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BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to daveinpoway

Re: End of Windows XP support means beginning of security...

They were already given an extension beyond their normal support period, and that was mostly due to the low adoption rate of Vista after XP hadn't been replaced in nearly half a decade. All I see is crying here, they were given a few more years to come to terms they are going to lose XP, you can't complain they were not given ample warning. The dropped support for 9x, and 2K also. The red letter final notice was sent years ago, and they ignored it.

XP is decade old operating system, and two generations behind, soon to be three after Win 8 is released estimated at the end of this year.

Besides many of the machines stuck with XP are single processor systems that couldn't play hd video smoothly if they tried, and 64-bit support sucks so most are stuck with 3GB or less of ram if the motherboard even supported that much.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12

1 edit

 

quote:
XP is decade old operating system, and two generations behind, soon to be three after Win 8 is released estimated at the end of this year
Who cares HOW OLD IT IS??

Win98se is even older but that doesnt mean IT ISNT GOOD!! (Quite the opposite.. 98se is one of the best ever released!)

Newer is NOT NETTER,its over bloated/intrusive ugly crap!


said by Oedipus :
2. Stubborn or equally incompetent software vendors (whaddaya mean 16 bit apps don't work in 64 bit windows!?)
I know its stupid... 64bit computers SHOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE ANYTHING UNDER AND INCLUDING 64bit! (64 > 16)


jabarnut
Light Years Away
Premium,MVM
join:2005-01-22
Galaxy M31
kudos:2
What the heck took you so long to show up in this thread with your Win98 plug, Dude?
We missed you!
--
I had a life once.....now I have a Computer and a Modem.


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2
Up until 18 months ago I owned an old Toshiba notebook that ran Win98SE. Only had 96MB of RAM which was a lot for Win98SE. Although it only had a 300MHz Pentium it was ok as long as you didn't have newer (i.e. bloated) software on it.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!

zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to Dude111
said by Dude111:

quote:
XP is decade old operating system, and two generations behind, soon to be three after Win 8 is released estimated at the end of this year
Who cares HOW OLD IT IS??

Win98se is even older but that doesnt mean IT ISNT GOOD!! (Quite the opposite.. 98se is one of the best ever released!)

Newer is NOT NETTER,its over bloated/intrusive ugly crap!


said by Oedipus :
2. Stubborn or equally incompetent software vendors (whaddaya mean 16 bit apps don't work in 64 bit windows!?)
I know its stupid... 64bit computers SHOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE ANYTHING UNDER 64bit! (64 > 16)

XP was an excellent OS but it is showing its age. It's nearly 11 years old now? Even though its a very solid OS I don't think one can expect securities updates indefinitely.

It's not like you can't keep using it. Microsoft is going to stop making security updates for it.

I only switch to Win7 about 2 years ago. I used XP right from the start. Personally it was the first OS I used for that long a period of time. It did well.

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to Dude111
Oh I was waiting for you, I didn't get enough exclamation marks in my diet today.

People recycle machines better than yours, please give it up. You can't even run the most current flash, or 3rd party software anymore. Your sad little computer can barely browse the web as it is, and as soon as XP dies websites will tell you to go to hell, and upgrade your browser since they don't want to support IE geriatric edition anymore.

You left out support for 8-bit dos, shame, shame on you! I however believe that you only got into computer after there was pictures to click on.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent out necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.


rcdailey
Dragoonfly
Premium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
Be nice. I have a CP/M emulator on this XP system of mine and run 8-bit CP/M software that way. I do have 2GB of RAM and XP SP3, so I can run most current software, but I admit I really like using Win 7 Pro 64-bit on systems that I monitor. Win 7 is slick.
--
It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle.


StuartMW
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Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

1 edit
said by rcdailey:

I have a CP/M emulator on this XP system of mine and run 8-bit CP/M software that way...

