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JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to telcodad

Re: [Caps] What do you think Comcast should do now about its dat

said by telcodad:

said by JohnInSJ:

Those are fine, but you will need to scale WAY up the monthly fee for every tier that isn't 250GB. The non-linear premium for business class is +$10 to $15 for performance up to +$200 for Extreme 105

Those extra charges are in part to offset the added expense of the expected bandwidth consumption.

The current residential plans are not priced to reflect higher usage at the different tiers. If they were, they would look a lot like the business class prices.

Wait, so you're saying that a residential Extreme 105 user, who is paying over 6X more a month than an Economy one, should not expect to be able to use alot more bandwidth/data?

Yes. I am saying the prices reflect the speed difference, not the size of the gas tank. A business class Extreme 105 user pays 3X a residential Extreme 105 user - why do you think that is so?
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to espaeth
said by espaeth:

said by JohnInSJ:

They could uncap everything inside their network, leave the 250GB cap for anything arriving/leaving their network, since that's the new choke point post docsis3

Even with DOCSIS 3 your building blocks are still 38mbps downstream channels and 27mbps upstream channels. Traffic entering or leaving the network can be built out using 10/40/100gbps links.

The chokepoint is still at the edge.

But comcast controls the costs there with congestion management. They can only control the peer usage lopsided relationship and flawed business models of content providers like Netflix via caps. Or usage based pricing.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:

said by telcodad:

said by JohnInSJ:

Those are fine, but you will need to scale WAY up the monthly fee for every tier that isn't 250GB. The non-linear premium for business class is +$10 to $15 for performance up to +$200 for Extreme 105

Those extra charges are in part to offset the added expense of the expected bandwidth consumption.

The current residential plans are not priced to reflect higher usage at the different tiers. If they were, they would look a lot like the business class prices.

Wait, so you're saying that a residential Extreme 105 user, who is paying over 6X more a month than an Economy one, should not expect to be able to use alot more bandwidth/data?

Yes. I am saying the prices reflect the speed difference, not the size of the gas tank. A business class Extreme 105 user pays 3X a residential Extreme 105 user - why do you think that is so?

I thought Business Class HSI service was more expensive not only because it has no data cap, but because of its much better Quality of Service (QoS), with its separate dedicated support group (and different support telephone number) and much shorter response/repair times. That's why I would think "a business class Extreme 105 user would pay 3X what a residential Extreme 105 user does."

What I think you are trying to say is that speed is not the same as the total amount of data.

And that is true. As an electrical engineer, I know that power is not the same as energy.

But what you are saying Comcast is doing is kind of like paying the electric company more to upgrade your service from 100 Amps to 200 Amps (more power), in order to be able to run your new, more powerful, central A/C system, and then having them tell you that you still can't use any more Kilowatt-Hours (energy) than you did before.

So now you can only run that new central A/C system for only 12 hours each day. If you try to use it more, the electric company then calls you an "energy hog" and berates you for "degrading the service to all of your neighbors."

I would then say to them "but why did you offer/sell me 200 Amp service if you won't let me use it! Don't blame me if you haven't upgraded the generators and/or electric cables to now support it!

Having a higher-speed data link only invites more usage, as when you can do things faster you often do more of it.

That's what's happening right now with many iPad users who have upgraded to the "New iPad" with 4G LTE service. Since they can now web surf, etc. faster, they're doing more of it and running into their plan's data cap (which was never an issue for them before).


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
your car can likely far exceed the speed limit, why did they sell you one?
your 200 amp service implies a higher peak load, but the heating or cooling of your home still requires moving the same BTU for the same tempature change.

you can buy beef from $2 to $100 a pound, the higher price is taster and tender but a pound is still 16 ounces.

sending 70 pounds via parcel post takes longer than 70 pounds via Fedex overnight and is priced differently.

what other consumable would you expect to use more of without paying more for?

As I said before, ComCast sells a higher level of bandwidth marketed at a higher price as Business class for those that think they need more.

The iPad problem lies with some other provider, ComCast does some wi-fi but no LTE.


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15

1 edit

1 recommendation

said by tshirt:

your car can likely far exceed the speed limit, why did they sell you one?

your 200 amp service implies a higher peak load, but the heating or cooling of your home still requires moving the same BTU for the same tempature change.

you can buy beef from $2 to $100 a pound, the higher price is taster and tender but a pound is still 16 ounces.

sending 70 pounds via parcel post takes longer than 70 pounds via Fedex overnight and is priced differently.

what other consumable would you expect to use more of without paying more for?

