dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
10522

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo to telco_mtl

Member

to telco_mtl

Re: Basement wall insulation - Suggested R-value + vapor barrier

said by telco_mtl:

you probably have an air intake that goes to the cold air return, if thats the case your furnace has a conventional chimney and uses ambiant air for combustion, that vent to the outside balances the air used by your gas appliances. You are then getting a pretty good air exchange in the house and it is helping to keep the air dry in that basement. Its one of the reasons some brand new houses with electric heat have humidity issues and people like yourself and i with our combustion appliances, gas in your case, oil in mine, have to run humidifiers just to keep the floors from splitting

That makes sense, now that I think about it, there is a soft tube hanging opened in between the furnace and the hot water tank, it might be connected to that intake vent.

Though the furnace is high efficiency and uses those white plastic tubes to vent outside (Those that require a water pump to remove the condensation), so not the chimney.

That would explain as well why I have little to no condensation in my windows even after a very long steamy shower (Without a bathroom fan). I was used to very wet windows when I lived in the past (All electric baseboards).

Personally I'm happy, but my wife runs the humidifier at night in the bedroom to the maximum.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl

Member

said by alkizmo:

said by telco_mtl:

you probably have an air intake that goes to the cold air return, if thats the case your furnace has a conventional chimney and uses ambiant air for combustion, that vent to the outside balances the air used by your gas appliances. You are then getting a pretty good air exchange in the house and it is helping to keep the air dry in that basement. Its one of the reasons some brand new houses with electric heat have humidity issues and people like yourself and i with our combustion appliances, gas in your case, oil in mine, have to run humidifiers just to keep the floors from splitting

That makes sense, now that I think about it, there is a soft tube hanging opened in between the furnace and the hot water tank, it might be connected to that intake vent.

Though the furnace is high efficiency and uses those white plastic tubes to vent outside (Those that require a water pump to remove the condensation), so not the chimney.

That would explain as well why I have little to no condensation in my windows even after a very long steamy shower (Without a bathroom fan). I was used to very wet windows when I lived in the past (All electric baseboards).

Personally I'm happy, but my wife runs the humidifier at night in the bedroom to the maximum.

that soft tube may have been connected to the cold air return with your original furnace. kudos to you for the high efficiency furnace. i wish i had gas where i am!
and i feel you on the humidifier, my wife runs one too in the bedroom, i think women came from another planet looking for moisture, judging by the humidifiers and moisturizers!
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to alkizmo

Premium Member

to alkizmo
said by alkizmo:

I don't know. I wouldn't see why they'd do that in renovations as the client would pay up for material.

I think it's more of a reason of condensation/moisture dissipation.
But my basement was dry as a bone all winter. Then again it wasn't being inhabited.

The building code does not distinguish between new construction and renovations - if it says you have to put R20 in (or whatever) and a vapour barrier, then that's what you've got to do, using CCMC-approved* (or provincially approved) materials according to code (unless you are doing the work without a permit or there's no permit required for the work you're doing according to your provincial building code). Technically, ripping out/replacing old insulation in Ontario *requires* a permit & inspection -- but lots of people skip that - and lots of those people don't get a proper job done as a result.

It has ZERO to do with condensation/moisture dissipation. That's what HRV/ERV's do in tightly sealed homes. The more insulating and air sealing you do to an older home, the more likely you will need to also install an HRV/ERV && to replace your furnace & hot water tank with sealed direct-vented ones which get their combustion air directly from outside.

Home owners whose homes become tightly sealed over time via renovation and DON'T replace their
a) heating appliances and
b) add an HRV/ERV
are setting themselves up for 'sick building syndrome' at best and possibly death due to carbon monoxide poisoning.

Homes are a "system" and you can't air seal/insulate and forget about what happens to atmospheric (takes combustion air from inside the home) furnaces/water heaters/stoves that use open flame combustion. Installing sealed combustion, direct vented appliances and HRV/ERV helps get you around these issues.

I have seen homes renovated by homeowners or jackass know-nothing contractors where they install a 6-burner stove and gas oven and then stick a 1500 cfm exhaust hood over the stove. The stove is going full tilt to cook a holiday meal, the exhaust hood is on, and the atmospheric furnace and water heater are spilling out CO into the basement because they are starved for air due to incomplete combustion, and backdrafting due to the kitchen exhaust hood being on. People get headaches, chronic fatigue, and disorientation when exposed to low levels of CO over time. Higher concentrations lead to death. But since the renovations were just in the kitchen & bathrooms, nobody ever looked at the house as a system.

