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CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to fiberguy

Re: A 10 GB cap? What a joke.

While the system may be designed for rural areas, the fact that it creates a broadband monopoly in those area (which allows artificially high pricing) is indisputable.

talos4

join:2002-01-30
Manassas, VA
Presuming satellite would be available to most as well, it would be another duopoly. If no satellite, then i agree they will be a monopoly for the time being. In theory, the first to market with any new service would be a monopoly. Those areas will have some competition if AT&T or another wireless service provider deploys a similar product.

chances14

join:2010-03-03
Michigan
reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy:

said by 45612019:

No. They're paid for by having numerous subscribers forking out $60 or more a month for service.

Implementing low bandwidth caps with high overage fees is completely unnecessary to recoup deployment costs. That's what the subscriber fee is for. Vastly marked up bandwidth overage fees are just an opportunity to price gouge the consumer.

Have you ever run a company? .. it sure doesn't sound like it. According to you, the activist however, anything that doesn't fit your agenda by any company is going to be foul.

Towers, power, backhaul, employees, workmans comp, insurance (health and liability) taxes of all sorts, advertising, customer service, installation expenses, maintenance, the data itself, government affairs, the cost of spectrum, fuel, vehicle maintenance, the list goes on.. those are expenses.. and as someone that DOES run a business I can tell you that arguments that people like you make just irritate the hell out of me. You think you have it all figured out.. you think it's all about bandwidth. Oh, and they are allowed to make a profit too.

Now please, go on to tell me how all the stuff I mentioned above has nothing to do with the cost of providing the service, for one reason or another.

I don't know where you people get these figures and formulas you come up with to justify your position, but you're FAR FAR FAR off the mark most of the time.

But yea.. it's all about punitive caps and overages so they can gouge the consumer.

you gotta remember though that the majority of people on here do not/have not run their own business so they only look at stuff through a consumer point of view so it's understandable why people are uninformed and have no clue about underlying expenses

and remember around here any business that makes a profit is consider evil and greedy

chances14

join:2010-03-03
Michigan
reply to 45612019
said by 45612019:

Five times? Try 500 times.

If you believe Verizon is paying anything more than an average of 2 cents/gig for Internet traffic then you've been brainwashed.

can you give real, cold hard solid evidence to back that up that it only costs 2 cents a gig to deliver internet traffic or are you just doing what Karl does and guessing and making assumptions


N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2
reply to iFail 5G
Where I live used to be rural. I can see center city Philadelphia from my back deck yet I still have a well & a septic tank.

My well is 700ft deep (no bullshit). So, the water is a little hard, but I just run it through a Zero Water pitcher and it's awesome...
--
Petty people are disproportionally corrupted by petty power

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to talos4
Yes, true... I forgot about satellite. So they will have some limiting factor in their pricing. I bet that the overhead for satellite (no pun intended) is much higher than for fixed LTE and that Verizon will be able to profit accordingly.


shortyd999

join:2008-10-21
Birmingham, AL
reply to iFail 5G
Why do people consider Birmingham "rural"? I mean its a city of at 200K+ people (i know thats not large but still sizable). Or are they referring to the surrounding area?

openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2
reply to CXM_Splicer
So VZ is damned if they do, damned if they don't?

courty3210

join:2004-03-29
Wilmington, DE
reply to EvelKub
yeah, they should run wires into every house and maintain that infrastructure....instead of a towers servicing hundreds of people at a time.

this is why they aren't running fiber anymore, towers are much cheaper to keep operating with hundreds of techs than thousands of techs servicing house calls.


mech1164
I'll Be Back

join:2001-11-19
Lodi, NJ
reply to 45612019
said by 45612019:

That post was unworthy of a rebuttal.

The minute someone starts harping about the government and stereotyping any civilized area as being some gang war shootout zone you know you're dealing with a conservative.

Oh that's a bunch of CR@P. It just shows your political leanings. You inferred they were conservative. Nothing that was said could be construed that way unless that's what you think all people think that way are that. You lost that argument before you even opened yor trap.

iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03

1 edit
reply to 45612019
said by 45612019:

That post was unworthy of a rebuttal.

The minute someone starts harping about the government and stereotyping any civilized area as being some gang war shootout zone you know you're dealing with a conservative.

Right, a conservative. I have a house in Atlanta, GA. Not really the sticks, but I am smart and educated enough from living across the US and throughout England and Germany and know from experience what *big* nasty cities are like.

Sounds like your a liberal, crack smoking hippie if were going with stereo type's. Or since your from NY, your either a taxi cab driver or a drug dealing Apple fan

Seriously, don't stereotype someone living in a rural area conservative.

iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03
reply to 45612019
said by 45612019:

Five times? Try 500 times.

