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Devanchya
Smile
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

[Rant] Resumes - looking for Employee's

I really need to rant here.

I am lucky in that I have a good job. It feels stable for the first time in years. In fact I'm hiring. I have 2 very good in-house recruiters looking for people to hire... and the job is a bit different.

The job is to help me look after 5000+ developers for the client I work with. Windows / Linux system. Very large and complicated network. Pretty Stable OS setup. Redhat, Solaris, Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows 2003, 2008.

You know... Large Corporate Office type job where a single image looks after a lot of work.

Well my job is to build a team to help make a end-users Life easier by looking after the software they will need to develop with. While this alone isn't an easy task, since every developer demands his own shiny bauble and must have it or else... really what I am looking for is someone with System Admin experience, the ability to look at why something doesn't work and "make it work" or know how to tell the vendor to "make it work"... or even simply suggest a DIFFERENT OPTION.

I have HR looking at system admins since most developers want to develop, and this isn't a developing job. You will get to program 30% of the time. You get to HACK things together, and string bits of apps together so that they work in a way no-one in the outside world would have thought to do it... Make a service that is designed for 50 users work for 500+.

In short it is a job that requires people to know a bit beyond the drywall of the Computer.

My rant is... yes there are the unemployeable out there. There are some people who have the skills to be a level 3 support person if it is basically documented...

But I can't stand is someone who puts a Certificate on their resume and then can't back up the certification with knowledge. I have found 2-3 people who were prefect for the job but were passed over because they were unable to back up their certification.

If you have the MCP on your resume, I expect you to know what a REG-DWORD is... or how to uninstall software from windows if the uninstall package breaks. I expect you to know what I mean if I say "App Wiz" instead of "Add/Remove Programs". Maybe that last one is too much.

If you have a Linux Certificate, I expect you to know the basics of the init system, and be able to at least have an idea what grub or lilo is.

Am I asking for to much?

Maybe I'm just getting frustrated after nearly a month of interviews and no one meeting our needs.
--
»www.codecipher.com - Marking the way to tomorrow's solutions -- Did you know that Perl is not Dead? »perlisalive.org/



Tenar

join:2008-01-02
Midland, ON

Have you tried posting the position on linked-in? I've heard of better success in getting candidates from there.


Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

2 edits
reply to Devanchya

I think you're asking for much. Maybe try to find someone with baseline skills that you need.

If you can find someone with 80-90% of the skills, and has potential to learn through training -- IMO that's someone you want to hire.

I hate to sound pessimistic, but hopefully you guys aren't looking for a guy that has exact specific training for this job... Cause that's probably impossible since all jobs are different. Why not hire a young guy for less and train them?

To be honest, when I hear that you guys have been interviewing for a month either your recruiters are not doing a good job, or you guys are being wayyyyyyyy too picky. (hopefully you realize that there will be a learning curve regardless of who you hire... And after a few months, they'll know what their doing since a lot of problems pop up over and over again...)

--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X



Devanchya
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Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

I admit that we are being picky in many ways. Really I just want a person who can back-up their cerfications if they have them on their resume at this point.

Our HR department is very good at fishing. They caught me years ago :P
--
»www.codecipher.com - Marking the way to tomorrow's solutions -- Did you know that Perl is not Dead? »perlisalive.org/


Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

1 edit

Well, maybe you guys should be specific on what you want software wise. People are usually nervous in interviews, so if you guys are really specific, people can review and be better prepared to answer the questions.

I'd also suggest minimizing the curveball questions to one or two since it's not all that productive if they are nervous and just freeze up on giving a good answer.

Maybe you're getting a bit of tunnel vision after 1 month of interviews. But if certification is important to you, tell your HR guys to let the people know when they schedule an interview! Since you guys are looking for specific stuff, let interviewees know ahead of time.

They're probably focusing on their work history and experience, so if you let them know you'll be asking them about their certifications most will probably review the basics.



A Lurker
that's Ms Lurker btw
Premium
join:2007-10-27
Wellington N
reply to Devanchya

I can't speak to your specific as lately I'm hiring at the other end of the scale (general labourers). I just want them to show up and work... and sometimes that's too tough to find.



donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to Devanchya

If only you guys were not in a crappy location near the airport.


mr weather
Premium
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON

But the ripper joint is close by!



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

North on Torbram, up near Hwy 7 IIRC. I'm a eastender now.. been awhile for me since I've ventured out that far for "entertainment".



Devanchya
Smile
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

There is the Locomotion about 1km away. I only know because Subway is next door.

