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telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7
reply to tshirt

Re: [Caps] What do you think Comcast should do now about its dat

said by tshirt:

Exactly! Free and Unlimited are the most over used and inaccurate terms in these threads.

That is why even I have said that I don't think unlimited data is a realistic possibility now.

My vote was for changing to a finite, but tier-varying, cap.

Right now, Comcast Business HSI is still unlimited. Does that IP traffic use the facilities and HSI QAMs that residential users in the same neighboring areas use?


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast

Yup, it all comes over the same hybrid fiber/coax wire. and that still in some places, at some times is marginal/inadiquite to handle the current traffic level (i.e. areas which have not yet recieved D3 or the number of channels for d3 usage are limited, or areas where virtual nodes are maxed out and plant upgrades/more physical nodes are still in progress are most effected)
But business users are frequently on seperrate sets of channels with much lower contention which assures full speeds and available bandwidth as needed for which they pay a modest additional fee (a extra bandwidth tier, if you prefer that term .)



tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to Mike Wolf

said by Mike Wolf:

I would rather Comcast just increase the speed of each tier at no charge. Free speed upgrades for everyone!!

I believe that will happen, once/if ComCast can reach the point that they are reasonably confident that the vast majority of their users can recieve full speeds 24/7 under normal circumstances and (virtually)all areas have D3 speed tiers available .
I believe we are getting closer to that point, but that is a rapidly moving target as average usage increases even if the top end is constricted.


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

1 recommendation

reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

DOCSIS 3 solved that problem, and Comcast has no problem finding unlimited capacity for its Xbox service.

I see 2 problems with this specific statement.

1) The DOCSIS 3 rollout provided a temporary increase in capacity over demand, the same way that 640K DSL provided a temporary increase over demand with dial-up users a decade ago. It only "solved" the problem if you believe that demand will not continue to grow.

2) The Xbox video service is a closed environment with tightly controlled content availability. Having "unlimited" access to a video ecosystem with limited content isn't the same thing as having unlimited access to the public Internet.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3
reply to telcodad

Let's not forget that Comcast is doing this same video type service with TiVo's, which also connect to the internet to access these videos so who knows how this is going to affect everything.


psiu

join:2004-01-20
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Comcast
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to telcodad

I voted for raise the cap...I know that from a technical standpoint, this is not needed (would prefer more of a throttling at peak hours to sustained downloads but whatever). If they want to put a cap on it to have it on people's minds, that's fine. However it should steadily grow every year to keep pace with increasingly heavy (and in general, more frequent) data needs.
--

--psiu



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7

said by psiu:

However it should steadily grow every year to keep pace with increasingly heavy (and in general, more frequent) data needs.

While the idea of a "Cost of Living" raise each year for the data cap(s) crossed my mind also, the ability to raise it is not tied to rising customer data needs, but to how much extra capacity Comcast has been able to build to keep up with it!

Once they are able to double the capacity of the HSI plant, then they could then also double the cap(s).


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7
reply to espaeth

said by espaeth:

said by telcodad:

DOCSIS 3 solved that problem, and Comcast has no problem finding unlimited capacity for its Xbox service.

I see 2 problems with this specific statement.

1) The DOCSIS 3 rollout provided a temporary increase in capacity over demand, the same way that 640K DSL provided a temporary increase over demand with dial-up users a decade ago. It only "solved" the problem if you believe that demand will not continue to grow.

2) The Xbox video service is a closed environment with tightly controlled content availability. Having "unlimited" access to a video ecosystem with limited content isn't the same thing as having unlimited access to the public Internet.

Actually, that was not my quote, but that of Phillip Dampier of Stopthecap.com.

1) Agreed, but the digital migration freed up some spectrum for Comcast to add some more HSI QAMs as well as HDTV ones.

2) Still, Xbox VoD users may stream just as "hard" as Netflix customers. I have asked if anyone knows what the bit rate is for the Xbox VoD app. I believe a Netflix HD stream uses about 2GB an hour.


csiemers

join:2000-09-16
Portland, OR
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to SpottedCat

said by SpottedCat:

At the very least make it 500GB for the higher end tiers; it'll be hard for even a complete family to hit that unless they're Blackbeard-level media pirates.

