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TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc to InvalidError

Premium Member

to InvalidError

Re: Cable companies' Review and Vary of 2011-703

No, it's impossible to do what they did. You should read the study CNOC submitted with its R&V. It explains it all pretty well. I can't find the link just off hand.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by TSI Marc:

No, it's impossible to do what they did. You should read the study CNOC submitted with its R&V. It explains it all pretty well. I can't find the link just off hand.

 
No, Marc - all it requires is a few rolls of B$ELL's loaded dice (substitute other incumbents' names as applicable), and then put those numbers in place of the ####s in their costing submissions.

Et Voila ! - Unfair rates.

BTW, guess where the dice are made ?

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc

Premium Member

Haha. No kidding. Transparency! That's the only real solution.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by TSI Marc:

Haha. No kidding. Transparency! That's the only real solution.

 
You mean transparent dice ?

How would THAT help ?

Ott_Cable
@teksavvy.com

Ott_Cable to TSI Marc

Anon

to TSI Marc
"to retain respect for sausages and laws, one must not watch them in the making." - famous epigram of Otto von Bismarck.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:

No, it's impossible to do what they did.

Unless usage patterns change drastically enough to invalidate models derived from them faster than they can be put to use, it is. Apart from singular events like implementation of off-peak unlimited or other substantial change in service such as incumbent-imposed caps to CBB (ex.: Videotron TPIA - drastic caps changes), I bet TSI's overall traffic continued to grow along generally predictable trends at a predictable and mostly uniform pace. Since Bell's models likely includes all wholesale, patterns they based their conversion on should be more stable than TSI's own.

The models for UBB may be more volatile due to extra variables (pricing may require more frequent adjustments) but it still works. The only difference is medium/long-term rate stability... but with current rates being in on-going disputes, even short-term rates are uncertain.

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc

Premium Member

It's all changing at a very fast rate. What can usage at 4am possibly have anything to do with peak usage? Rate of change per year is anywhere between 30% to 50%... Their DPI boxes are in there messing around with stuff too. Was this done before or after Netflix launched? It's just impossible.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

said by TSI Marc:

What can usage at 4am possibly have anything to do with peak usage?

You underestimate "Geek Power"...

Conditioning Geeks to live in the wee hours of the morning to avoid evening peak will result in the peak hours shifting to the wee hours because Geeks are the ones who cause all the congestion with their big Linux ISO downloads.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError to TSI Marc

Member

to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:

Rate of change per year is anywhere between 30% to 50%...

You are confusing usage patterns with traffic growth.

Patterns are the proportions and timing people do stuff in. My usage can grow even if I maintain the exact same usage patterns year after year simply because web pages are becoming more complex, files are getting bigger, bit rates and resolutions on streaming media are increasing, etc. An increase in volume does not necessarily indicate a change in patterns.

Costs would increase by 30-50%/year regardless of whether you pick UBB or CBB because that growth still follows current patterns unless you artificially break them by introducing stuff like off-peak.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to jfmezei

Premium Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

You underestimate "Geek Power"...

Conditioning Geeks to live in the wee hours of the morning to avoid evening peak will result in the peak hours shifting to the wee hours because Geeks are the ones who cause all the congestion with their big Linux ISO downloads.

 
Then you mean ANGELO-Power !

What, can you not pronounce HIS name now ?

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc to jfmezei

Premium Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

said by TSI Marc:

What can usage at 4am possibly have anything to do with peak usage?

You underestimate "Geek Power"...

Conditioning Geeks to live in the wee hours of the morning to avoid evening peak will result in the peak hours shifting to the wee hours because Geeks are the ones who cause all the congestion with their big Linux ISO downloads.

The Geeks are no longer the problem. I mean, we are giving those incentives to do that, we are not charging for any usage at those hours. It's all the video streaming. People are watching Netflix, youtube and AppleTV and whatever else they want to and they all want to watch it when they want to watch it. Peak network activity is at 10pm-ish. I can see that in the future devices will be able to schedule downloads at off-peak hour times but in general the geeks are more and more not the primary downloaders. There are numerous reports from sandvine, Cisco and the like that say that 60% of all traffic at peak is video streaming. People are not going to stay up until 4am to watch their movies.
TSI Marc

TSI Marc to InvalidError

Premium Member

to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

said by TSI Marc:

Rate of change per year is anywhere between 30% to 50%...

You are confusing usage patterns with traffic growth.

Patterns are the proportions and timing people do stuff in. My usage can grow even if I maintain the exact same usage patterns year after year simply because web pages are becoming more complex, files are getting bigger, bit rates and resolutions on streaming media are increasing, etc. An increase in volume does not necessarily indicate a change in patterns.

Costs would increase by 30-50%/year regardless of whether you pick UBB or CBB because that growth still follows current patterns unless you artificially break them by introducing stuff like off-peak.

It's the patters that have changed and consequently the usage also. More people are streaming video at peak time. Web sites are still web sites. It's YouTube, Netflix and AppleTV that has changed they didn't exist 5 years ago. It's not peer to peer that's the big culprit any more. That's a big change in pattern.
resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON

resa1983

Premium Member

And of course, since its real-time, ISPs can't touch that traffic. So they really have no choice now but to finally get off their asses and upgrade hardware rather than relying on DPI.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by resa1983:

....So they [incumbent providers] really have no choice now but to finally get off their asses and upgrade hardware rather than relying on DPI.

 
Oh, so is THAT what's been troubling us these past few years at B$ELL and the other incumbents ?

But you're right.

The old 'UP-TO' (whatever speed of service) disclaimer cannot stand any more.

