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 NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI |
to wcda
Re: [IE] Internet Explorer: The Browser You Loved To HateThis is exactly my point. I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons. This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow. I have found a plethora of articles from experts that state that W3C is a waste of time for various reasons. While I believe a set of standards are good, they are only good if everyone is on board with them. The way the web is structured, this is never going to happen. Until then, browsers should be tested based on performance, rendering pages, security, and usability. This is a good review on three of the browsers. » www.techradar.com/news/s ··· 0-935792 | | | |
said by Nightfall:This is exactly my point. I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons.
If you're going to refer to that site as a source for comments for "web developers" then you're in trouble. While there are some very competent people there, comments like that (in an 8-year old thread) are only made by amateurs. quote:
This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow. I have found a plethora of articles from experts that state that W3C is a waste of time for various reasons.
I'm still waiting for you, or anyone, to point to anything anywhere that's an alternative to the W3C. I will repeat what I said before, too. ALL browser vendors are members of the W3C. They write the standards there AND they follow the W3C specification as they create their browser code. If you think there is some other organization or standards they are following, then you're only dreaming and need to wake up. quote:
This is a good review on three of the browsers.
»www.techradar.com/news/s ··· 0-935792
It's amazing to me that you ignore my links as being biased, bullshit by Mozilla and Google developers yet you find some random guy on the internet and call his review "good". | | OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17
2 recommendations |
OZO
Premium Member
2012-Mar-23 3:42 pm
howardfine  , with all due respect, do you know that on this forum opening HTML tags require symmetrical closing tags? For example: [bquote] your cite is here [/bquote]If you do and if it's not way too technical for you, please follow that simple rule. Otherwise you produce posts (and not just once) that are difficult to read... | | NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI |
to howardfine
The reason why that review is good is that it tests the usability of the browsers across the internet with a variety of tests such as performance, security, and so on. (Please note the W3C testing they did which takes less than a paragraph). You are not linking reviews comparing the browsers. You are linking biased reviews of people who don't like IE9 and are basing that off standards that aren't followed by everyone.
There is no alternative to W3C because there are no standards that everyone follows. As I said before, I know a fair share of web developers that don't follow the W3C for various reasons. Now, in your mind that doesn't make them web developers, but in my mind it still does. They just have other ways to make things work, which is neither good or bad.
Once again, I am not saying that W3C is bad. The idea of standards that everyone adheres to is a good thing, but only if everyone adheres to them. Since not everyone adheres to them, the standards you are using to back a browser (which has already passed prior tests) is crap. Base browsers on usability, performance, security, features, and so on.
Besides, when you make bullshit statements like you have made earlier in this thread, you already show a biased opinion. Please stop trying to justify it, admit it, and move on. | | OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17 |
to Nightfall
said by Nightfall:I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons. This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow. No, this is a set of standards. If some developers don't follow them then the public has to keep and use multiple browsers... I, for one, don't want to go this way and try to open a web page with several web browsers, just to be able to see what that particular developer wanted me to see on it.  I have found a plethora of articles from experts that state that W3C is a waste of time for various reasons. While I believe a set of standards are good, they are only good if everyone is on board with them. The way the web is structured, this is never going to happen. You can find a plethora of lazy web developers too, who don't respect any standards and naively think, that if the user wants to see his/her page, he has to use specific browser, which that developer happens to have and use. Yeah, right... I'll tell you what'll happen. Instead of installing a bunch of different browsers for folks like you, I'll better open your page in my favorite browser and if it's not rendered properly there, I simply go to another site. How about that? Who wins here? | |  jabarnutLight Years Away
Premium Member
join:2005-01-22
Galaxy M31
1 recommendation |
to OZO
Heh...I noticed that as well. But I guess when you're a web developer, there are far more important things to worry about, than simple HTML tags. Ok, sorry folks...carry on. And I do mean carry on.  | | | |
to Nightfall
said by Nightfall: (Please note the W3C testing they did which takes less than a paragraph).
And there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of elements and particulars not being tested. quote:
You are not linking reviews comparing the browsers. You are linking biased reviews of people who don't like IE9 and are basing that off standards that aren't followed by everyone.
Or are they just telling the truth as it is? What do you want them to say if something is bad? Just look for a silver lining and ignore the rest? quote:
There is no alternative to W3C because there are no standards that everyone follows. As I said before, I know a fair share of web developers that don't follow the W3C for various reasons.
Again I ask you, what are they following if they're not following the W3C?! You even state there are no other standards so what are they following? After all, even the browser vendors follow the W3C so how can they be doing anything else? I keep asking you that question! quote:
Besides, when you make bullshit statements like you have made earlier in this thread, you already show a biased opinion. Please stop trying to justify it, admit it, and move on.
Again I say to you, if you can prove me wrong in anything I've shown or said, do it. You can't cause I'm showing the truth and apparently you don't want to believe what's in front of your eyes. I showed you one testing site and one chart where it shows the technical specs and shows IE is far behind all other browsers in technical compliance yet you call it bullshit, bias, angry developers and you say I showed you nothing. I just don't know what else I can do. | | NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI |
I have no idea what they are following. As a web developer, you should know what they are doing. Why don't you enlighten me with the reasons why some web developers don't follow W3C standards. Just doing a check out on the web, I could probably find some developers opinions on the matter and post them here. As an "expert" you may know why off the top of your head. Why don't you answer that question.
I have already proven you wrong on things you have said. For instance, when you said, "IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything," that is a bullshit statement. You going to refute that? How about when you said, "no web developer in all these years would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything." That is also a bullshit statement as I know many web developers who would. Going to refute that?