That's funny, this family of three with streaming (netflix and korean tv) and gaming routinely does 600GB+, all legit. (I'm on Comcast Business with no caps.)

I voted to remove the cap completely.
--
»www.caryontech.com


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7

said by csiemers:

said by SpottedCat:

At the very least make it 500GB for the higher end tiers; it'll be hard for even a complete family to hit that unless they're Blackbeard-level media pirates.

That's funny, this family of three with streaming (netflix and korean tv) and gaming routinely does 600GB+, all legit. (I'm on Comcast Business with no caps.)

I voted to remove the cap completely.

Yeah, well, how many in your family at least wear an eye-patch then?

I know there are many legit apps that are data "hungry."

One thing to check though, is if one or more of your PCs is not infected by a virus/trojan that could be stealthily using a lot of bandwidth.


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to csiemers

But the measure isn't what YOU want, but what ComCast sells.
Some perfectly legit uses COULD greatly exceed the cap (go business/commercial/metroE/dedicated line, whatever is AVAILABLE to you the meet your needs.)
What CC residential sells is 250GB at speed X.


djcrazy
Premium
join:2009-08-05
Minneapolis, MN
Reviews:
·Comcast
·T-Mobile US

4 edits
reply to telcodad

I did not vote because there are a few I would agree with.

I think it should be like this:

Economy -- 100GB
Performance -- 250GB
Blast! -- 500GB
Extreme 50 -- 1TB
Extreme 105 -- 2TB

And any overages should be billed linear to the base service. In other words if I was on Blast and used 550 GB of data, the overage of 50 GB would be billed at 10% ( the 10% comes from being 10% over the stated cap.) of the base price for Blast. In this case Blast is $58.95 so the overage charge would be $5.89 (or $5.90 if you round up). I believe this would totally be fair with respect to the customer and the company as well.

Sure, we would all prefer the cap to be removed but let's be realistic here, that costs the company more to provide. With this scenario, the company is making at least as much per GB (actually slightly more since the basic costs of providing the service are already paid by the base rate). I believe this is totally reasonable.

Sure, one could still get a business account, but that usually requires a contract and more install fees. This idea is a way for users to get what they want and let the company , who needs to make a profit, to still make money, without the headaches of setting up a business account or risking disconnection or outrageous overage fees.

That's just slightly under 12 cents per GB of overage which I believe is totally reasonable here. I actually could see some executives at Comcast reading this and maybe even putting it up on the table for consideration.

There should be an optional account setting to enable this feature, and when disabled, the connection gets throttled back to 128 Kb without overage fees after crossing the threshold and continues until the start of the new month (or billing cycle, which would be preferred.). The metering scenario would be much better if it was measured throughout the billing cycle rather than calendar month IMHO.

Bitch all you want about the cap, but why should Comcast just drop it? It is unfair to have that as the only option and I can see why any talks with Comcast upper level management would fail. My suggestion here is a much better compromise as it's give and take and actually gives the provider something to consider.

As overall average usage per customer goes up, then they should consider adjusting the cap up as necessary.



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

reply to telcodad

They could uncap everything inside their network, leave the 250GB cap for anything arriving/leaving their network, since that's the new choke point post docsis3 (»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering - is fair when traffic is roughly equal in both directions - which it isn't when the traffic is mostly one way - like Netflix.)

Then everyone would scream about net neutrality. Like with the xbox. Even though essentially content sources like Netflix are asking all comcast subs to subsidize the comcast users who also are netflix users, and stream more than 250GB of netflix a month.

Or, if you prefer, the backup providers like carbonite are asking grandma using 5 GB a month on email and the web to subsidize bob next door backing up 3TB of data a month.

Yeah, that sounds fair

Pure metered billing is the answer. Everyone pays for exactly what they use. We can see how much people LOVE that just by looking at AT&T Wireless.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

Right now, Comcast Business HSI is still unlimited. Does that IP traffic use the facilities and HSI QAMs that residential users in the same neighboring areas use?

Yep. And business users pay dramatically more for the same speeds, especially at the higher tiers.

