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Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to Guspaz

Re: Hard Drive Deals

I've run the original Baracuda LPs and as I said I have two of the new-gen 3TB 7200 RPM Baracudas. The 7200s are actually quieter. I'd be interested to hear a side-by-side comparison between the two. The 7200 Baracuda is also a hell of a lot quieter than a WD Black.

It has been my experience that while there may be a measurable difference between noise levels on a spec sheet, the real-world result is inconsequential.



Guspaz
Guspaz
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Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues

In WD's case, it's a pretty big difference:

Green 3TB seek/idle: 29/24 dBA
Black 3TB seek/idle: 34/29 dBA

If memory serves, 7 dB indicates a doubling in pressure, so there's a pretty decent difference there, and when you've got fifteen drives, that difference can be pretty relevant.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Gone
Premium
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Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

That's because WD Black's are bloody loud to begin with, as I just pointed out.



Guspaz
Guspaz
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Montreal, QC
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reply to elwoodblues

Right, so if I'm trying to stick to WD, it's a plus for those :P
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

For WD? Absolutely.


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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reply to creed3020

said by creed3020:

This drive is 4 cents/GB, ....

Hey, that's cheaper than Bell


Guspaz
Guspaz
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Montreal, QC
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reply to elwoodblues

"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway."

The word "tapes" might change, but the basic truth will probably never change. Because while network connections continue to get faster, so does storage density. Replace "station wagon full of tapes" with "station wagon full of microSD cards" and you're still going to keep that up.

The rough estimate is 24 million microSD cards per station wagon. They currently top out at 64GB, which gives us 1,536,000,000 gigabytes, or 1536 petabytes (1.536 exabytes). If we assume a 1,000 KM distance to travel, at 100 KM/h, that gives us 1.536 exabytes per 10 hours, or 366.5 terabits per second.

EDIT: Note that 24 million microSD cards fits volume-wise, but at half a gram each, you're talking about carrying 12 metric tons. That may be a tad beyond the load capacity of a station wagon.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
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said by Guspaz:

"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway."

The word "tapes" might change, but the basic truth will probably never change. Because while network connections continue to get faster, so does storage density. Replace "station wagon full of tapes" with "station wagon full of microSD cards" and you're still going to keep that up.

I think, though, that we're seeing communications speeds closing the gap and though that old adage may still be true for a long time, it may not be true forever. Why? Because transfer speeds along local paths (i.e.- the performance of an individual computer or LAN) will always have intrinsic constraints, and with suitable technology the performance of network pathways can approach the performance of local internal ones. At one time it would have been unimaginable to have interconnected computers functioning as a single entity, or to have network-attached storage, yet today it's commonplace.

Or to put it more simply, consider how long it would take you to write all that information to all those SD cards, and suddenly that station wagon doesn't look quite so hot. And that's not just limited by the performance of the cards themselves, but the unavoidable necessity of moving all that data around the computer's own internal pathways, which are effectively just a very fast local network.
--
I go and lie down where the wood drake rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds. I come into the peace of wild things who do not tax their lives with forethought of grief. For a time I rest in the grace of the world, and I am free.

alexpb1

join:2005-06-23
Barrie, ON

1 edit
reply to elwoodblues

If you're quick, Dell.ca currently has the "WD My Book Essential 4TB USB 3.0 External Hard Drive" for $169.99 (with free shipping of course).

If you are trying to get it even cheaper, you can try to price match with Futureshop/BestBuy/MemoryExpress.

MemoryExpress will get you the cheapest price. They do price match + 25% of difference. Whereas FS/BB is PM + 10%.
So $162.49 at Memory Express.
Don't forget to mention in the comments to price match the free shipping offer too (yes Memory Express will match shipping).

Dell link:
»accessories.dell.com/sna/product···QyHeLi7A

Memory Express (for price matching Dell):
»www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX44005

Futureshop (for price matching Dell):
»www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/···593.aspx



Guspaz
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reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

I think, though, that we're seeing communications speeds closing the gap and though that old adage may still be true for a long time, it may not be true forever. Why? Because transfer speeds along local paths

Quit the opposite, the gap is rapidly expanding. The storage capacity of flash memory is increasing according to Moore's Law, while the amount of data you can shove through a fibre optic cable is not. 8 years passed between the standardization of 10GigE and 100GigE, where Moore's Law (24 months for pure transistor count) would have had that go from 10GigE to 160GigE over the same period.

Going back farther, we see 4 years passed between the standardization of GigE in 1998 and 10GigE in 2002, and that's more in line with Moore's Law. It would seem as though the rate of improvement is slowing.