It just will not work under the new order of things.
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError

Member

said by Davesnothere:

The old 'UP-TO' (whatever speed of service) disclaimer cannot stand any more.

While they may not be throttling anymore, they can still let congestion run its course and since this can happen in unforeseen circumstances on top of the usual list of reasons, the "up to" will remain.

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by InvalidError:

....the "up to" will remain.

 
I expect full well that it WILL remain, but here and now we have even more compelling reasons than ever why it should not, due to today's increasingly widespread and prolific time-sensitive activities such as streamed vids....
InvalidError
join:2008-02-03

InvalidError

Member

said by Davesnothere:

I expect full well that it WILL remain, but here and now we have even more compelling reasons than ever why it should not, due to today's increasingly widespread and prolific time-sensitive activities such as streamed vids....

You do not need 30Mbps out of your "up to 30Mbps" access to watch a 6Mbps stream from Netflix. If it happens to only perform at 10Mbps at that time, you still have 4Mbps to spare and wouldn't notice if Netflix is the only thing you had going... there is a lot more margin for "upto-ism" on higher speed tiers where people are far less likely to require sustained peak rate.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

Do Canadian ISPs really see some AppleTV/Itunes traffic ? Considering how expensive Itunes is for content, I would think there would be very little of this happening.

Since this traffic is "download" instead of stream, then this would be quite different from Neflix.

And isn't youtube mostly download insted of streaming ? (perhaps not at your max download speed, but definitly faster than streaming speed).

What I would be interested in is how ISPs view downloads (short time at max speed) versus 2 hours of streaming at constant 5mbps.

Which has the most impact in the big picture ? Or are they statistically the same from network load once you have a large enough customer base ?

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to InvalidError

Premium Member

to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

You do not need 30Mbps out of your "up to 30Mbps" access to watch a 6Mbps stream from Netflix....

 
True, in MY current case, and I do not even subscribe to NF.

But just last year, I had only a 5Mb connection, and I do not envy the many who STILL do.

Yes, I know that they can view NF at lower res, but is it fair that they would be forced to do that, just to support the oversubcription ratios of their ISP and/or its upstream provider(s) ?

Bear in mind that I also know what your next response will be.
Davesnothere

Davesnothere to jfmezei

Premium Member

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

Do Canadian ISPs really see some AppleTV/Itunes traffic ? Considering how expensive Itunes is for content, I would think there would be very little of this happening.

Since this traffic is "download" instead of stream, then this would be quite different from Neflix....

 
So iTV sends the whole file before it begins to play the video ?

(I HAD heard before that iTunes did.)

YouTube gambles that the buffer which they create in your computer can stay ahead of the FlashPlayer delivering the content to your screen, and YMMV on that, IME.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

If you pause Youtube, it continues to download.

The iTunes product download at fastest possible speed. You might be able to start to play before download is done but it still downloads at full speed instead of streaming it.

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc

Premium Member

I use AppleTV at home. It also has Netflix built into it. If I rent a movie it asks if I want to watch it, if yes it starts downloading it as fast as it can. You can now rent 1080p movies on it. Works pretty good. Hard on the network though. There's no option to download late at night so I can watch it tomorrow. As soon as you start watching it you have 48 hours to watch the whole thing. Now that AppleTV is doing 1080p, I'm sure others will follow suit. Blockbuster is said to be working on their online stuff.. Google just started a music store online. CBC also if I'm not mistaken? Basically lots of content is being made available in all sorts of ways and people in general will want it when they generally want to view those contents..l with their families and in general in the evenings. On AppleTV I just noticed this new movie, it's called Detachment with Adrien Brode, it's an advanced viewing, I.e. it's on AppleTV before its out in theaters... That's a pretty big change!
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

AppleTV may be different because it doesn't have storage.

But if you use Itunes on your computer, it will download its own copy of the movie (with DRM limiting viewing for 48 hours) and you can then watch it on any device, any number of times.

TSI Marc
Premium Member
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON

TSI Marc

Premium Member

Right, of course. With the new iCloud though, you will surely be able to stream it from the cloud on any of your devices...

For what its worth, I just finished watching "A Dangerous Method" and it's now 4am. Hahaha. *shrug*
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

OK, I am putting then here even though Bell is not a cable company, It also R&Ved the 703 decision.
jfmezei

jfmezei

Premium Member

I'll post the Comments on the Rogers R&V later after I got some sleep. Didn't get to file on it.

I LOLd
@videotron.ca

I LOLd to jfmezei

Anon

to jfmezei
said by jfmezei:

OK, I am putting then here even though Bell is not a cable company, It also R&Ved the 703 decision.

Sounds like you adequately summed up what we discussed here.

Seems like you gave up writing half way through your filing lol I especially like this part (paraphrased):

*reference: The commission can contact me for it, I'm to f'n tired to include it.
I LOLd

I LOLd to jfmezei

Anon

to jfmezei
Good. Seems everyone is more or less stating what we stated here in regards to the bullshit "line conditioning".

I liked how CNOC start off their filing to the CRTC:

It starts off like this:

Dear CRTC:
Bell is gaming the system with inflated new costs and embellished arguments to fill their coffers for absolutely nothing. This is nothing new.

Best regards,

Bill of CNOC

heh, I wonder if that Bill guy laughs out loud when he reads his own filings? I would

+1

More LOLs
@videotron.ca

More LOLs to jfmezei

Anon

to jfmezei
Click for full size
MTS to the CRTC
This is getting better and better the more I read.

MTS even drew the CRTC a picture! I can't stop laughing at Bell.

BACONATOR26
Premium Member
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON

BACONATOR26

Premium Member

Telus looks dirt cheap in comparison (alongside MTS of course). That ought to ruffle a few feathers.