 SnowymIRC unix.ro UnderNetPremium join:2003-04-05 Kailua, HI kudos:6 Reviews:
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| reply to PX Eliezer
Re: In our State's defense... said by PX Eliezer:Under the proposed Arizona law, Franklin certainly would have been prosecuted for being "annoying". His whole point was to be annoying.
A law that outlaws being annoying---sounds like something that the Chinese Communist leadership would love. That's just simply not true. Because the proposal uses the word "annoy" you spin it into a law against being annoying. If the proposal is so onerous on it's own why make up BS about it? "to use any electronic or digital device and use any obscene, lewd or profane language or suggest any lewd or lascivious act, or threaten to inflict physical harm to the person or property of any person with the specific intention of scaring, annoying, or offending the person on the other end of such activity. It's not any type of annoying that would be codified. Here's a clue. Use obscene, lewd or profane language or suggest any lewd or lascivious act to annoy someone be careful because under the proposal you cannot do that with complete impunity. |
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 | reply to jaykaykay Here's an analysis: »www.mediacoalition.org/Arizona-H···c-Speech
Brief in PDF format: "On March 14, Media Coalition sent a memo to the Senate Rules Committee regarding constitutional infirmities in H.B. 2549".
From the brief: "We ask you to protect the First Amendment rights of all the people of Arizona and reject or amend H.B. 2549." |
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 PX EliezerPremium join:2008-08-09 Hutt River kudos:13 Reviews:
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| reply to Snowy said by Snowy:It's not any type of annoying that would be codified. Here's a clue. Use obscene, lewd or profane language or suggest any lewd or lascivious act to annoy someone be careful because under the proposal you cannot do that with complete impunity. That would require courts to determine what is obscene, lewd, profane, or lascivious. US courts have never been good at this.
Can [you] define those terms for me? Even the US Supreme Court has had trouble.
Or should we become like Canada, where their Charter of Rights and Freedoms has a big loophole:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. That's a BIG loophole, and free speech in Canada is not as fully protected as in the US.
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I certainly agree with this detailed objection to the Arizona proposal. Thanks to Frodo for the link.
H.B. 2549 would make it a crime to use any electronic or digital device to communicate using obscene, lewd or profane language or to suggest a lewd or lascivious act if done with intent to annoy, offend, harass or terrify. The legislation offers no definitions for annoy, offend, harass or terrify. Electronic or digital device is defined only as any wired or wireless communication device and multimedia storage device. Lewd and profane are not defined in the statute or by reference.
Government may criminalize speech that rises to the level of harassment and many have laws that do so, but this legislation reaches a much broader range of communication. H.B. 2549 is not limited to a one to one conversation between two specific people. It would apply to general communication on web sites, blogs, listserves and other Internet communication. The communication does not need to be repetitive or unwanted. There is no requirement that the recipient or subject of the speech actually feel offended, annoyed or scared. It is unclear if the communication must be intended to offend or annoy a specific person or if a general intent to do so is sufficient.
There are numerous recent examples of speech that was intended to be provocative that could be criminal under H.B. 2549. When a Danish newspaper posted pictures of Muhammad, they were intended to be offensive to Muslims to make a point about religion but this could be a crime if a Muslim in Arizona viewed the pictures online and considered them profane. Some Arizona residents may consider Rush Limbaughs recent comments about a Georgetown law student lewd. He could be prosecuted if he intended his comments to be offensive. Similarly, much general content available in the media uses racy or profane language and is intended to offend, annoy or even terrify. Bill Mahers stand up routines and Jon Stewarts nightly program, Ann Coulters books discussing liberals and Christopher Hitchens writing expressing his distaste for religion or Mother Theresa, Stephen Kings novels or the Halloween films all could be subject to this legislation. Even common banter online about sports between rival fans frequently is meant to offend or annoy and often done using salty and profane language.
While protecting people from harassment is a worthy goal, legislators cannot do so by criminalizing speech protected by the Constitution. All speech is presumptively protected by the First Amendment against content-based regulation, subject only to specific historic exceptions.
