simply move on to another site.

Bottom line, it is in the best interests of any web developer to make their web site be functional with as many of web browsers currently available as possible. And it could be achieved only if all of participants (web developers and developers of web browsers) obey common standards.
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Nightfall
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said by OZO:

said by Nightfall:

Its a set of standards that no one is required to follow. There is no governing body. There are no penalties for not following the standards.

Oh, really?

What do you need? A law? A police force to enforce that law? Or a common sense will suffice here? If it's the latter, then here is how it works. Web developer needs me to visit his web site. Not the other way around. That's why the owner of the web site pays money for web site development, maintenance, Internet service (name, certificates, incoming traffic), etc. I, the Internet user, not asking you, the web developer to develop your web site for me. On the other hand, you, the web developer, are asking me to visit your web site. And some of web developers in a process may forget that simple truth...

Now, if it's clear, any web developer should plead for standards. They, the standards, make possible for an average user to visit their web site with a common tool they have at disposal, that supports those standards. Of course, you may try to make your site with your own interpretation of HTML and even ask users, who want to visit your web site, to download a program that will show your web page precisely as you want. But as you may guess, it's plain dumb idea and it will not work for majority of users. They will simply refuse that offer (to download a program to see the site), ignore your site and simply move on to another site.

Bottom line, it is in the best interests of any web developer to make their web site be functional with as many of web browsers currently available as possible. And it could be achieved only if all of participants (web developers and developers of web browsers) obey common standards.

We are in 100% agreement. Until that day comes though, the standard that we have for testing browsers has to be more than just "W3C standards". We need to test browsers with a variety of methods. When the dust settles, there are going to be plenty of options to choose from, all depending on the site and what is being displayed.
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howardfine

join:2002-08-09
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I was going to explain some more to you how you are just utterly confused as to how the web works but I just don't feel like it and I don't think it will do any good. I don't know where you got the information have now but I recently saw a great online flip book that explained how browsers work put out by Google. It's for non-technical people such as yourself but I can't find it myself right now.

In the meantime, just for laughs, you should go to these script-kiddies (I presume) who told you they don't code to standards and ask them what I've asked you, "What do you use if you don't use the W3C standard?" and let us know what they said. What do they use besides W3C spec'd HTML/CSS/XML/DOM? What do they use besides ECMAScript? It will be most interesting.

I already said I've asked these kids that question in the past. I'm sure you'll get the same response.



Dude111
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3 edits
reply to Gone Fishing

 

said by howardfine :
IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything.
Actually nothing past IE6 gains you anything.. IN FACT,YOU LOSE STUFF FROM IE7!

1) You lose the ability to custimise the UI the way YOU WANT IT (Address bar on bottom,etc)

2) You lose the nice colourful icons (Not nearly as many)

3) It becomes even more bloated,costing you more resources

4) YOU DONT KNOW 100% THEY ARENT SPYING ON YOU!

5) The text IS BOLD/DIFFERENT STYLE and not as easy to read! (I have seen it (Especially with cleartext -- What garbage that is!))



IE6 and lower DO NOT SPY ON YOU as they came out BEFORE the intrusive phase started! (Win2000 SP4)



As far as security: You can lock down IE6 as good as IE7,8,9 and 10 by putting it on HIGH SECURITY...... And IE6 is much prettier (Even the first release of IE6 (6.0.2800.1106))

Like howardline says: YOU GAIN NOTHING..You lose stuff (Probably most important being YOUR PRIVACY)


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reply to howardfine

Re: [IE] Internet Explorer: The Browser You Loved To Hate

said by howardfine:

I was going to explain some more to you how you are just utterly confused as to how the web works but I just don't feel like it and I don't think it will do any good. I don't know where you got the information have now but I recently saw a great online flip book that explained how browsers work put out by Google. It's for non-technical people such as yourself but I can't find it myself right now.

It sounds like we both know why some web developers don't code to the W3C standard then. The answers aren't acceptable to us, but thats beside the point.

I already understand how the web works thank you very much. I think what you need to do is to take a good long look at what questions I asked you. Let me requote them for you.

quote:
I have already proven you wrong on things you have said. For instance, when you said, "IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything," that is a bullshit statement. You going to refute that? How about when you said, "no web developer in all these years would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything." That is also a bullshit statement as I know many web developers who would. Going to refute that?

No refute for your biased statements? Since I have already "proved you wrong", I believe this conversation is over.
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