As I said before, ComCast sells a higher level of bandwidth marketed at a higher price as Business class for those that think they need more.

The iPad problem lies with some other provider, ComCast does some wi-fi but no LTE.

Be careful with your analogies.

The car manufacturers/dealers don't set the speed limits. On the autobahn in Germany you can drive it as fast as it is safe. Are you saying that Comcast shouldn't lease you a DOCSIS 3 modem if your system doesn't have channel bonding yet?

Yes, the 200 Amp service does allow me to turn on more equipment at the same time, but there is still an expectancy that I can use them whenever I want, and only worry about the size of electric bill (whoops, but that's metering!).

Yes, sometimes there are power shortages during peak usage days, and the electric company then asks people to cut their usage.

That happens because though everyone may have 200 Amp service, normally they are not all using a large amount of current at the same time, and statistically the network can handle it. But on hot days, everyone starts turning on their A/Cs and having them run longer duty-cycles, so the network is strained. If this starts happening more frequently, then the electric company needs to improve their system, or stop hooking up more customers.

Yes, a tastier cut of meat is more expensive, like a better QoS - that's why Business Class costs more than residential.

The same goes for Fedex vs. Parcel Post, but now you are also talking speed. However, does Fedex limit how many boxes you can ship each day? If they start getting overwhelmed with shipments, then they need to either add more planes and trucks, or stop taking packages.

I thought my example with the New iPad with a faster data link clearly showed that giving people more speed only leads them into using more data.


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:

Pure metered billing is the answer. Everyone pays for exactly what they use. We can see how much people LOVE that just by looking at AT&T Wireless.

Unfortunately, it will most likely end up that way. That's the way most utilities (electric, natural gas, water, etc.) are.

However, some utilities, like land-line telephone, have gone the other way, when once you may have paid for the distance and duration of each phone call, now most local and continental LD service is unlimited.

Why did that happen? Heavy competition in the land-line telephone market (first in Long Distance, then later in local).

Otherwise the usage issue with cable HSI is similar to telephone (except everyone had their own copper loop to the telco office, like FiOS fibers) with more people talking more often possibly straining the telephone system. Making it unlimited for a set price only encouraged more use!

Cable was (and in many places still is) a franchised utility-like service. However, with telco DSL (like AT&T U-verse), Satellite TV (DirecTV and Dish), Verizon FiOS, etc. there is much more competiiton now.

Given how Comcast is acting, however, I guess there just isn't enough of it yet. Only Verizon's FiOS, which still has only limited availablity, can match Comcast in residential HSI speeds.


tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:5
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to telcodad
said by telcodad:

Be careful with your analogies.

Now I believe you are being deliberately obtuse.
I'm done with this thread.


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
said by tshirt:

said by telcodad:

Be careful with your analogies.

Now I believe you are being deliberately obtuse.
I'm done with this thread.

Sorry that you feel that way. I just explained why I thought your analogies didn't fit this case.

I guess we just see things differently on this. Otherwise I enjoy (and agree with) most of your posts.

KevTech
Premium
join:2002-08-22
Seattle, WA
reply to telcodad
This is another waste of space thread just like....»[Caps] Please sign the petition to raise or eliminate the cap

Cap is not going away anytime soon if ever.


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
said by KevTech:

This is another waste of space thread just like....»[Caps] Please sign the petition to raise or eliminate the cap

Cap is not going away anytime soon if ever.

The phrase "just like" is apt since this thread is simply a continuation of what got the other thread locked.
--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to telcodad
said by telcodad:

I thought Business Class HSI service was more expensive not only because it has no data cap, but because of its much better Quality of Service (QoS), with its separate dedicated support group (and different support telephone number) and much shorter response/repair times.

Yep, that's a fixed cost difference between res and business... The remainder (and the reason the difference between res and business is nonlinear based on the speed tier) is due to the expected consumption differences.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
said by JohnInSJ:

said by telcodad:

I thought Business Class HSI service was more expensive not only because it has no data cap, but because of its much better Quality of Service (QoS), with its separate dedicated support group (and different support telephone number) and much shorter response/repair times.

Yep, that's a fixed cost difference between res and business... The remainder (and the reason the difference between res and business is nonlinear based on the speed tier) is due to the expected consumption differences.

Yes, that's true, businesses are expected to have more internet usage than a typical residence, for their office use.

I guess their websites are then hosted on a Comcast server. The internet access to those servers must be at a multi-Gbps rate and possibly asymmetrical the other way (higher on the upstream than downstream).


IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to telcodad
No analogies are necessary here, and they distract from the main issue.

Comcast has done several things to show that congestion is a canard and that its 250GB cap is prohibitively low for residential usage.

If the 250GB cap was really high enough (Not having been raised since October 2008), why would Comcast go out of its way to tell you that streaming to an XBox doesn't count against your usage cap. If hitting the cap wasn't an issue for all but the biggest data hog customers, which are supposedly less than 1% of users, why would Comcast say that so publicly for everyone to read?

Comcast has a real-time congestion management system... The 250GB cap does nothing to address real-time congestion. If there's no congestion, what's the problem? Comcast would have you believe there's one so that you use their Video-On-Demand services instead of conservatively using iTunes/Apple TV/Vudu/Netflix.

Comcast sells a business tier, for a nominal price increase....Starting at 59.95.... with no 250 GB cap. This price includes a whole bunch of goodies: Outlook mail, Sharepoint, Microsoft Cloud Services, Webhosting, 24x7 Business Class Support, which don't come with the residential tier. Is Comcast expecting me to believe that it can offer all these extras with no 250 GB Data Cap, for only a smidgen more than the residential tier? So if the price is nearly the same, I would postulate that data usage from these customers isn't an issue either. It also shows that the 250 GB Cap, which hasn't changed since October 2008 is completely arbitrary and designed to prevent cord cutting to Netflix/iTunes/AppleTV/Vudu by residential users.

Like I said years ago, with resolutions increasing (Apple TV now supporting 1080p for example) and file sizes getting bigger, 250 GB gets you less and less of the Internet every day.

Not fooling me Comcast. Not in the slightest.
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
Yes, I mostly agree.

While the cap may have originally been used to avoid speed slowdowns in the local cable plant (see the anti-cable FiOS commercials), with the wide deployment of DOCSIS 3.0 and the extra spectrum available now, from the digital migration, for more HSI QAM carriers (not all that freed B/W needed to go to HDTV/VoD), this is no longer an issue.

However, the current cap is keeping a lid on many heavy residential users, so if the cap was suddenly removed, the probable resulting spike in traffic may again cause speed slowdowns in many areas again.

That's why I'm in favor of speed-tier varying caps, or paying an extra fee to run higher/un-capped.

Of course, for the heaviest residential users, nothing is keeping them from getting uncapped right now by moving to Business Class HSI but a higher cost. Does Comcast restrict the number of Business Class HSI users per HSI node?

There is a good article on the Digital Trends site about ISP data caps:

Are bandwidth caps about easing congestion, or protecting television?
Digital Trends - February 16, 2012
»www.digitaltrends.com/computing/···evision/


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
said by telcodad:

There is a good article on the Digital Trends site about ISP data caps:

Are bandwidth caps about easing congestion, or protecting television?
Digital Trends - February 16, 2012
»www.digitaltrends.com/computing/···evision/

The fallacy of the "cap protects video" argument is that even without a cap the infrastructure simply doesn't exist to support even a 1% full-time conversion of people from traditional video to online-only delivery.

We've had this discussion here before: »Re: [Caps] the dreaded call - 1,817G


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
Thanks for the link to that thread, it was very informative. It was around a bit before I became a CHSI user last September, and it appears the "cap discussion" comes around periodically (this time triggered by the Xbox VoD app's cap exclusion).

I have a particular problem with at least one of the types of pro-cap arguments that is typically given, the "I/My whole family/Everyone I know doesn't come anywhere near the current 250GB data cap, so you must be doing something illegal with your HSI service" one.

That's like telling someone who has a very long, daily work commute that they must be drug running or bootlegging because they are putting 3000 miles on their car a month, because "most people" put less than a 1000 on theirs. The person obviously has a very legit reason for putting so much mileage on his car.

When people then see that, they then say "why don't you just switch to public transportation (Business Class)? Well, maybe they don't want to incur the higher cost of doing that or like riding in those types of vehicles (limited choice of modem).

The thing is, some residential HSI users have very legitimate reasons for using so much more data (frequent downloading of large application/game/multimedia files, on-line backups, etc.) that the average residential HSI user. Just telling them to "sign up for Business Class" isn't always the answer.

Having a way to increase your cap, by paying an extra fee, signing up for a more costly, higher-speed tier that has a higher cap, etc. I think would be a more acceptable solution.

Look, I don't come anywhere near the 250GB cap myself, but by Comcast excluding their new Xbox VoD app from the data cap, it just indicated to me, and many others, that the cap just "protects video" by limiting Comcast's competition.