If you believe Verizon is paying anything more than an average of 2 cents/gig for Internet traffic then you've been brainwashed.

So how expensive is your wireless network, sign me up for your unlimited LTE

iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03
reply to sonicmerlin
said by sonicmerlin:

said by iFail 5G:

Its a deal breaker for me not being able to take my boats out anytime I want, being able to ride my ATV wherever the hell I want, and depending on the gov. for every single thing. If the city water supply gets contaminated which has happened before, I still have sanitary, clean, well water.

You realize your lifestyle is subsidized by federal tax money taken from the cities? Rural states are like black holes when it comes to tax money. Their economies feed on the trough of the military industrial complex and give nothing in return.

Oh well, I make up for it with my income and my house in the city. My lifestyle out there is fantastic, especially the part about my redneck neighbor's with brand new Escalades and Silverado HD's that get 12MPG, and my Malibu boat that gets more of 5MPG. My blackhole of a community is very nice.

iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03
reply to shortyd999
said by shortyd999:

Why do people consider Birmingham "rural"? I mean its a city of at 200K+ people (i know thats not large but still sizable). Or are they referring to the surrounding area?

The city of Birmingham isn't really *rural*, but the communities in the Birmingham metro area where this service is offered are VERY rural, like western Jefferson county and Jasper county such as Oak Grove, Alliance, Oakman, West Jefferson, Parrish, and so forth. And south Shelby county where no broadband is available. I am in one of those situations with my lake house in western Jefferson county where AT&T only has EDGE 2G service, but Verizon has 4G LTE and this is a perfect situation for home fusion.

iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03
reply to Kearnstd
said by Kearnstd:

I know my road will get plowed with in hours of a snow fall instead of weeks.

That's why I just bought a Subaru

iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03
reply to chances14
said by chances14:

nice rebuttal

pull out the politics card

since when are conservatives the only ones who live in rural areas anyways?

Since the only people living in dense urban area's are drug dealers or Yuppies!

iFail 5G

join:2011-08-03
reply to sonicmerlin
said by sonicmerlin:

said by iFail 5G:

said by 45612019:

I like how Verizon is deploying this pointless shit instead of continuing to build a real broadband network like FiOS.

You can download more than 10 gigabytes in a month on dial up.

This isn't broadband. This is an abomination.

Clearly you have never lived in a rural area. Here in Birmingham where this is also one of their first markets for home fusion, a lot of rural areas can't even get LANDLINES. So the only option is is satellite which is horrible. This at least I pull down over 50mbit/s constantly.

Ill take the 10GB cap for usable service any day

So wait, you actually have the service and get 50 mbit/s?

Yea, I have had it for a while now and the speeds are great..

www.speedtest.net/android/155332153.png
www.speedtest.net/android/158265176.png


fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to CXM_Splicer
Well then shucks my darn! .. perhaps they should just say screw it and not serve those areas so that people like you won't bitch about it.

So far it doesn't seem that their pricing is far out of line over their other wireless pricing, now, does it? Wait.. it actually seems like this service is a bit better pricing than even their mobile LTE service.

Again.. what's the issue? .. I guess I can see where you're coming from. Punish them for bringing a new technology wireless service to an area with out anything really.. and damn them for charging a price YOU don't agree with.

Do you have a valid argument yet?

fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
reply to chances14
And I agree with you.. and I accept that. But the problem is that when they go beyond just a "thought" and try to push it out as a matter of fact.. that's where I will take on the debate.

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to iansltx
said by iansltx:

It's harder to market a product with cap-free times, maybe?

If I was running a network with relatively low capacity at peak but low off-peak usage, I'd offer some sort of incentive for off-peak usage. Verizon not doing this (just like WildBlue has never done this) is there prerogative. HughesNet is the only major provider to offer a cap-free period in the US.

The reason they're not doing it is because they want to profit heartily off of idiots who don't know what a "cap" is. Provide people with the low latency and high bandwidth required to watch videos, and watch the overage profits pour in. They won't even considering just throttling users instead of overcharging them.

Off-peak hours makes perfect sense only if you don't care about maximizing profits at the expense of your customers. Throttling only on congested hours while offering unlimited is also quite possible, especially in these very sparsely populated rural areas.

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to chances14
said by chances14:

said by 45612019:

Five times? Try 500 times.

If you believe Verizon is paying anything more than an average of 2 cents/gig for Internet traffic then you've been brainwashed.

can you give real, cold hard solid evidence to back that up that it only costs 2 cents a gig to deliver internet traffic or are you just doing what Karl does and guessing and making assumptions

This is from 2010: »www.dslprime.com/a-wirel ··· gigabyte

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to iFail 5G
said by iFail 5G:

Yea, I have had it for a while now and the speeds are great..

www.speedtest.net/android/155332153.png
www.speedtest.net/android/158265176.png


Jeez. That is cruddy fast. I hope Sprint comes in one day and offers their own unlimited LTE cantenna service.