I have CP/M-86 in a VM but don't run any software in it (CP/M, on a Z80 based system, was the second O/S for a micro I ever used. OS/9 on a 6809 system was the first). I also have a number of MS-DOS VM's (v2.11 - v6.22) that get used on occasion. Sure they're old and obsolete but then so am I I also have every major Windows version in VM's.

PS: I have original media for almost all those VM's.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


carpetshark3
Premium
join:2004-02-12
Idledale, CO
Reviews:
·CenturyLink
reply to BlitzenZeus
Some of us don't want the latest Flash or other entertainment crap.

We use specialty software - machines are not online.

And the older machines can be converted to some form of Linux and still be useful.

I won't buy anything else from MS. So they can push security and all the "stuff" you can do till the cows come home.
It's not that Ubuntu is free, either. It's that I don't have to put up with stuff that someone thinks I "need".

WhyMe420
Premium
join:2009-04-06
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to BlitzenZeus
Seriously, and Win98se best OS ever released? Win9x was dead on it's feet the second Win2000/WinXP were released. Win9x has been horrible since the year 2001. I sure as hell don't miss the security flaws, constant BSoDs, legacy DOS crap.

64-bit operating systems don't support 16-bit applications because 16-bit is more legacy crap that they needed to shed. Even in it's current iteration, Windows 7 still has too much legacy code (thus, security flaws that need to be fixed constantly, just like XP,) but shedding 16-bit support on 64-bit operating systems is a great start. Just like shedding DOS kernel code was one of the best decisions MS made in Windows history. If you need the 16-bit junk, get an emulator or use a 32-bit flavor of Windows.

said by carpetshark3:

Some of us don't want the latest Flash or other entertainment crap.

We use specialty software - machines are not online.

And the older machines can be converted to some form of Linux and still be useful.

I won't buy anything else from MS. So they can push security and all the "stuff" you can do till the cows come home.
It's not that Ubuntu is free, either. It's that I don't have to put up with stuff that someone thinks I "need".

So what's your problem then? Obviously if your machines are not on the Internet, then you don't need the latest security updates (better be sure nobody brings something in on CD/DVD/flash drive.) MS supported XP for plenty ample amount of time, if you have some specialty needs, then find something better. Looks to me like you did already, so what are you complaining about exactly?

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
I'm not entirely sure, but I think the reason why the OS doesn't support 16-bit mode is that the hardware doesn't support v86 mode when operating in long mode.

So, basically the OS is constrained by hardware, and the hardware has taken the eminently sensible approach to start discarding the cumbersome and unused mechanisms of its youth. Farewell, memory segmentation; farewell, task switching; farewell, all those things which are slower in hardware than in software.

raythompsontn

join:2001-01-11
Oliver Springs, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to WhyMe420
said by WhyMe420:

64-bit operating systems don't support 16-bit applications because 16-bit is more legacy crap that they needed to shed.

Really? I have lots of 16 b it applications that work just fine with W7 64 bit.

WhyMe420
Premium
join:2009-04-06
kudos:1
You must have some super top-secret hardware/OS that allows 16-bit applications to run natively on your 64-bit operating system then... Win7 will emulate certain 16-bit programs (installers) but that's it... Unless you use third-party software.

»support.microsoft.com/kb/282423

quote:
No 16-Bit Code

No 16-bit code can run, except for recognized InstallShield and Acme installers (these are hard-coded in Wow64 to allow them to work).
16-bit Setup bootstraps are not supported.
16-bit MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows 3.x utilities will not start. If you attempt to start such a program, you receive a "Program.exe is not a valid Win32 application" error message.
said by dave:

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the reason why the OS doesn't support 16-bit mode is that the hardware doesn't support v86 mode when operating in long mode.

So, basically the OS is constrained by hardware, and the hardware has taken the eminently sensible approach to start discarding the cumbersome and unused mechanisms of its youth. Farewell, memory segmentation; farewell, task switching; farewell, all those things which are slower in hardware than in software.