Comcast's original excuse was that the VoD app's data was “being delivered over our private IP network and not the public Internet.” However, it still passes through the same local HFC plant. Once they realized that excuse would't fly, they changed it to "it's similar to traditional cable television service that is delivered to the set-top box" and the app essentially acts as an additional cable box." (see: »gigaom.com/video/comcast-xbox-faq-update/)

Some say the excuse is - "the Xbox VoD people/microsoft is paying them extra for that," then why can't Netflix users pay an extra fee to raise their cap?

Some people's rational is - "there are only a relatively few Xbox VoD users, their streaming traffic won't impact the local HSI plant much," but who's to say that the app won't take off and use grow to a significant amount, or that some areas may have a high-density of Xbox 360 users?

That's why I think this new app should cause Comcast to modify their current 250GB cap in some fashion, if only because it hasn't been changed in all this time, while the offered speeds and typical usage has since greatly increased.


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
said by telcodad:

Just telling them to "sign up for Business Class" isn't always the answer.

Having a way to increase your cap, by paying an extra fee, signing up for a more costly, higher-speed tier that has a higher cap, etc. I think would be a more acceptable solution.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Ignore the product labels for a minute and Comcast sells 2 major types of HSI service: One has a selection of available transfer rates, each has a 250GB cap, and adheres to a defined price schedule. The other also has a selection of transfer rates, has no cap, and has a higher price schedule.

said by telcodad:

Some people's rational is - "there are only a relatively few Xbox VoD users, their streaming traffic won't impact the local HSI plant much," but who's to say that the app won't take off and use grow to a significant amount, or that some areas may have a high-density of Xbox 360 users?

Have you read the reviews? The Reader's Digest version: "It's all the things available on demand with the cable boxes, just with lower video quality." Awesome. Sounds exactly like the type of service that is going to catch on like wildfire.


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
said by espaeth:

said by telcodad:

Just telling them to "sign up for Business Class" isn't always the answer.

Having a way to increase your cap, by paying an extra fee, signing up for a more costly, higher-speed tier that has a higher cap, etc. I think would be a more acceptable solution.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Ignore the product labels for a minute and Comcast sells 2 major types of HSI service: One has a selection of available transfer rates, each has a 250GB cap, and adheres to a defined price schedule. The other also has a selection of transfer rates, has no cap, and has a higher price schedule.

Yes, but there are other differences with Business Class, like restricted choice of modem.

Since the residential HSI would still be capped, I would expect that it would be somewhat less expensive for the same rate.

julian4

join:2011-04-24
Palm Beach, FL
As long the internet keeps slipping away into the dark reaches of the corporate realm, instead of being the medium it started out as.
We can barter with ourselves forever mercilessly about what a free medium should now cost.
I don't know why the internet is not utility now, in which you just pay to be hooked up to a national fiber structure, coast to coast, and everywhere in between, just like the electrical grid, with rates that are totally reasonable to all, and the same service to all. Maybe it should have a place in our property taxes, like the garbage collection service, like building roads. There is no one who can deny this scenario as a feasible means of service.
Comcast will NEVER give the people what is fair. (or any other provider for that matter) (Being content providers make it double trouble)


espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
reply to telcodad
said by telcodad:

Yes, but there are other differences with Business Class, like restricted choice of modem.

I'll bite: why would anyone care about this?


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
said by espaeth:

said by telcodad:

Yes, but there are other differences with Business Class, like restricted choice of modem.

I'll bite: why would anyone care about this?



--
We can never have enough of nature.
We need to witness our own limits transgressed, and some life pasturing freely where we never wander.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to telcodad
said by telcodad:

Yes, but there are other differences with Business Class, like restricted choice of modem.

Since the residential HSI would still be capped, I would expect that it would be somewhat less expensive for the same rate.

Two choices... static = SMC rental, dynamic = any residential supported modem. If you need static IPs you can probably justify the cost of the modem rental.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
Looking under the "Business Speed Tiers," on the approved devices list (»mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/), it looked like the only non-SMC modem listed was the Moto SB6120.

The (originally?) limited selection of modems was also discussed in this recent thread: »Customer-provided modems on Business Class


fonzbear2000
Premium
join:2005-08-09
Saint Paul, MN
reply to telcodad
I'm for throttling as long as they don't throttle too much. Maybe 1/4 of whatever speed tier you have.
--
»Music2pc-This program is AMAZING!