»mediacoalition.org/mediaimages/H···4.12.pdf |
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 jaykaykay4 Ever YoungPremium,MVM join:2000-04-13 Scottsdale, AZ kudos:22 | reply to Mele20 I am not hung up, as you say. I am well aware that bullying can take place anywhere and happens here too. I am simply hung up on the fact that ignoring it doesn't make it go away and that some are not capable of ignoring it with the thought that it will go away. Sometimes the damage is already done by the time a child gets old enough to reason. Bullying those that have no defense is where I am hung up. I have worked with way too many like that and the results aren't pretty. There are all kinds of ways to deal with the same subject, and for those that can, ignoring might be one of the things that can help...but not the only one. I am hung up on children first, and in doing everything in my power to see that they can grow up without adults saying "just ignore it and it will go away".
I am, and always have been, a child advocate. That's why i feel that this law is a start. Maybe it won't go anywhere, but just because we've done something before doesn't mean that that is how it should remain. Things change and when given an opportunity, it's never too late. Cyber bullying is something, drilling down into particulars, that I feel having something specific stated is a good thing...written well too. This law is not, but a start is a start. -- JKK
Age is a very high price to pay for my maturity. If I can't stay young, I can at least stay immature!
»www.pbase.com/jaykaykay
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 jvmorrisI Am The Man Who Was Not There.Premium,MVM join:2001-04-03 Reston, VA | reply to PX Eliezer I hate to point this out, but wouldn't certain cable or satellite TV movies or programs be vulnerable to the law as written? Or, is that okay because it's being done by a profit-making business? -- Regards, Joseph V. Morris |
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 BlackbirdBuilt for SpeedPremium join:2005-01-14 Fort Wayne, IN kudos:3 Reviews:
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| said by jvmorris:I hate to point this out, but wouldn't certain cable or satellite TV movies or programs be vulnerable to the law as written? Or, is that okay because it's being done by a profit-making business? Only if it could be proven that it was directed toward a specific individual with intent: quote: ...with the specific intention of scaring, annoying, or offending the person on the other end of such activity.
While the wording, as I've noted earlier, leaves a lot to be desired in terms of clarity, it appears that its intention is focused on one person intentionally and directly harassing another person via electronic means (replacing the law's earlier incarnation of applying to harrassment via telephonic means). Certain TV programs manage to offend a lot of folks without directly attempting to harass them...  -- "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775 |
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 StuartMWWho Is John Galt?Premium join:2000-08-06 Galt's Gulch kudos:2 Reviews:
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| reply to Blackbird
Re: In our State's defense... said by Blackbird:Certain TV programs manage to offend a lot of folks without directly attempting to harass them... 
Including one of my favorites It even offended me once (not an easy task).
(Look left for a hint ) -- Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow! |
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 | Re: In our State's defense... said by armed:I point out to you AGAIN this law already exists almost verbatim but is limited to telephonic communications. This is nothing but an attempt to expand it to written electronic communications. Unfortunately, that is not the case. In a telephone communication, the contact is one to one. But the proposed legislation does not limit the extension of the expansion to one to one communications. »www.mediacoalition.org/Arizona-H···c-Speech
The legislation has been halted. »northernarizonanews.com/blog/201···-slowed/
I guess we'll have to wait and see how they can construct the legislation so as to pass 1st amendment considerations. |
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 | reply to Frodo
Re: In our State's defense... AZ-HB-2549s |
said by Frodo:said by armed:I point out to you AGAIN this law already exists almost verbatim but is limited to telephonic communications. This is nothing but an attempt to expand it to written electronic communications. Unfortunately, that is not the case. armed (and Snowy earlier) is correct that this is an amendment legislation to revise the current statutes (and is even codified that way). The above shows the original with the amendments proposed.
»www.scribd.com/doc/88008589/AZ-H···islature
said by Frodo:In a telephone communication, the contact is one to one. But the proposed legislation does not limit the extension of the expansion to one to one communications. [snip]
True, your point about 1-to-1 communication however I see nothing in the original legislation that made 1-to-1 communication clear other than use the singular "a person" as the target (which I believe is your point) that would need clarifying for this purpose.