The same thing applies to 32-bit software on a 64-bit OS. All 32-bit processes on Windows x64 are emulated via WoW64. Just like certain (few, as in only installers) 16-bit apps are also natively emulated. I think that MS could make 16-bit apps run fine, just as 32-bit apps run as well (or better) on x64 as they do on x86. I think that they just didn't want to waste their time on legacy support. They're trying to push things forward, and I agree. Can still run those old apps on x86 flavors of Windows though.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
I was thinking of this:

quote:
16-bit Windows (Win16) and DOS applications will not run on x86-64 versions of Windows due to removal of the virtual DOS machine subsystem (NTVDM) which relied upon the ability to use virtual 8086 mode. Virtual 8086 mode cannot be entered while running in long mode.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Windows

As I understand it, long mode has a 'compatibility' submode that can execute 32-bit and 16-bit x86, but this is of little use to the existing mechanism that Windows (NTVDM/WoW) uses for 16-bit code. Therefore, 16-bit support would require re-achitecting, and as you say, who'd want to waste time doing that?

Yes, they had to invent WoW84, but that's obviously needed, unlike WoWoW64.

You can probably run 16-bit code in Virtual PC (so-called XP Mode).

raythompsontn

join:2001-01-11
Oliver Springs, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to WhyMe420
said by WhyMe420:

You must have some super top-secret hardware/OS that allows 16-bit applications to run natively on your 64-bit operating system then... Win7 will emulate certain 16-bit programs (installers) but that's it... Unless you use third-party software.

Virtualization is the ticket. And it is hardly super secret. While the applications are not running natively under W7, the applications can indeed run on a system that boots W7 as the primary OS.

MS provided legacy support in a virtual session. Because of this support there is little reason to NOT convert to W7.

WhyMe420
Premium
join:2009-04-06
kudos:1

1 edit
Yes... I am talking about native support/emulation though. That is true, 7 has great virtualization support and thus can run 16-bit apps in a virtual session. However so can Vista 64 in Virtual PC, VMWare, VirtualBox and the likes. Again, though, I was talking about native support.

said by dave:

I was thinking of this:

quote:
16-bit Windows (Win16) and DOS applications will not run on x86-64 versions of Windows due to removal of the virtual DOS machine subsystem (NTVDM) which relied upon the ability to use virtual 8086 mode. Virtual 8086 mode cannot be entered while running in long mode.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Windows

As I understand it, long mode has a 'compatibility' submode that can execute 32-bit and 16-bit x86, but this is of little use to the existing mechanism that Windows (NTVDM/WoW) uses for 16-bit code. Therefore, 16-bit support would require re-achitecting, and as you say, who'd want to waste time doing that?

Yes, they had to invent WoW84, but that's obviously needed, unlike WoWoW64.

You can probably run 16-bit code in Virtual PC (so-called XP Mode).

NTVDM is an emulator just like WoW, so yeah that hardware submode isn't applicable in Windows. NTVDM would have to be completely re-written to be 64-bit compatible, else it would have to run under WoW64 (as you called it, WoWoW64,) which I suppose is what happens when "certain" 16-bit installers are executed. It probably took a lot less time to code 16-bit support for just a select few applications than it would to make it emulate with transparency.


Dude111
An Awesome Dude
Premium
join:2003-08-04
USA
kudos:12

4 edits
reply to raythompsontn
quote:
Really? I have lots of 16 b it applications that work just fine with W7 64 bit.
I think everyone should be able to that has a 64bit unit!!

Anything UNDER 64Bit should be easily runnable IF THE UNIT IS ANY GOOD!!



said by BlitzenZeus :
......and as soon as XP dies websites will tell you to go to hell, and upgrade your browser since they don't want to support IE geriatric edition anymore.
Well all one has to do is CHANGE THIER BROWSER AGENT and goto the site using "Whatever" they wanna look like they have!