A cottage I built has a monster kitchen exhaust hood, but when I was building it I installed a make-up air intake which was interlocked via relays and other controls to the kitchen exhaust hood. The kitchen exhaust won't turn on until the intake signals that it is open. In the winter the intake also pre-heats the incoming air via an in-line radiator connected as a zone on the boiler. Do you think that the kitchen contractor did this? No. Do you think the average homeowner would ever contemplate this? No. I spec'd it (engineer here) because the house is a SYSTEM or inputs and outputs, and life-safety considerations.

BTW, the client always pays. The only question is to whom.

*Canadian Construction Materials Centre - the national testing/approval body in Canada
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl

Member

maynard, i know of a legion building in a montreal burb that went and replaced all their windows last year, since they did everytime the boilers start the fireplace backdrafts, people forget that their house is a system and everything affects everything.

speaking of insulation, quebec is working at making insulation a recognized trade within the province, while it may add another level of paperwork we will finally have some standards, all too often vapor barriers are installed in a non effective way or insulation not properly placed in walls
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to alkizmo

Premium Member

to alkizmo
Everyone, go look at »www.buildingscience.com

Disclosure: It's run by a friend of mine. Joe is THE guru on this stuff.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl

Member

maynard, my instructor when i took my inspection course told us to check that site out!

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo to telco_mtl

Member

to telco_mtl
said by telco_mtl:

maynard, i know of a legion building in a montreal burb that went and replaced all their windows last year, since they did everytime the boilers start the fireplace backdrafts, people forget that their house is a system and everything affects everything.

Wow, the windows being drafty was what kept the pressure balanced inside?
said by telco_mtl:

speaking of insulation, quebec is working at making insulation a recognized trade within the province, while it may add another level of paperwork we will finally have some standards, all too often vapor barriers are installed in a non effective way or insulation not properly placed in walls

Great, just another type of contractor people need to bring in for a renovation
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by alkizmo:

said by telco_mtl:

maynard, i know of a legion building in a montreal burb that went and replaced all their windows last year, since they did everytime the boilers start the fireplace backdrafts, people forget that their house is a system and everything affects everything.

Wow, the windows being drafty was what kept the pressure balanced inside?

Yep...that's pretty typical, especially with 20+ year-old atmospheric furnaces/boilers in the basement. Most older buildings have oversized (kW/Btu) heating appliances to compensate for lack of insulation & drafts due to poor air sealing of the building envelope, and oversized appliances suck a LOT of combustion air.

Seal the building up even a bit - et voila - shit happens.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl

Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by alkizmo:

said by telco_mtl:

maynard, i know of a legion building in a montreal burb that went and replaced all their windows last year, since they did everytime the boilers start the fireplace backdrafts, people forget that their house is a system and everything affects everything.

Wow, the windows being drafty was what kept the pressure balanced inside?

Yep...that's pretty typical, especially with 20+ year-old atmospheric furnaces/boilers in the basement. Most older buildings have oversized (kW/Btu) heating appliances to compensate for lack of insulation & drafts due to poor air sealing of the building envelope, and oversized appliances suck a LOT of combustion air.

Seal the building up even a bit - et voila - shit happens.

thats one of the reasons we have so many problems with sick building syndrome in residential in quebec in houses built in the 80s, no positive air exchange, very well sealed and only baseboard heaters.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

Click for full size
ADDITIONAL QUESTION

Above is the layout of my basement (Somewhat to scale).

The very obvious utility room is quite large and I cannot remove the separation wall running horizontally as it is a load bearing wall.

So I will recuperate that space by using it for storage for things like seasonal clothes, xmas decorations, filing cabinets, etc.
It basically needs to be a clean area. The surfaces are marked in grey (The part in the stairs area is UNDER the stairs).

Please note: The gas meter is wirelessly verified, so aside from servicing, there is no need to access it once a month

1 - Can I finish the floor with epoxy and paint? Would moisture still get through? It's fairly dry in there usually as the hot water tank and furnace wisk away humidity.

2 - Would I still benefit from putting as much insulation in the walls as in the living area? (That's the big empty space on the other side of the stairs and that room in the bottom left corner).
Or should I go lighter in insulation? It won't be a heated room. I could just insulate the cealing to avoid the cold air sneaking through the floor above.

3 - The concrete walls against the garage go about 2 feet up inside the garage. The garage will also be insulated and heated as it will be converted into a laundry room and work shop. Should I still put up good insulation against those walls as there is still above 4 feet underground? (I'm only trying to save a foot of width in the storage area)

4 - Should I put up walls behind the furnace and hot water tank? Or should I put up walls 3 feet in front of them to give them their own "closet" ? ( I wouldn't wall up the electrical panels though)

5 - All the windows need to be replaced. For the window near the gas meter, as sun light won't be much use in there, should I just remove the window and seal it with wood panels + insulation?