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raythompsontn
join:2001-01-11
Oliver Springs, TN

raythompsontn to WhyMe420

Member

to WhyMe420

Re:  

said by WhyMe420:

64-bit operating systems don't support 16-bit applications because 16-bit is more legacy crap that they needed to shed.

Really? I have lots of 16 b it applications that work just fine with W7 64 bit.
WhyMe420
Premium Member
join:2009-04-06

WhyMe420

Premium Member

You must have some super top-secret hardware/OS that allows 16-bit applications to run natively on your 64-bit operating system then... Win7 will emulate certain 16-bit programs (installers) but that's it... Unless you use third-party software.

»support.microsoft.com/kb/282423
quote:
No 16-Bit Code

No 16-bit code can run, except for recognized InstallShield and Acme installers (these are hard-coded in Wow64 to allow them to work).
16-bit Setup bootstraps are not supported.
16-bit MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows 3.x utilities will not start. If you attempt to start such a program, you receive a "Program.exe is not a valid Win32 application" error message.
said by dave:

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the reason why the OS doesn't support 16-bit mode is that the hardware doesn't support v86 mode when operating in long mode.

So, basically the OS is constrained by hardware, and the hardware has taken the eminently sensible approach to start discarding the cumbersome and unused mechanisms of its youth. Farewell, memory segmentation; farewell, task switching; farewell, all those things which are slower in hardware than in software.

The same thing applies to 32-bit software on a 64-bit OS. All 32-bit processes on Windows x64 are emulated via WoW64. Just like certain (few, as in only installers) 16-bit apps are also natively emulated. I think that MS could make 16-bit apps run fine, just as 32-bit apps run as well (or better) on x64 as they do on x86. I think that they just didn't want to waste their time on legacy support. They're trying to push things forward, and I agree. Can still run those old apps on x86 flavors of Windows though.
dave
Premium Member
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio

dave

Premium Member

I was thinking of this:
quote:
16-bit Windows (Win16) and DOS applications will not run on x86-64 versions of Windows due to removal of the virtual DOS machine subsystem (NTVDM) which relied upon the ability to use virtual 8086 mode. Virtual 8086 mode cannot be entered while running in long mode.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X8 ··· #Windows

As I understand it, long mode has a 'compatibility' submode that can execute 32-bit and 16-bit x86, but this is of little use to the existing mechanism that Windows (NTVDM/WoW) uses for 16-bit code. Therefore, 16-bit support would require re-achitecting, and as you say, who'd want to waste time doing that?

Yes, they had to invent WoW84, but that's obviously needed, unlike WoWoW64.

You can probably run 16-bit code in Virtual PC (so-called XP Mode).
raythompsontn
join:2001-01-11
Oliver Springs, TN

raythompsontn to WhyMe420

Member

to WhyMe420
said by WhyMe420:

You must have some super top-secret hardware/OS that allows 16-bit applications to run natively on your 64-bit operating system then... Win7 will emulate certain 16-bit programs (installers) but that's it... Unless you use third-party software.

Virtualization is the ticket. And it is hardly super secret. While the applications are not running natively under W7, the applications can indeed run on a system that boots W7 as the primary OS.

MS provided legacy support in a virtual session. Because of this support there is little reason to NOT convert to W7.
WhyMe420
Premium Member
join:2009-04-06

1 edit

WhyMe420

Premium Member

Yes... I am talking about native support/emulation though. That is true, 7 has great virtualization support and thus can run 16-bit apps in a virtual session. However so can Vista 64 in Virtual PC, VMWare, VirtualBox and the likes. Again, though, I was talking about native support.
said by dave:

I was thinking of this:

quote:
16-bit Windows (Win16) and DOS applications will not run on x86-64 versions of Windows due to removal of the virtual DOS machine subsystem (NTVDM) which relied upon the ability to use virtual 8086 mode. Virtual 8086 mode cannot be entered while running in long mode.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X8 ··· #Windows

As I understand it, long mode has a 'compatibility' submode that can execute 32-bit and 16-bit x86, but this is of little use to the existing mechanism that Windows (NTVDM/WoW) uses for 16-bit code. Therefore, 16-bit support would require re-achitecting, and as you say, who'd want to waste time doing that?

Yes, they had to invent WoW84, but that's obviously needed, unlike WoWoW64.

You can probably run 16-bit code in Virtual PC (so-called XP Mode).

NTVDM is an emulator just like WoW, so yeah that hardware submode isn't applicable in Windows. NTVDM would have to be completely re-written to be 64-bit compatible, else it would have to run under WoW64 (as you called it, WoWoW64,) which I suppose is what happens when "certain" 16-bit installers are executed. It probably took a lot less time to code 16-bit support for just a select few applications than it would to make it emulate with transparency.
19579823 (banned)
An Awesome Dude
join:2003-08-04

4 edits

19579823 (banned) to raythompsontn

Member

to raythompsontn
quote:
Really? I have lots of 16 b it applications that work just fine with W7 64 bit.
I think everyone should be able to that has a 64bit unit!!

