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shortckt
Watchen Das Blinken Lights
Premium
join:2000-12-05
Tenant Hell
reply to dogma

Re: The problem with mass transit

Almost. Mine is much more high tech and with a smaller rail footprint than that so it could run above a sidewalk without obstructing the sunlight.

said by dogma:

Um, yeah... Idea's like that died when this country stopped doing great things like building the Interstate highway system, the National Park system, the Internet and going to the moon....



Which is why we're stuck with what we had in the 70's. Must find a profit motive in it to get private industry to build it because if we wait for gov't it will never happen. Instead we get car makers building overpriced electric cars with very short range that people will only buy because of gov't incentives. That may help the environment (questionable) but does nothing about gridlock and shortage of parking. While I'd rather not see gov't involved, what if some of the money wasted on alternate fuel vehicle incentives and widening freeways went to such a transport system.


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6

Even if it's a government project, though, there has to be a business case. A large dam in the middle the Nevada desert paid for itself quite well, as an example. A transportation system must have a payback from fares or increased tax revenue.

A system to replace cars would not cause builders to develop more quickly or (I think) cause people to buy more houses. The state would lose registration fees, sales tax on vehicles, gasoline taxes and auto dealer tax revenue if your system were to take hold. What revenue would be generated to offset the losses, plus pay for the infrastructure investment and ongoing maintenance?

There are some things we do without a clear ROI, such as the space program and some would argue it didn't pay off well, but most times there needs to be a give to get.



dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1




With more than 9 million tourist coming into the state every year, Total direct travel spending in California was $102.3 billion in 2011, a 7.6 percent increase from 2010 spending. Travel spending in California directly supported 893,000 jobs, with earnings of $30.4 billion. Travel spending generated the greatest number of jobs in arts, entertainment and recreation (221,000 jobs), and accommodations and food service (523,000 jobs).

30 Million visit Nevada each year (But 10 Million of those are from California)


I just did some quick ROI numbers on a High Speed (TGV like) route between L.A. - Las Vegas -Tahoe - San Francisco.

Assuming each leg cost $6 Billion, or $24 Billion total. The paid ridership at each station would need to be 30,000 per week @ about $130 per leg. This would be a walk-up ticket.

Break even on a no interest loan would take about 25 - 30 years. Useful life would be about 75 years. Realizing that ROI would be child's play for a co-state industry that captures in excess of $150 Billion/year. One could easily forecast double the revenue and jobs within 12 years if the underlying transportation infrastructure is available.

Problem is that I am using the $6 Billion per leg construction cost. That is the price for a private sector build. If the government does it - triple that.


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6

Thanks. We can always count on you to do the math.

Away from horizontal mambo, er elevators, and back to trains - None of the plans I've read about would connect LA. Victorville just doesn't cut it.

Can you imagine the cost of a downtown right-of-way?



JoelTR

join:2000-12-05
Carmichael, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to JoelTR

Re: High Speed Rail Environmental Plan Approved

Here's an update on the California High-Speed Rail Project:
(Excerpt from Bakersfield Examiner)

California's High-Speed Rail project, under attack by many for being too expensive and not what the public agreed to when they gave their approval at the polls, keeps chugging along, seemingly oblivious to the criticism. The California High-Speed Rail Authority has just announced a "Meet the Primes Event" on May 17, 2012 at the Icardo Center on the California State University Bakersfield campus.

(Of note, another HSR meeting, this one to discuss the Fresno to Bakersfield draft EIR and also sponsored by the CaHSRA, will be occurring the same evening across town at the Kern County Administration building.)

According to the CaHSRA, the forum is an opportunity for small businesses and subcontractors to meet with the five design and build teams that were invited to bid on the first construction project. There will be a short presentation on the project by CaHSRA staff, followed by a meet and greet with the short-listed firms who will be hosting booths in the exhibition area.