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1
reply to iFail 5G
said by iFail 5G:

said by sonicmerlin:

said by iFail 5G:

Its a deal breaker for me not being able to take my boats out anytime I want, being able to ride my ATV wherever the hell I want, and depending on the gov. for every single thing. If the city water supply gets contaminated which has happened before, I still have sanitary, clean, well water.

You realize your lifestyle is subsidized by federal tax money taken from the cities? Rural states are like black holes when it comes to tax money. Their economies feed on the trough of the military industrial complex and give nothing in return.

Oh well, I make up for it with my income and my house in the city. My lifestyle out there is fantastic, especially the part about my redneck neighbor's with brand new Escalades and Silverado HD's that get 12MPG, and my Malibu boat that gets more of 5MPG. My blackhole of a community is very nice.

Yes... I know it is. But none of it would be possible without the cross subsidies that mostly blue states end up paying for rural states. The only exception is Texas. It's the only red state that actually provides more money in federal taxes to the government than it receives. IIRC California loses the most tax money to the government of all US states.
Expand your moderator at work

GroovyPhoenx

join:2006-05-22
Gloucester, ON
reply to fiberguy

Re: A 10 GB cap? What a joke.

It does, of course! It's called the price of doing business. Making a profit? No that's not a crime. Profeteering however is. and at the cost and even with a markup, if the bandwidth cost and all those mentioned merited SOME markup it certainly shouldn't be from 10 cents to 10$! that's just ludicrous,

Just because someone CAN make that much a profit doesn't mean they SHOULD.

I can charge 100000000 to optimize a PC, but that doesn't mean I'll get it. Healthy competition keeps pries down, but companies like verizon etc don't want that to happen, instead those profit dollars are spent on big "donations" on senators/congressman to make sure they get their way. Hire more lobyists, and kill teh american economy. You want to blame folks for that? Blame moneygrubbing people who just think of the all mighty dolla.

travelguy

join:1999-09-03
Santa Fe, NM
Reviews:
·Callcentric
said by GroovyPhoenx:

It does, of course! It's called the price of doing business. Making a profit? No that's not a crime. Profeteering however is. and at the cost and even with a markup,

Really? Please cite the law that states that "profeteering", whatever that is, is illegal. Aside from a few state and local laws regarding pricing during or immediately after an emergency, I'm not aware of any.

said by GroovyPhoenx:

Just because someone CAN make that much a profit doesn't mean they SHOULD.

I think you might want to take a basic refresher course in economics. Just because someone can make a profit means they absolutely should. Those profits are turned around and spent on other products and services, which in turn puts other people to work and allows those business owners to make a profit.


anon222

@adstx.net
reply to fiberguy
That is a nice set of examples but you left out the fact that those costs don't increase once someone hit a magic number of GB's. You think tech support starts making a higher hourly wage or suddenly hires more people when you hit a certain GB? Think their employee insurance rates go up once I hit 10GB? lol They aren't increasing their backhual if they are rate limiting. Not one thing you listed goes up in cost when a user hits a magic number at which time they are exorbitantly charged for overages. Yes it is their choice but what the poster is getting at is the only cost that increases for Verizon is the cost of transfered bytes for said customer and the cost is very low for them. Instead of throttling they will impose crazy fees to line their pockets and advertise stunning speeds without rate limits!

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to 45612019
said by 45612019:

I'd rather my connection drop down to half its speed during peak hours than be artificially limited to only using it for a tiny fraction of my billing period.

Do the rest of us get a vote? You know, those of us who need to occasionally download something big and whom aren't looking to use LTE as a replacement for purpose-designed video delivery systems?


45612019

join:2004-02-05
New York, NY
No.

travelguy

join:1999-09-03
Santa Fe, NM
Reviews:
·Callcentric

1 recommendation

reply to anon222
[
said by anon222 :

what the poster is getting at is the only cost that increases for Verizon is the cost of transfered bytes for said customer and the cost is very low for them.

What law requires that selling price be based on marginal cost?

Consider toll roads - If one additional vehicle goes across the road, do their costs increase? Should all the drivers get a rebate?

Consider airlines - If one more person gets on the plane, do their costs increase? Should that person fly free or all the other passenger tickets be reduced?

Pricing is based purely on what a person is willing to pay. If that covers costs plus a profit over the long term, then the business will continue. If not, it will shut down.

The primary flaw with cost plus pricing is that there is zero incentive to reduce the cost. If you know you are always going to get a certain percentage, why would you ever spend any money on improving what you are selling?

Profit is the motivation to invest. High profits attract competitors which drive prices down. Ultimately, the consumer can just say no and drive the company out of business. How's that for power?