Anything UNDER 64Bit should be easily runnable IF THE UNIT IS ANY GOOD!!

said by BlitzenZeus :
......and as soon as XP dies websites will tell you to go to hell, and upgrade your browser since they don't want to support IE geriatric edition anymore.
Well all one has to do is CHANGE THIER BROWSER AGENT and goto the site using "Whatever" they wanna look like they have!

Your comment about 8-bit is false..... I SAID IF THE COMPUTER IS ANY GOOD,IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO RUN ANY PROGRAM UNDER ITS TOP RATING.... (64bit running anything under it (32,16,8))

Win98se is an amazing OS.. Just look @ this thread buddy! (Click LAST to see the latest replies on it)

»www.bleepingcomputer.com ··· 860.html

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by 19579823:

Win98se is an amazing OS..

I thought it'd be AWESOME

caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium Member
join:2005-01-16
00000

1 edit

caffeinator

Premium Member

Funny thing, I have an ancient Satellite laptop with it's original OEM Win98FE. I had thought of upgrading to 98SE so I could use my flash drives and USB wifi and Ethernet adapters on it (it only has dialup), but instead I installed some unofficial service packs and USB support fixes. Now it's a hybrid OS but the old Toshiba software doesn't know the difference.

One of these days I'll probably just image the thing for posterity and put Core Linux on it. In the meantime, it's fun to play with and still boots in about 30 seconds.

My point? I keep my main PC updated and use VM's for any XP-era software I still use...which isn't much. I don't really worry or bother with the old gear stuff unless it affects functionality or security. My old PIII Win2K box is as secure as it was in 2004, it's just not that useful anymore.

My old 2000's era apps and games run faster in a XP VM on my C2D than they could possibly do in hardware from their era. It's the best of both worlds.

Let the old dogs lie, I say.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by caffeinator:

One of these days I'll probably just image the thing for posterity...

Before I donated my Toshiba Portege 3025CT (Win98SE) to a new home I made a VHD from the HD. Now I can run it using VPC and it runs faster than on the original machine

caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium Member
join:2005-01-16
00000

caffeinator

Premium Member

I intended to to do that, but it's a bit hard when the 6GB hdd is about full and there is no USB2 support for an external drive to backup to.

It'd take eons to image that thing via USB 1.1....lol

It's a cute antique.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by caffeinator:

...but it's a bit hard when the 6GB hdd is about full and there is no USB2 support for an external drive to backup to.

I used a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adapter and put the HD in another box and did the VHD conversion there. It wasn't fast (old slow IDE drive) but I only had to do it once. Booting from the VHD gave lots of "new hardware found" messages and some drivers had to be removed but again it's a one-time thing.

Now I have a virtual antique

BTW I've used that VM at least once to restore some files I'd never copied to other boxes.

caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium Member
join:2005-01-16
00000

caffeinator

Premium Member

Nice.

It's the only lappy I own, so no cables like that lying around. Not worth buying one for it either as I got it for free many years ago.

I use it to surf around in the living room when Nascar is on...the only thing I don't watch online on the main box.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by caffeinator:

...so no cables like that lying around.

Having been around and working with PC's since the 80's I have a large collection of adapters/boards/etc. Trouble is I can never find them... quickly anyway

caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium Member
join:2005-01-16
00000

caffeinator

Premium Member

I do too, but for PC's only.

I know what ya mean about finding stuff as I "need" a RS-232 serial cable for an old UPS I got for $9 the other day, but can I find one?

Meh!

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by caffeinator:

...but can I find one?

Last time I moved I bought a whole bunch of those zip-lock freezer bags (large) and put all like-cables in one bag (e.g. serial in one, parallel in another, USB in another etc). I still have to find the bag I need but at least the cables I want are in there (maybe).

caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium Member
join:2005-01-16
00000

caffeinator

Premium Member

said by StuartMW:

I still have to find the bag I need but at least the cables I want are in there (maybe).

Haha! Yeah, I know my serial cable is in the box with my old Cisco 678...wherever that may be. Too lazy to search ATM.

sivran
Vive Vivaldi
Premium Member
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX

sivran to StuartMW

Premium Member

to StuartMW
Hmm, I should consider doing that with the WinME box I keep around just to run some software for my watch (old school Timex Datalink, oh yeah). I wonder if it will actually work in the VM.

StuartMW
Premium Member
join:2000-08-06

StuartMW

Premium Member

said by sivran:

I wonder if it will actually work in the VM.

Should do unless you need to use USB. That doesn't work in VPC 2007 but might in Win7 (?).

caffeinator
Coming soon to a cup near you..
Premium Member
join:2005-01-16
00000

caffeinator

Premium Member

My USB CM Storm Spawn mouse & flash drive work fine in my VirtualBox XP, even USB 2.0 works with an add-on pack.
BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium Member
join:2000-01-13

BlitzenZeus to 19579823

Premium Member

to 19579823
Changing your browser agent won't make the page work any better with the non-proprietary IE coding.

Win 98se had many limitations which were fixed with future operating systems, it's how things go. Just because you're either too broke, or too attached to it is your problem. Nobody is supporting it anymore. You would be far better off using a used p4 computer somebody was throwing away with XP, or ubuntu than that machine.