Testing browsers entirely pass/fail on W3C standards is a faulty way to test. Especially since all web developers aren't coding to that standard. This is why, when web developers speak and say that a browser is not living up to its billing, I expect to see a test of all browsers tested as a comparison. Then, in the end, that single test does not determine the fate of the browser. I put much more faith in an overall test. | | | Nightfall |
to OZO
said by OZO:said by Nightfall:I know many web developers that don't follow W3C for various reasons. This isn't like a set of standards that every web developer has to follow. No, this is a set of standards. If some developers don't follow them then the public has to keep and use multiple browsers... I, for one, don't want to go this way and try to open a web page with several web browsers, just to be able to see what that particular developer wanted me to see on it. Its a set of standards that no one is required to follow. There is no governing body. There are no penalties for not following the standards. Which is why where we are at. I hate using a browser other than Firefox, but thats the way it is right now and will continue to be unless something changes. Until that time comes, the method of testing these browsers should be more than the "W3C" standard. It should be also on usability, security, functionality, and so on. Just because someone says a browser fails because it fails the W3C standard should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially since they aren't testing the "hundreds, perhaps thousands, of elements and particulars". Even then, there is so much else to consider. | | | OZO
Premium Member
join:2003-01-17 |
OZO
Premium Member
2012-Mar-23 7:58 pm
said by Nightfall:Its a set of standards that no one is required to follow. There is no governing body. There are no penalties for not following the standards. Oh, really? What do you need? A law? A police force to enforce that law? Or a common sense will suffice here? If it's the latter, then here is how it works. Web developer needs me to visit his web site. Not the other way around. That's why the owner of the web site pays money for web site development, maintenance, Internet service (name, certificates, incoming traffic), etc. I, the Internet user, not asking you, the web developer to develop your web site for me. On the other hand, you, the web developer, are asking me to visit your web site. And some of web developers in a process may forget that simple truth... Now, if it's clear, any web developer should plead for standards. They, the standards, make possible for an average user to visit their web site with a common tool they have at disposal, that supports those standards. Of course, you may try to make your site with your own interpretation of HTML and even ask users, who want to visit your web site, to download a program that will show your web page precisely as you want. But as you may guess, it's plain dumb idea and it will not work for majority of users. They will simply refuse that offer (to download a program to see the site), ignore your site and simply move on to another site. Bottom line, it is in the best interests of any web developer to make their web site be functional with as many of web browsers currently available as possible. And it could be achieved only if all of participants (web developers and developers of web browsers) obey common standards. | | NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI |
said by OZO:said by Nightfall:Its a set of standards that no one is required to follow. There is no governing body. There are no penalties for not following the standards. Oh, really? What do you need? A law? A police force to enforce that law? Or a common sense will suffice here? If it's the latter, then here is how it works. Web developer needs me to visit his web site. Not the other way around. That's why the owner of the web site pays money for web site development, maintenance, Internet service (name, certificates, incoming traffic), etc. I, the Internet user, not asking you, the web developer to develop your web site for me. On the other hand, you, the web developer, are asking me to visit your web site. And some of web developers in a process may forget that simple truth... Now, if it's clear, any web developer should plead for standards. They, the standards, make possible for an average user to visit their web site with a common tool they have at disposal, that supports those standards. Of course, you may try to make your site with your own interpretation of HTML and even ask users, who want to visit your web site, to download a program that will show your web page precisely as you want. But as you may guess, it's plain dumb idea and it will not work for majority of users. They will simply refuse that offer (to download a program to see the site), ignore your site and simply move on to another site. Bottom line, it is in the best interests of any web developer to make their web site be functional with as many of web browsers currently available as possible. And it could be achieved only if all of participants (web developers and developers of web browsers) obey common standards. We are in 100% agreement. Until that day comes though, the standard that we have for testing browsers has to be more than just "W3C standards". We need to test browsers with a variety of methods. When the dust settles, there are going to be plenty of options to choose from, all depending on the site and what is being displayed. | | | |
I was going to explain some more to you how you are just utterly confused as to how the web works but I just don't feel like it and I don't think it will do any good. I don't know where you got the information have now but I recently saw a great online flip book that explained how browsers work put out by Google. It's for non-technical people such as yourself but I can't find it myself right now.
In the meantime, just for laughs, you should go to these script-kiddies (I presume) who told you they don't code to standards and ask them what I've asked you, "What do you use if you don't use the W3C standard?" and let us know what they said. What do they use besides W3C spec'd HTML/CSS/XML/DOM? What do they use besides ECMAScript? It will be most interesting.
I already said I've asked these kids that question in the past. I'm sure you'll get the same response. | | NightfallMy Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI |
said by howardfine:I was going to explain some more to you how you are just utterly confused as to how the web works but I just don't feel like it and I don't think it will do any good. I don't know where you got the information have now but I recently saw a great online flip book that explained how browsers work put out by Google. It's for non-technical people such as yourself but I can't find it myself right now.
It sounds like we both know why some web developers don't code to the W3C standard then. The answers aren't acceptable to us, but thats beside the point. I already understand how the web works thank you very much. I think what you need to do is to take a good long look at what questions I asked you. Let me requote them for you. quote:
I have already proven you wrong on things you have said. For instance, when you said, "IE9 gains you nothing and you lose everything," that is a bullshit statement. You going to refute that? How about when you said, "no web developer in all these years would give anyone the advice to use IE for anything." That is also a bullshit statement as I know many web developers who would. Going to refute that?
No refute for your biased statements? Since I have already "proved you wrong", I believe this conversation is over. | |
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