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resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

CRTC looking for comments on ####

Confidentiality of information used to establish wholesale service rates

»www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-168.htm

quote:
6. The Commission notes that in other proceedings it has received comments in which parties have submitted that they do not have sufficient access to incumbent carriers’ costing information to permit them to participate fully in the regulatory process.

7. The Commission considers that it is in the public interest to obtain as full and complete a record as possible on which to base its decisions with respect to rates for wholesale services. It further considers that it is in the public interest that this information should be obtained on as timely a basis as possible.

8. Further the Commission notes that parties other than the incumbent carriers may have expertise related to the evaluation of the incumbent carriers’ cost studies. The Commission therefore considers that to the extent these parties may have increased access to incumbent carrier information that is currently considered to be confidential they may be able to contribute to the development of a more full and complete record.
I'm quite surprised they're opening this up to public comment.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5

Good. I hope certain parties *cough* JF *cough* will comment on this.

I'm sure I've said this before but if they do public proceedings on wholesale terms and rates then obviously we also need to see the actual costing information from the incumbents.



Davesnothere
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1 edit

said by mlerner:

Good. I hope certain parties *cough* JF *cough* will comment on this.

I'm sure I've said this before but if they do public proceedings on wholesale terms and rates then obviously we also need to see the actual costing information from the incumbents.

 
Ahem, JF, has your radar picked up this apparently concilliatory gesture ?


Davesnothere
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reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

....I'm quite surprised they're opening this up to public comment.

 
Normally, my reply to #### would be $#@!

Almost seems like a symbolic 'Breath of Fresh Spring Air', as it were.

Are we in a parallel universe ? [Dave wonders how to check for that.]

Surely with this wonderful weather, 'Golfing' should have started early, yet they ask us THIS ?

[Switching to Deep Ominous Movie Trailer Announcer voice]

Is B$ELL capable of transparency with their ####s ?

Or is this like when the strip teaser pulls down the garment of clothing an inch or two, only to pull it back up ?

(Yes, I know - two different kinds of 'FIGURES' depicted )

Find out in a future episode....

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry -
(1) That things will never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !
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freejazz_RdJ

join:2009-03-10
kudos:1
reply to resa1983

This will be fascinating. We may end up learning that the costs actually aren't all invented by rolling dice and random number generators. Or that they are. Either way, one party won't be happy with the outcome.



Davesnothere
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ROFLPML @ "or that they ARE".

Maybe BLOD (Best Laugh of Day)


grunze510

join:2009-02-14
Cote Saint-Luc, QC
kudos:1

They'll use »www.random.org/ to decide whether they use a random number generator or a pair of dice.

Meanwhile, the real rates that they do show off are either from 1990 or 2005, depending on the temperature in Iqaluit. If it's above 10, then it's from 2005, if it's below 10, then it's from 1990.



n3k0

@teksavvy.com
reply to Davesnothere

Yes, this is fantastic news. Bringing in a trusted third party, to review submitted costs from the incumbents, is brilliant thinking from the CRTC, & absolutely concurs with their mandate to serve the public interest.

JF, you must be pleased with this news, n'est-ce pas?



WaitForGodot

join:2009-01-07
reply to grunze510

said by grunze510:

They'll use »www.random.org/ to decide whether they use a random number generator or a pair of dice.

Meanwhile, the real rates that they do show off are either from 1990 or 2005, depending on the temperature in Iqaluit. If it's above 10, then it's from 2005, if it's below 10, then it's from 1990.

Part of the cost structure involves including the green fees. With this short winter, I am sure a lot of Golf will be played.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to freejazz_RdJ

said by freejazz_RdJ:

Or that they are. Either way, one party won't be happy with the outcome.

I imagine we'll have many very sad pandas on our hands if it turns out that Robelgecotron's costs actually are defensible... and unfortunately for us, I predict that most of it will be.

jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23

Thanks for the heads up. Not sure what possible outcome this can have because confidential information is confidential. But it is interesting.