-Jim |
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1 edit | reply to armed
Re: In our State's defense... said by armed:said by StuartMW:said by jaykaykay:But why should something that can make a person so miserable have to be part of growing up? The answer is, it doesn't! This is where I disagree with the whole premise of the argument. IMO the purpose of any law is to protect peoples natural rights (life, liberty etc) not their feelings. No law can "protect" the latter. Apparently many in this thread feel the law really is and rightfully should be "the right of life, liberty and to bully and make others miserable if I so desire". Further it seems to grow into a more insidious permatation that "and those bullied shall have no right of defense as it interferes with my right to bully" This defense of the indefensible of "if you don't like being bullied then you must legally ignore it" is inane. Getting your cookies off by ignoring the impact on those who are bullied seems to show a lack of compassion that is growing daily like a cancer in this country. I understand the concern about limitations on freedom of speech but I think I should have the freedom to either react to bullying by force.. or if not then be protected from it by law. Apparently few here understand the impact of severe emotional abuse on those who suffer from it. Its almost always the male who is the last to comprehend its impact. Did you just call Stuart names to humiliate? I would be offended, but hey its alright, because we will soon have laws to stop your behavior. I am even offended by that remark about males being dumber than females. I hope we get a law here where I liver that is similar so I can get justice! -- When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football. |
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 LagzPremium join:2000-09-03 The Rock Reviews:
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| reply to StuartMW said by StuartMW:said by armed:Your argument is weak and missed the point. Fair enough. Our fundamental views are obviously very different and can't be reconciled. Hence why laws with vague wording need clarity. WAIT, did you just get bullied and insulted AGAIN? Maybe we do need this law in all 50 states. -- When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football. |
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 StuartMWWho Is John Galt?Premium join:2000-08-06 Galt's Gulch kudos:2 Reviews:
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1 edit | reply to Lagz said by Lagz:Did you just call Stuart names to humiliate?
I think so. Then again I've been called many names in my lifetime (usually by women...) I've even be told (and I'm sure many of my gender have) to die horrible deaths after breakups etc. Somehow, because I'm an unfeeling male I'm sure, I've survived. So far anyway.
But honestly

-- Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow! |
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| reply to Lagz
Re: In our State's defense... said by Lagz:Did you just call Stuart names to humiliate? I would be offended, but hey its alright, because we will soon have laws to stop your behavior. I am even offended by that remark about males being dumber than females. I hope we get a law here where I liver that is similar so I can get justice! Your misunderstanding of how the law will might work is disconnected from the reality of the FULL text of the proposal.
The law exists today... do you know of anyone who has gone to jail or been fined in Arizona because they in a minor fashion insulted someone on the phone?
Are you really so lacking in compassion that you can't distinguish between constant bulling and day to day disagreements? |
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 SnowymIRC unix.ro UnderNetPremium join:2003-04-05 Kailua, HI kudos:6 Reviews:
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| reply to JALevinworth said by JALevinworth : armed (and Snowy earlier) is correct that this is an amendment legislation to revise the current statutes (and is even codified that way). This document effectively illustrates that point, nice find. On another level it also illustrates why this discussion exists. Hard copy being edited by hand that deals with online issues. Partly in, partly out, were just a the start of the digital age. We're riding into the digital age by the seat of our pants which is a blast on one hand but it does have it's drawbacks.
Beyond the infrastructure of Gore's pipes & tubes & the AUP's, TOS's we need laws to define what is acceptable in the digital world to society & what isn't, like it or not. To all but the most immature, society has decided that there isn't a 100% absolute right to free speech in the digital world. This proposal is attempting to further define what is & what isn't protected speech. Unlike many digital world issues that lack precedence this issue is being addressed by existing law covering acceptable telephone use. Their not totally analogous but close enough to use as a model. The books are just being written, in draft form if you will. Anyone with a better suggestion for the wording of any digital world legislation I'm sure any States legislature would be interested in seeing it. ps Blackbird was the first in this thread to point out the incorporation of existing telephone statute. |
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 AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium join:2003-02-06 Onion, NJ kudos:1 | said by Snowy:[ We're riding into the digital age by the seat of our pants which is a blast on one hand but it does have it's drawbacks.
we need laws to define what is acceptable in the digital world to society & what isn't, like it or not. why? why do we need government involved. Why doesn't the industry police itself? -- --Standard disclaimers apply.-- The preceding posting is null and void in Arizona and any other jurisdiction where prohibited by law. |
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