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
reply to espaeth
said by espaeth:

said by telcodad:

Some people's rational is - "there are only a relatively few Xbox VoD users, their streaming traffic won't impact the local HSI plant much," but who's to say that the app won't take off and use grow to a significant amount, or that some areas may have a high-density of Xbox 360 users?

Have you read the reviews? The Reader's Digest version: "It's all the things available on demand with the cable boxes, just with lower video quality." Awesome. Sounds exactly like the type of service that is going to catch on like wildfire.

Well, in this video demo of the app on the Light Reading Cable site today, Jeff Baumgartner says "the picture looks pretty good" to him.

Yes, it's not STB quality, but it will do for the kid's room, where they can use this instead of paying to lease another cable box and another "outlet fee."

Xfinity TV Meets the Xbox 360
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - April 2, 2012
Comcast's authenticated TV Everywhere recently debuted on Microsoft's IP-connected game console. Here's a brief look at the app in action
»www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?bl···r_cable&


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
reply to telcodad
OK, I think everyone has had a chance to vote on this now, so I have closed the poll.

It's not a surprise that the "totally remove it" choice got the most votes, yet that was only 21% of all votes cast.

Just "leaving the cap as it currently is" choice got only 7%, so it's clear that most voters would like to see it changed in some way.

The 3 choices that involved allowing it to be raised in some way received a total of 45% of the vote, and if you add to that the "totally remove it" vote, then it says 2/3 of the votes were for the cap to either be raised or removed.

I think at the least, the cap should be given a "Cost of Cyber-Living" increase of some amount, as since it was set at 250GB, there has been a large increase in the use of devices and apps that use a larger amount of data over a month's time.

I still like the idea of having the cap vary by speed tier myself, with the problem of just figuring out what to set it to for the lowest tier (Economy= 100GB?) and the highest one (Extreme 105 = 1TB?).


NickD
Premium
join:2000-11-17
Princeton Junction, NJ
reply to telcodad
There are plenty of people who use 500+ GB per month and don't even get a call. If you're torrenting in the overnight hours and use up a terabyte in a month, but barely use your connection during the day, that wouldn't hurt you.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to telcodad
said by telcodad:

It's not a surprise that the "totally remove it" choice got the most votes, yet that was only 21% of all votes cast.

Only 21% should switch to business class
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15
reply to telcodad
said by telcodad:

said by espaeth:

said by telcodad:

Some people's rational is - "there are only a relatively few Xbox VoD users, their streaming traffic won't impact the local HSI plant much," but who's to say that the app won't take off and use grow to a significant amount, or that some areas may have a high-density of Xbox 360 users?

Have you read the reviews? The Reader's Digest version: "It's all the things available on demand with the cable boxes, just with lower video quality." Awesome. Sounds exactly like the type of service that is going to catch on like wildfire.

Well, in this video demo of the app on the Light Reading Cable site today, Jeff Baumgartner says "the picture looks pretty good" to him.

Yes, it's not STB quality, but it will do for the kid's room, where they can use this instead of paying to lease another cable box and another "outlet fee."

Xfinity TV Meets the Xbox 360
By Jeff Baumgartner, Light Reading Cable - April 2, 2012
Comcast's authenticated TV Everywhere recently debuted on Microsoft's IP-connected game console. Here's a brief look at the app in action
»www.lightreading.com/blog.asp?bl···r_cable&

This excerpt from an article on the Planet Insane site also indicates that the "take-off" could be starting:

From: Comcast Xfinity Coming to Xbox Live
Planet Insane - Mar 30, 2012
»www.planetinsane.com/comcast-xfi···2629861/

"Microsoft also revealed that with the addition of the new apps for the Xbox 360 last December, Xbox Live usage has reportedly increased by 30 percent compared to the previous year. On the other hand, the use of entertainment apps also increased by over two-fold during the same period. An average of 84 hours each month is spent by US gold members on Xbox Live according to Microsoft.

Along with the increasing number of entertainment apps, [entertainment app] usage has reportedly overtaken usage for multiplayer games, which indicates that Xbox Live was being used in watching movies and TV shows. This shows that users are turning to Xbox Live for entertainment rather than simply playing games.

Additional apps will reportedly be added by Microsoft into Xbox Live within the year."


telcodad
Premium
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ
kudos:15

1 edit
reply to telcodad
OK, since it looks like we are done beating the topic of Data Caps to death once again, I will request the moderator now lock this thread.

You can see a listing of all the previous Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management topic threads (and now this one) in the first post of this thread: »The Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management Topic