I should have bought a shitload of red bull when it was on sale. :-(


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by jfmezei:

Not sure what possible outcome this can have because confidential information is confidential. But it is interesting.

Considering how much harm that confidentiality is causing to the whole process, the CRTC's credibility, the incumbents' credibility, the ISPs and associated organizations, etc., the CRTC might have finally decided that the benefits of disclosure far outweigh any potential competitive harm that could possibly be caused by disclosure.

At this point, it seems highly unlikely the "wholesalegate" could reach a final resolution any other way.


EUS
Kill cancer
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join:2002-09-10
canada
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·voip.ms
reply to InvalidError

Absolutely. Costs can be anything they wish, all they require is to include overhead and burden, impossible for an outsider without the detailed data to counter.
--
~ Project Hope ~


jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:23

Ironic because my last submission done on the 21st on the service charge tariffs started with:

quote:
Vaxination Informatique submits its comments on the various tariffs dealing with service charges for changing purchased capacity in the new wholesale internet access billing set by TRP 2011-703. Because Vaxination is not privy to the numbers hidden behind the “#” signs, it can only deal on general issues which are common to incumbents. Hence a single submission.



elwoodblues
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reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

At this point, it seems highly unlikely the "wholesalegate" could reach a final resolution any other way.

Not till all the IISP's are gone, that's for sure. Robellus will spend their last dime fighting them.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


Colors

@videotron.ca
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

I'm quite surprised they're opening this up to public comment.

I expect some colourful language to emerge.


Davesnothere
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1 edit
reply to jfmezei

said by jfmezei:

Ironic because my last submission done on the 21st on the service charge tariffs started with:

quote:
Vaxination Informatique submits its comments on the various tariffs dealing with service charges for changing purchased capacity in the new wholesale internet access billing set by TRP 2011-703. Because Vaxination is not privy to the numbers hidden behind the “#” signs, it can only deal on general issues which are common to incumbents. Hence a single submission.

 
[facetious] NOW we know where the CRTC got the idea to be curious !

It's all YOUR fault, JF ! [/facetious]

EDIT : Added tags for IE (and anyone else)

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InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by Davesnothere:

NOW we know where the CRTC got the idea to be curious !

The CRTC is not "getting curious" since they already had all the numbers they needed to derive Bell&friends' proposed tariff rates from "in confidence" filings. What they want is to open enough of those to the public so third-parties can repeat the CRTC's exercise and probably reach similar conclusions/rates as the CRTC has.


Shrug

@videotron.ca
reply to freejazz_RdJ

said by freejazz_RdJ:

This will be fascinating. We may end up learning that the costs actually aren't all invented by rolling dice and random number generators. Or that they are. Either way, one party won't be happy with the outcome.

If I recall right, CNOC filed about the ##### Monkey business, demanding some answers.

However, I don't expect it to be part of any public record. If anything Rogers will fight more so than Bell, Videotron and Telus to prevent this.

Rogers has a history of trying to muscle the CRTC from preventing any sort of information to be shown. Including the filing where some kid got ripped off with text message fee's and it hit the CRTC. Rogers blew a fuse that the CRTC wanted it on pubic record. heh

Or, the CRTC is just caving to public pressure about all these BS #####'s and all this is is a show that will go nowhere.


Davesnothere
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reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

The CRTC is not "getting curious" since they already had all the numbers they needed to derive Bell&friends' proposed tariff rates from "in confidence" filings. What they want is to open enough of those to the public so third-parties can repeat the CRTC's exercise and probably reach similar conclusions/rates as the CRTC has.

 
IOW, they do not want to be held solely (at some future date) responsible for just taking B$ELLetc's word for the numbers behind the various ####s.

They would rather share that potential burden with some of the other interested parties by making them more participative in the process.