And business users (like me) while not worrying about caps, often use less than the cap per month. My average over three years is under 200GB/mo, and I serve three websites and provide email for 10 users on my 12/2 account (along with "residential" type use for 3 people, including netflix streaming...)
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

GTFan

join:2004-12-03
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

Pure metered billing is the answer. Everyone pays for exactly what they use. We can see how much people LOVE that just by looking at AT&T Wireless.

No, the answer is actually mandated common carrier status and open access to all comers, with a Chinese wall between content delivery and infrastructure. So we can have a choice between providers and their use of caps, in other words.
But we both know this will never happen, so metered billing is our future! Gotta love the corporatocracy...


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7
reply to djcrazy

OK, rather than just "make up" the variable cap values for each tier, I decided to do some actual calculations to try and make them fair relative to each other.

I used the following logic:

Assuming that each tier gets to use their sustained downstream rate for the same amount of time each month, and that the current 250GB/mo. data cap is OK for the highest, current, Economy tier rate (3M/768K), I calculated that at a steady 375KB/s rate, you would reach 250GB in 8 days.

Figuring that there would also be some upstream data during that time, I decided to go with a figure of 7 days at the downstream rate, about 25% of the time each month, or an average of about 6 hours a day. That seemed reasonable to me.

Using the sustained, DOCSIS 3.0 rates listed in the DSLR's Comcast HSI FAQ »Comcast High Speed Internet FAQ »What are the actual Provisioned Speeds? (thanks Johkal!), I came up with the following tier caps:

Speed Tier -- Monthly Data Cap

Economy (3M/768K) -- 250GB

Performance (12/2) -- 1TB

Blast! (20/4) -- 1.75TB (round it up to 2TB for a nice number)

Extreme 50 (50/10) -- 4.5TB (5TB)

Extreme 105 (105/10or15) -- 9.5TB (10TB)

If you want to assume a different cap for the Economy tier, then the tier speed ratios are 1 / 4.4 / 7.33 / 18.33 / 38.66.

So, if the Economy tier is capped at only 100GB, as djcrazy suggested, the Performance tier cap could then be 400GB, Blast 700GB, Ex50 2TB and Ex105 4TB.



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

said by telcodad:

Speed Tier -- Monthly Data Cap

Economy (3M/768K) -- 250GB

Performance (12/2) -- 1TB

Blast! (20/4) -- 1.75TB (round it up to 2TB for a nice number)

Extreme 50 (50/10) -- 4.5TB (5TB)

Extreme 105 (105/10or15) -- 9.5TB (10TB)

Those are fine, but you will need to scale WAY up the monthly fee for every tier that isn't 250GB. The non-linear premium for business class is +$10 to $15 for performance up to +$200 for Extreme 105

Those extra charges are in part to offset the added expense of the expected bandwidth consumption.

The current residential plans are not priced to reflect higher usage at the different tiers. If they were, they would look a lot like the business class prices.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7

said by JohnInSJ:

Those are fine, but you will need to scale WAY up the monthly fee for every tier that isn't 250GB. The non-linear premium for business class is +$10 to $15 for performance up to +$200 for Extreme 105

Those extra charges are in part to offset the added expense of the expected bandwidth consumption.

The current residential plans are not priced to reflect higher usage at the different tiers. If they were, they would look a lot like the business class prices.

Wait, so you're saying that a residential Extreme 105 user, who is paying over 6X more a month than an Economy one, should not expect to be able to use alot more bandwidth/data?

Remember, when buying most items in quantity, the prices do not usually scale up linearly, but much slower rate (e.g., 1@$2, 3@$5, 10@$10, etc.).

So I don't see a problem understanding having a tier with a speed/cap that is 40X higher while "only" paying about 6X more.

That is just a merchant's way of encouraging customers to spend more, and reflects the lower differential cost in providing more to the same customer (i.e., a Taxi ride being like $5 for the first mile, $2 a mile after that).

If the issue is total network capacity, then I say to Comcast, don't offer/sell what you can't support!


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

1 recommendation

reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

They could uncap everything inside their network, leave the 250GB cap for anything arriving/leaving their network, since that's the new choke point post docsis3

Even with DOCSIS 3 your building blocks are still 38mbps downstream channels and 27mbps upstream channels. Traffic entering or leaving the network can be built out using 10/40/100gbps links.