Even on the consumer broadband front, not so much. In 1998, the fastest affordable broadband speed was 1Mbps. You would expect that to be somewhere between 128Mbps and 256Mbps today, but in practice most people are still on 5 or 6 megabit. Even those of us with faster connections rarely go beyond 50-60.
--
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elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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Somewhere in
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reply to alexpb1

I USB 2 not 3, and us 2x 2tb green drives inside not a 4tb drive.
If enclosed drives are a good deal I buy them and rip the drives out . At 85 / drive it's no deal and especially if there is no warranty.



Gone
Premium
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Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

It's USB 3.0 and a single 4TB drive inside. It's this:

»www.storagereview.com/western_di···b_review

Very tempting price.


alexpb1

join:2005-06-23
Barrie, ON
reply to elwoodblues

The WD My Book Essentials 4TB drive is USB 3.0 and is definitely NOT 2x 2TB drives. It's a single 4TB drive.
In fact the drive inside is a Hitachi HDS5C4040ALE630 Deskstar 5K4000 (SATA 6Gb/s, 5400 RPM, 32MB cache).


zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw

said by alexpb1:

The WD My Book Essentials 4TB drive is USB 3.0 and is definitely NOT 2x 2TB drives. It's a single 4TB drive.
In fact the drive inside is a Hitachi HDS5C4040ALE630 Deskstar 5K4000 (SATA 6Gb/s, 5400 RPM, 32MB cache).

I bought one of those. I had a hard time finding an internal 4tb drive that wasn't super expensive. I bought one of those externals and took it apart and took out the drive. So far its working pretty good (I put into my popcorn hour networked media tank).


Guspaz
Guspaz
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Montreal, QC
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reply to elwoodblues

Huh, considering how it's virtually impossible to find bare 5K4000 drives, getting them for $170 and shucking them is tempting...

The problem is the lack of any warranty. Expensive if they fail.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


alexpb1

join:2005-06-23
Barrie, ON
reply to zod5000

said by zod5000:

said by alexpb1:

The WD My Book Essentials 4TB drive is USB 3.0 and is definitely NOT 2x 2TB drives. It's a single 4TB drive.
In fact the drive inside is a Hitachi HDS5C4040ALE630 Deskstar 5K4000 (SATA 6Gb/s, 5400 RPM, 32MB cache).

I bought one of those. I had a hard time finding an internal 4tb drive that wasn't super expensive. I bought one of those externals and took it apart and took out the drive. So far its working pretty good (I put into my popcorn hour networked media tank).

Yeah, the bare drives are insanely expensive.
I would have gotten in on this 4TB deal if i had just recently (as in yesterday) purchased a 3TB Seagate from NewEgg for $109.

First thing I plan to do is rip out the drive, place it in my NAS and put an old 1TB drive in the case.

Supposedly we're to see 5TB drives introduced by WD in Q4 of 2013. So hopefully by the time I need space again 5TB drives will be on the market and they won't be ridiculously expensive.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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Somewhere in
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reply to Gone

I was on my phone and saw USB 2, I stand corrected.

SOLD, I ordered one.. 4tb at that price is hard to beat.



donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

said by elwoodblues:

I was on my phone and saw USB 2, I stand corrected.

SOLD, I ordered one.. 4tb at that price is hard to beat.

Going to rip the drive out or use it as is?


Guspaz
Guspaz
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reply to elwoodblues

My understanding is that some companies now solder the drives into the chassis, which makes it difficult or impossible to shuck them.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



HiVolt
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Toronto, ON
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Reviews:
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·TekSavvy Cable

said by Guspaz:

My understanding is that some companies now solder the drives into the chassis, which makes it difficult or impossible to shuck them.

What? Where did you read this?
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


Guspaz
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Montreal, QC
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reply to elwoodblues

There have been various reports floating around for the past few years. It's not clear to me if it's primarily 2.5" drives, or if 3.5" is affected too.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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Somewhere in
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reply to donoreo

said by donoreo:

said by elwoodblues:

I was on my phone and saw USB 2, I stand corrected.

SOLD, I ordered one.. 4tb at that price is hard to beat.

Going to rip the drive out or use it as is?

Rip it out.. no use for it in a case.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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Somewhere in
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1 edit
reply to Guspaz

I've bought a few "seagates' and they've all be screwed in.

I'll see when it shows up.

Hmmm it didn't take the first time.. tried it again



Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

said by Wolfie00:

I think, though, that we're seeing communications speeds closing the gap and though that old adage may still be true for a long time, it may not be true forever. Why? Because with suitable technology the performance of network pathways can approach the performance of local internal ones.