Besides, there are some sharp minds out there which would either confirm or dispute the hidden numbers, and the CRTC might well be just as curious as WE are to get some feedback from those minds.

I DO get all that, and was just being facetious earlier - sometimes that is hard to do textually, so I also amended that post by adding tags.
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resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

Getting some news already:

»www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tec···2378470/

quote:
The CRTC had issued a new pricing model in November that would see smaller ISPs, which lease space on the networks of larger providers like Bell Canada, pay for the total capacity they need rather than the volume of data downloaded.

That compromise decision, however, is now being appealed by CNOC and companies including BCE, Rogers and Quebecor Media Inc.

A CRTC spokesman confirmed Thursday that the consultation is separate from that appeals’ process. As a result, if the consultation results in changes to the disclosure of confidential costing information, those new rules would not apply to the current appeals process.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to resa1983

Some prior comments of mine on the subject

Financial Audits
November 2009
»Re: UBB round 2 at the CRTC

April 2010
»Re: New Canadian Privacy Commissioner funded DPI website

November 2010
»Re: CNOC: Proceedings on ILEC and Cable Carrier Cost Studies
»Re: Is a netflix subscription feasible under UBB?

February 2011
»Re: So Bell, you're telling me....

March 2011
»Re: Fourth Meeting: Media Coverage
»Re: Fourth Meeting: Media Coverage
»Re: Bell Canada's financials and UBB

April 2011
»Re: "Liberals First Out With Their Digital Economy Strategy

July 2011
»Re: UBB final replies

Technical Audits
July 2009
»Re: What are your impressions on how the CRTC handled Bell?

August 2009
»Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary

February 2011
»Re: INDU Thread: Tuesday Mar 1st, 2011

April 2011
»Re: Bell cheating?


MaynardKrebs
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reply to Shrug

said by Shrug :

said by freejazz_RdJ:

This will be fascinating. We may end up learning that the costs actually aren't all invented by rolling dice and random number generators. Or that they are. Either way, one party won't be happy with the outcome.

If I recall right, CNOC filed about the ##### Monkey business, demanding some answers.

However, I don't expect it to be part of any public record. If anything Rogers will fight more so than Bell, Videotron and Telus to prevent this.

Rogers has a history of trying to muscle the CRTC from preventing any sort of information to be shown. Including the filing where some kid got ripped off with text message fee's and it hit the CRTC. Rogers blew a fuse that the CRTC wanted it on pubic record. heh

Or, the CRTC is just caving to public pressure about all these BS #####'s and all this is is a show that will go nowhere.

Maybe we enlist Ellen Roseman @ The Toronto Star to write about the cozy boys club that is the CRTC & the incumbents.

She managed to get a lot of traction on the Direct Energy water heater debacle, and many other 'consumer' issues over the years. Incumbents hiding behind #####'s goes directly to consumer interests.

LastDon

join:2002-08-13
reply to freejazz_RdJ

said by freejazz_RdJ:

This will be fascinating. We may end up learning that the costs actually aren't all invented by rolling dice and random number generators. Or that they are. Either way, one party won't be happy with the outcome.

It is also possible that the Bell, Rogers and Cogeco People can make Typos in the numbers and represent something else that is the truth, and thus make it the truth .

I Mean, example the studies that Rogers pays for, that say internet in Canada is the Fastest and the Cheapest, lol....

A few dollar bills towards a typo mistake can always represent higher #####

LastDon

join:2002-08-13
reply to resa1983

I am Going to write a letter to this as well.

Dear CRTC,

I am hoping that full disclosure will be obtain for the cost.

The Canadian Public is not Twitter and ##### tags are unacceptable.

The tax payers pay your salaries to represent the public not the companies that promote twitter in their letters to you.

Thank you.

That is all.


freejazz_RdJ

join:2009-03-10
kudos:1
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by freejazz_RdJ:

Or that they are. Either way, one party won't be happy with the outcome.