The event is free and open to the public. For more information, including pre-registration procedures, click on the following link: HSR Meet and Greet

Agenda:
7:30 am - 8:30 am: Registration
8:30 am -10:00 am: Program and Presentation
10:00 am – 3:00 pm: Meet the Primes Networking


hoyleysox
Premium
join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA
reply to JoelTR

I recently took the Amtrack Surfliner from SD and the Adarondack train on the east coast. Both were beautiful. Enjoyed and recommend the rides. The amtrack price for two was competitive with renting a car one way and the bus. Not so much train advantage vs planes though. Would prefer lower amtrack prices instead of faster trains.



JoelTR

join:2000-12-05
Carmichael, CA

I'm certain, many people share your point of view. I remember riding the train when I was I child, and it was a great experience. I enjoyed the ride and the sceneries as the train passed by the beautiful country side.



Postal
First pull up, then pull down.
Premium
join:2000-08-30
Simi Valley, CA
reply to hoyleysox

Most people I know who bought round-trip Amtrack tickets ended up flying back to their destination.

The train just takes too damn long.
--
Next time you wave at me, use ALL your fingers.


hoyleysox
Premium
join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA

True flying has advantages for long distances, like across the country. For medium distances, like San Diego to LA, trains are pretty competitive with driving with gas prices these days.



dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1


9.5 Hours???

1.25 hours + TSA time

LA>SF Distance
 

Paris>Bordeaux Distance
 

High speed train reference time
 
said by hoyleysox:

True flying has advantages for long distances, like across the country. For medium distances, like San Diego to LA, trains are pretty competitive with driving with gas prices these days.

Okay, for this trip:

• 9 hours and 25 Minutes on the Train @ $57
or
• 1 hour and 15 Minutes + 1 hour for pat downs/total 2 hours 15 min. on plane @ $89
or
• 3 hours 10 min on a High Speed train @ $??

I have taken the Amtrack starliner to San Francisco, and just like Postal See Profile says, we all ate our return trip tickets and flew back. A high speed train would need to be competitive in terms of price...which it should be considering it can carry 600+ passengers at a time.

I would take the HSR.


dogma
XYZ
Premium
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV
kudos:1
reply to JoelTR

After billions ($3B+) of federal stimulus dollars pledged to build a new rail line, the project is plagued with problems. This will ultimately cost $118 Billion (gotta watch):

»cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2···rail.cnn

Perspective $118 Billion = 559,000,000 (yep, 559 Million) round trip advance purchase air fares between Los Angeles and San Francisco. Basically enough to pay for round trip air fares 4 times a year for every man, woman, and child in the State of California for the next 6 years.



No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6

Kill it now.



aztecnology
O Rly?
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA
reply to JoelTR

Quite the boondoggle...



JoelTR

join:2000-12-05
Carmichael, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to JoelTR

California high-speed rail board votes to hire new CEO.

Read more here: »www.sacbee.com/2012/05/30/452456···link=cpy

It looks like it's chugging along......



Boricua
Premium
join:2002-01-26
Sacramuerto
reply to No_Strings

said by No_Strings:

A horrible waste of money we don't have, to build an outmoded thing we don't need. The estimates are ballooning already and they haven't moved a single shovel of dirt.

This.

I think if they would've thought this out back in the 70s or maybe 80s, then they wouldn't be having all these problems with critics. With budget deficit pegged at 16 B, I think it's time these people let it go. California is NOT in ANY position to do this. Japan and Europe had their sh*t together decades ago. These people should've planed it then.
--
Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian. Robert Orben

PrntRhd
Premium
join:2004-11-03
Fairfield, CA
Reviews:
·Comcast

3 edits
reply to JoelTR

There is much more to the massive funding than just the rail project itself.
Including the TransBay Transit Center project as the northern High Speed Rail terminus which has been funded and is under construction:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Franci···elopment
Which includes a 61 story (down from 80) office tower.
I don't know how this all will be funded.


hoyleysox
Premium
join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA
reply to JoelTR

Agree with the environmentalists concerned about the the environmental impact between Fresno and that other place. Air can't get any filthier.

Eleven endangered species, including the San Joaquin kit fox, would be affected, according to federal biologists. Massive emissions from diesel-powered heavy equipment could foul the already filthy air. Dozens of rivers, canals and wetlands fed from the rugged peaks of the Sierra Nevada would be crossed, creating other knotty issues.

»www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me···y?page=1