Your comment about 8-bit is false..... I SAID IF THE COMPUTER IS ANY GOOD,IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO RUN ANY PROGRAM UNDER ITS TOP RATING.... (64bit running anything under it (32,16,8))

Win98se is an amazing OS.. Just look @ this thread buddy! (Click LAST to see the latest replies on it)

»www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/···860.html


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
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Galt's Gulch
kudos:2
said by Dude111:

Win98se is an amazing OS..

I thought it'd be AWESOME
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium
join:2005-01-16
WA, USA
kudos:4

1 edit
Funny thing, I have an ancient Satellite laptop with it's original OEM Win98FE. I had thought of upgrading to 98SE so I could use my flash drives and USB wifi and Ethernet adapters on it (it only has dialup), but instead I installed some unofficial service packs and USB support fixes. Now it's a hybrid OS but the old Toshiba software doesn't know the difference.

One of these days I'll probably just image the thing for posterity and put Core Linux on it. In the meantime, it's fun to play with and still boots in about 30 seconds.

My point? I keep my main PC updated and use VM's for any XP-era software I still use...which isn't much. I don't really worry or bother with the old gear stuff unless it affects functionality or security. My old PIII Win2K box is as secure as it was in 2004, it's just not that useful anymore.

My old 2000's era apps and games run faster in a XP VM on my C2D than they could possibly do in hardware from their era. It's the best of both worlds.

Let the old dogs lie, I say.
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StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
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Galt's Gulch
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said by caffeinator:

One of these days I'll probably just image the thing for posterity...

Before I donated my Toshiba Portege 3025CT (Win98SE) to a new home I made a VHD from the HD. Now I can run it using VPC and it runs faster than on the original machine
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
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WA, USA
kudos:4
I intended to to do that, but it's a bit hard when the 6GB hdd is about full and there is no USB2 support for an external drive to backup to.

It'd take eons to image that thing via USB 1.1....lol

It's a cute antique.
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StuartMW
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Galt's Gulch
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said by caffeinator:

...but it's a bit hard when the 6GB hdd is about full and there is no USB2 support for an external drive to backup to.

I used a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adapter and put the HD in another box and did the VHD conversion there. It wasn't fast (old slow IDE drive) but I only had to do it once. Booting from the VHD gave lots of "new hardware found" messages and some drivers had to be removed but again it's a one-time thing.

Now I have a virtual antique

BTW I've used that VM at least once to restore some files I'd never copied to other boxes.
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
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WA, USA
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Nice.

It's the only lappy I own, so no cables like that lying around. Not worth buying one for it either as I got it for free many years ago.

I use it to surf around in the living room when Nascar is on...the only thing I don't watch online on the main box.
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StuartMW
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said by caffeinator:

...so no cables like that lying around.

Having been around and working with PC's since the 80's I have a large collection of adapters/boards/etc. Trouble is I can never find them... quickly anyway
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caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
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I do too, but for PC's only.

I know what ya mean about finding stuff as I "need" a RS-232 serial cable for an old UPS I got for $9 the other day, but can I find one?

Meh!


StuartMW
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said by caffeinator:

...but can I find one?

Last time I moved I bought a whole bunch of those zip-lock freezer bags (large) and put all like-cables in one bag (e.g. serial in one, parallel in another, USB in another etc). I still have to find the bag I need but at least the cables I want are in there (maybe).
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caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
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said by StuartMW:

I still have to find the bag I need but at least the cables I want are in there (maybe).

Haha! Yeah, I know my serial cable is in the box with my old Cisco 678...wherever that may be. Too lazy to search ATM.
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sivran
Seamonkey's back
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Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to StuartMW
Hmm, I should consider doing that with the WinME box I keep around just to run some software for my watch (old school Timex Datalink, oh yeah). I wonder if it will actually work in the VM.
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StuartMW
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said by sivran:

I wonder if it will actually work in the VM.

Should do unless you need to use USB. That doesn't work in VPC 2007 but might in Win7 (?).
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Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
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WA, USA
kudos:4
My USB CM Storm Spawn mouse & flash drive work fine in my VirtualBox XP, even USB 2.0 works with an add-on pack.