I imagine we'll have many very sad pandas on our hands if it turns out that Robelgecotron's costs actually are defensible... and unfortunately for us, I predict that most of it will be.

I do as well. I think the estimates provided by CNOC in their appeal do not include many things that drive carrier costs. In particular, they will have underestimated the overhead costs for project management, the IS/IT components and the licensing costs for OS/Features/OSS/etc. Perhaps also the labour costs for many components.

People will be shocked by the prices vendors charge for software, what the total loaded cost of an employee earning $40K cash salary is and how complex the network is or how complex a "simple" service is to order, deliver, operate and maintain.


Davesnothere
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said by freejazz_RdJ:

....People will be shocked by the prices vendors charge for software, what the total loaded cost of an employee earning $40K cash salary is and how complex the network is or how complex a "simple" service is to order, deliver, operate and maintain.

 
And we may well be.

But equally as shocking to many of us is the extreme disparity in costing from one incumbent to the next, etc., and especially among the Cablecos as a group.

I feel that this notable spread is what is driving much of the latest commentary and the plethora of R&Vs now in circulation.

--

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(1) That things may never get back to normal
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Or you can still use Canadian Broadband.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by Davesnothere:

But equally as shocking to many of us is the extreme disparity in costing from one incumbent to the next, etc., and especially among the Cablecos as a group.

Different provinces, different province taxes, different provincial laws, different municipal regulations, different labor laws, different safety laws/regulations, different professional regulations, different wages and benefits, different land values and property taxes, etc. can all contribute to significant differences in operating costs... already lots of room for variability and we haven't factored in corporate culture, organizational structure, technology mix, geographical obstacles, etc. yet.

They're different companies operating in completely different environments so they cannot be directly compared, expecting their costs to be exactly the same is unreasonable.

LastDon

join:2002-08-13
reply to freejazz_RdJ

said by freejazz_RdJ:

said by InvalidError:

said by freejazz_RdJ:

Or that they are. Either way, one party won't be happy with the outcome.

I imagine we'll have many very sad pandas on our hands if it turns out that Robelgecotron's costs actually are defensible... and unfortunately for us, I predict that most of it will be.

I do as well. I think the estimates provided by CNOC in their appeal do not include many things that drive carrier costs. In particular, they will have underestimated the overhead costs for project management, the IS/IT components and the licensing costs for OS/Features/OSS/etc. Perhaps also the labour costs for many components.

People will be shocked by the prices vendors charge for software, what the total loaded cost of an employee earning $40K cash salary is and how complex the network is or how complex a "simple" service is to order, deliver, operate and maintain.

Yes but these cost's and many of the cost are made by the customers and much much more.

Also, the network is laid out for them over time and money invested and tax breaks credits etc they got.

Lets say it cost bell #### for one remote - and on this remote they had 100 customers paying at an average of $50 per month..

that is $5000 x 12 months 60000$

(for one remote)

or in bell terms that you might understand better

$#### x ## = $## ###

Than fraction in the bandwidth cost which we know what it cost in the pennies department.

Avg out light users getting raped on bells network etc

I don't think we will be shocked.

But I believe they are going to complain and whine and fight not to release the numbers

I think the only shock IF the numbers are released will be the PEOPLE finding out they are being raped.

Here is an example: text msging is part of the GSM spectrum and was included in the GSM frequency. It cost nothing for the carriers to send SMS via their networks... yet How much on avg do peope pay or paid?


Davesnothere
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reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

....They're different companies operating in completely different environments so they cannot be directly compared, expecting their costs to be exactly the same is unreasonable.

 
Agreed.

Not exactly the same.

But the currently quoted spread in the CBB fees is still too wide, IMNSHO, and when the CRTC uncovers and lets an independent party compare the different BEAN-COUNTING methodologies, maybe THEN we'll be getting somewhere.

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !
-
START Forum »Start Communications
Or you can still use Canadian Broadband.