The chokepoint is still at the edge.


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to telcodad

The speed tier charges are justifable as higher speeds mean less concurrent users per channel.
you are not paying more for additional bandwidth.
on business tiers part of the extra cost goes towards additional bandwidth part for additional support costs.
BTW Business tiers are a bargain right now (building market share?) I wouldn't be supprised to see their rates rise faster than residential in the near future.



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

said by JohnInSJ:

Those are fine, but you will need to scale WAY up the monthly fee for every tier that isn't 250GB. The non-linear premium for business class is +$10 to $15 for performance up to +$200 for Extreme 105

Those extra charges are in part to offset the added expense of the expected bandwidth consumption.

The current residential plans are not priced to reflect higher usage at the different tiers. If they were, they would look a lot like the business class prices.

Wait, so you're saying that a residential Extreme 105 user, who is paying over 6X more a month than an Economy one, should not expect to be able to use alot more bandwidth/data?

Yes. I am saying the prices reflect the speed difference, not the size of the gas tank. A business class Extreme 105 user pays 3X a residential Extreme 105 user - why do you think that is so?
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to espaeth

said by espaeth:

said by JohnInSJ:

They could uncap everything inside their network, leave the 250GB cap for anything arriving/leaving their network, since that's the new choke point post docsis3

Even with DOCSIS 3 your building blocks are still 38mbps downstream channels and 27mbps upstream channels. Traffic entering or leaving the network can be built out using 10/40/100gbps links.

The chokepoint is still at the edge.

But comcast controls the costs there with congestion management. They can only control the peer usage lopsided relationship and flawed business models of content providers like Netflix via caps. Or usage based pricing.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by telcodad:

said by JohnInSJ:

Those are fine, but you will need to scale WAY up the monthly fee for every tier that isn't 250GB. The non-linear premium for business class is +$10 to $15 for performance up to +$200 for Extreme 105

Those extra charges are in part to offset the added expense of the expected bandwidth consumption.

The current residential plans are not priced to reflect higher usage at the different tiers. If they were, they would look a lot like the business class prices.

Wait, so you're saying that a residential Extreme 105 user, who is paying over 6X more a month than an Economy one, should not expect to be able to use alot more bandwidth/data?

Yes. I am saying the prices reflect the speed difference, not the size of the gas tank. A business class Extreme 105 user pays 3X a residential Extreme 105 user - why do you think that is so?

I thought Business Class HSI service was more expensive not only because it has no data cap, but because of its much better Quality of Service (QoS), with its separate dedicated support group (and different support telephone number) and much shorter response/repair times. That's why I would think "a business class Extreme 105 user would pay 3X what a residential Extreme 105 user does."

What I think you are trying to say is that speed is not the same as the total amount of data.

And that is true. As an electrical engineer, I know that power is not the same as energy.

But what you are saying Comcast is doing is kind of like paying the electric company more to upgrade your service from 100 Amps to 200 Amps (more power), in order to be able to run your new, more powerful, central A/C system, and then having them tell you that you still can't use any more Kilowatt-Hours (energy) than you did before.

So now you can only run that new central A/C system for only 12 hours each day. If you try to use it more, the electric company then calls you an "energy hog" and berates you for "degrading the service to all of your neighbors."

I would then say to them "but why did you offer/sell me 200 Amp service if you won't let me use it! Don't blame me if you haven't upgraded the generators and/or electric cables to now support it!

Having a higher-speed data link only invites more usage, as when you can do things faster you often do more of it.

That's what's happening right now with many iPad users who have upgraded to the "New iPad" with 4G LTE service. Since they can now web surf, etc. faster, they're doing more of it and running into their plan's data cap (which was never an issue for them before).


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast

your car can likely far exceed the speed limit, why did they sell you one?
your 200 amp service implies a higher peak load, but the heating or cooling of your home still requires moving the same BTU for the same tempature change.

you can buy beef from $2 to $100 a pound, the higher price is taster and tender but a pound is still 16 ounces.

sending 70 pounds via parcel post takes longer than 70 pounds via Fedex overnight and is priced differently.

what other consumable would you expect to use more of without paying more for?