Quit the opposite, the gap is rapidly expanding. The storage capacity of flash memory is increasing according to Moore's Law ...

[I edited my quote for clarity.]

Yes, it currently is, but Moore's Law ends when you reach molecular scales, as it has with processor technology. There are only so many atoms in any given piece of matter.

Consider that the first modems were 110 bps (no "K" there -- they were 10 characters per second). Today in a few markets 1 Gbps is being deployed to the home. The key thing as I said is not just measuring the "bandwidth" of your station wagon in terms of the amount of data it is moving, but to consider the time it takes to actually write that data, and then retrieve it at the other end. If you consider that the whole inside of your computer is really just a very fast network, if the external network was comparably fast, you could move the data to where it needs to be in a single operation.
--
I go and lie down where the wood drake rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds. I come into the peace of wild things who do not tax their lives with forethought of grief. For a time I rest in the grace of the world, and I am free.


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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said by Wolfie00:

Consider that the first modems were 110 bps (no "K" there -- they were 10 characters per second).

While I know what you meant, it's important to clarify this as not doing so doesn't truly emphasize what you mean - there are 8 bits per character, plus a control bit, so that means a 110 bit per second modem was a whopping 12 characters per second!


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
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kudos:8

Actually, no. The signaling protocol for 110-baud modems was one start bit, 8 data bits, and two stop bits (later protocols used only one stop bit). So there were a total of 11 bits per character, for a data rate of 10 characters per second. This matched the old Teletype (TTY) print and paper tape speeds.



Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues

OK, so 110 baud modems in 1958 (Bell 101), and 1 gigabit today... Let's check Moore's law:

(2013-1958) = 28 doublings

110 baud doubled 28 times gives us 29,527,900,160 baud, or about 30 gigabit.

I can pretty confidently say that nobody has 30GigE to their home

Moore's Law doesn't end at the molecular scale, only the current methods do. NAND flash, for example, uses the same physical space to store 1 bit versus 3 bits. Reliability differs, but the storage density is 3x higher using the same electron wells. Beyond that, below the molecular scale you've got the atomic scale, and a carbon atom has an effective radius of about 0.2 nanometers (we're about to get 14nm chips). And once you hit that limitation, you start scaling in another dimension, and start layering. Today's processors have very few layers due to limitations like heat dissipation and the space required for vias. Solve those problems and you can get thousands of times more layers into a similar amount of space... before we even start to talk about throwing photons around.

So there is the potential still for many orders of magnitude of improvement in electronics before we hit up against the laws of physics... the question is if we'll be able to keep advancing down that path at the rate of Moore's Law, or will the rate of improvement slow as it gets harder and harder to make the next leap?

Don't forget too that there are theoretical limits to how much information you can shove down an optical fibre for any appreciable difference. I think the current limits down a single fibre strand using uDWDM (so current technology) is about 41 terabits per second, and the theoretical limits that I've seen bandied about are anywhere from 100 terabits per second to 160,000 terabits per second.
--
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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
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Moore's Law is a statement about the predictable doubling of active component counts (specifically transistors) due to miniaturization. Because of molecular and atomic scales, the trend eventually stops. You're right that many other techniques can be employed -- including quantum techniques -- but that's a whole different issue, involving fundamental technology changes that may produce results greater than or less than Moore's Law and has nothing to do with it. The same technological leaps can occur in communications technology, and have been occurring. We have wide area networks today that are faster than the internal pathways of computers a generation ago.
--
I go and lie down where the wood drake rests in his beauty on the water, and the great heron feeds. I come into the peace of wild things who do not tax their lives with forethought of grief. For a time I rest in the grace of the world, and I am free.



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

Actually, no. The signaling protocol for 110-baud modems was one start bit, 8 data bits, and two stop bits (later protocols used only one stop bit). So there were a total of 11 bits per character, for a data rate of 10 characters per second. This matched the old Teletype (TTY) print and paper tape speeds.

I was thinking 8N1, which gave me roughly 12 (it should have actually been 11 now that I think of it). I'm not so old as to remember what you described above.

Either way, and point being, it was bloody slow. We've come a long way, baby


Guspaz
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reply to Wolfie00

Moore's Law has been sufficiently genericized today that we can apply the same concept regardless of the low-level definition. In fact, that's why for CPUs you've got two sets of Moore's Law; the 24-month period that takes into account purely the transistor count, and then 18-month period that also takes into account architectural improvements. By the same token, Moore's Law has been applied successfully to other fields that have nothing to do with transistors, but instead some other quantity of something doubling.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org