As I said before, ComCast sells a higher level of bandwidth marketed at a higher price as Business class for those that think they need more.

The iPad problem lies with some other provider, ComCast does some wi-fi but no LTE.



telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7

1 edit

1 recommendation

said by tshirt:

your car can likely far exceed the speed limit, why did they sell you one?

your 200 amp service implies a higher peak load, but the heating or cooling of your home still requires moving the same BTU for the same tempature change.

you can buy beef from $2 to $100 a pound, the higher price is taster and tender but a pound is still 16 ounces.

sending 70 pounds via parcel post takes longer than 70 pounds via Fedex overnight and is priced differently.

what other consumable would you expect to use more of without paying more for?

As I said before, ComCast sells a higher level of bandwidth marketed at a higher price as Business class for those that think they need more.

The iPad problem lies with some other provider, ComCast does some wi-fi but no LTE.

Be careful with your analogies.

The car manufacturers/dealers don't set the speed limits. On the autobahn in Germany you can drive it as fast as it is safe. Are you saying that Comcast shouldn't lease you a DOCSIS 3 modem if your system doesn't have channel bonding yet?

Yes, the 200 Amp service does allow me to turn on more equipment at the same time, but there is still an expectancy that I can use them whenever I want, and only worry about the size of electric bill (whoops, but that's metering!).

Yes, sometimes there are power shortages during peak usage days, and the electric company then asks people to cut their usage.

That happens because though everyone may have 200 Amp service, normally they are not all using a large amount of current at the same time, and statistically the network can handle it. But on hot days, everyone starts turning on their A/Cs and having them run longer duty-cycles, so the network is strained. If this starts happening more frequently, then the electric company needs to improve their system, or stop hooking up more customers.

Yes, a tastier cut of meat is more expensive, like a better QoS - that's why Business Class costs more than residential.

The same goes for Fedex vs. Parcel Post, but now you are also talking speed. However, does Fedex limit how many boxes you can ship each day? If they start getting overwhelmed with shipments, then they need to either add more planes and trucks, or stop taking packages.

I thought my example with the New iPad with a faster data link clearly showed that giving people more speed only leads them into using more data.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

Pure metered billing is the answer. Everyone pays for exactly what they use. We can see how much people LOVE that just by looking at AT&T Wireless.

Unfortunately, it will most likely end up that way. That's the way most utilities (electric, natural gas, water, etc.) are.

However, some utilities, like land-line telephone, have gone the other way, when once you may have paid for the distance and duration of each phone call, now most local and continental LD service is unlimited.

Why did that happen? Heavy competition in the land-line telephone market (first in Long Distance, then later in local).

Otherwise the usage issue with cable HSI is similar to telephone (except everyone had their own copper loop to the telco office, like FiOS fibers) with more people talking more often possibly straining the telephone system. Making it unlimited for a set price only encouraged more use!

Cable was (and in many places still is) a franchised utility-like service. However, with telco DSL (like AT&T U-verse), Satellite TV (DirecTV and Dish), Verizon FiOS, etc. there is much more competiiton now.

Given how Comcast is acting, however, I guess there just isn't enough of it yet. Only Verizon's FiOS, which still has only limited availablity, can match Comcast in residential HSI speeds.


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to telcodad

said by telcodad:

Be careful with your analogies.

Now I believe you are being deliberately obtuse.
I'm done with this thread.


telcodad

join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:7

said by tshirt:

said by telcodad:

Be careful with your analogies.

Now I believe you are being deliberately obtuse.
I'm done with this thread.

Sorry that you feel that way. I just explained why I thought your analogies didn't fit this case.

I guess we just see things differently on this. Otherwise I enjoy (and agree with) most of your posts.

KevTech
Premium
join:2002-08-22
Seattle, WA
reply to telcodad

This is another waste of space thread just like....»[Caps] Please sign the petition to raise or eliminate the cap

Cap is not going away anytime soon if ever.



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage

said by KevTech:

This is another waste of space thread just like....»[Caps] Please sign the petition to raise or eliminate the cap

Cap is not going away anytime soon if ever.

The phrase "just like" is apt since this thread is simply a continuation of what got the other thread locked.
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.