A bunch of TV shows are filmed in the area as well.
--
»www.codecipher.com - Marking the way to tomorrow's solutions -- Did you know that Perl is not Dead? »perlisalive.org/



nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to Devanchya

I can understand the frustration you're experiencing...

I wish I knew that stuff...unfortunately I've been so far reserved from anything, and my programming skills were always non-existent.

This is what separated me from a job in the industry making any serious money....lack of programming skill....most employers wanted that skill and I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag....others like myself may be in that situation....

In regards to knowing what a REG-DWORD is and things like that..but my MCP is in Windows NT 4 lol.

I'm in no mans land now when it comes to support or anything like that...its why I posted about networking skill before "The big crash" and I never got a chance to see any of the responses, or to be honest I can't remember what was said, seems like such a long time ago, but still looking to develop those skills incase I do have to revert back to that industry because other than that, I don't have any other real skills to offer the planet ....

Anywho, I wish you luck in your search....hopefully you find someone good and stable who will stay with the organization...as I'd like to, but living down south might be difficult for me...


49667909

join:2012-05-10
reply to Devanchya

App Wiz? I never heard that term until today and it still sounds silly as I write ths.



nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

said by 49667909:

App Wiz? I never heard that term until today and it still sounds silly as I write ths.

Not looking it up I believe its a type of Application install Wizard that was used pre ".msi" packages? to install programs on like Win9x/NT/2k...maybe even XP machines?

It was a kind of front end I believe....I could be wrong though....


donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to 49667909

said by 49667909:

App Wiz? I never heard that term until today and it still sounds silly as I write ths.

It is the actual name of the Control Panel "Add / Remove Programs" function, appwiz.cpl.

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to Devanchya

said by Devanchya:

But I can't stand is someone who puts a Certificate on their resume and then can't back up the certification with knowledge. I have found 2-3 people who were prefect for the job but were passed over because they were unable to back up their certification.

That's what a certification is, a way to convince someone that you know something you don't.

If I was you I'd stop asking for certification and start requesting samples of previous work code instead.


Devanchya
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Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

We aren't asking for certificates. but if they have a certificate on the resume we have to ask questions about it because our client will.
--
»www.codecipher.com - Marking the way to tomorrow's solutions -- Did you know that Perl is not Dead? »perlisalive.org/



donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
reply to IamGimli

said by IamGimli:

said by Devanchya:

But I can't stand is someone who puts a Certificate on their resume and then can't back up the certification with knowledge. I have found 2-3 people who were prefect for the job but were passed over because they were unable to back up their certification.

That's what a certification is, a way to convince someone that you know something you don't.

If I was you I'd stop asking for certification and start requesting samples of previous work code instead.

That is what a PAPER certification is. The older MSCE's were a waste of time. All they proved is that you could write a test. When I did my Red Hat certification in 2003, it was all hands on practical, no written test. It was in two parts, but the first part was you were presented with a computer that would not boot. If you could not fix that, you could not do the rest of the first half an you failed it. Over half the class failed, I got one thing wrong in the second portion of the test (made a mistake in a crontab set up).
--
The irony of common sense, it is not that common.
I cannot deny anything I did not say.
A kitten dies every time someone uses "then" and "than" incorrectly.
I mock people who give their children odd spelling of names.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to IamGimli

said by IamGimli:

said by Devanchya:

But I can't stand is someone who puts a Certificate on their resume and then can't back up the certification with knowledge. I have found 2-3 people who were prefect for the job but were passed over because they were unable to back up their certification.

That's what a certification is, a way to convince someone that you know something you don't.

If I was you I'd stop asking for certification and start requesting samples of previous work code instead.

Certifications to me, were that you "read the book" and "took a test", but outside of that have no real world skills.

There are people who spend their entire lifetime getting certifications, so it looks great on paper.

NitzyGuy, I also got my MCP is on NT WS and Server(boy that dates me), the days of the multiple guess questions.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

said by elwoodblues:

said by IamGimli:

said by Devanchya:

But I can't stand is someone who puts a Certificate on their resume and then can't back up the certification with knowledge. I have found 2-3 people who were prefect for the job but were passed over because they were unable to back up their certification.

That's what a certification is, a way to convince someone that you know something you don't.

If I was you I'd stop asking for certification and start requesting samples of previous work code instead.

Certifications to me, were that you "read the book" and "took a test", but outside of that have no real world skills.

There are people who spend their entire lifetime getting certifications, so it looks great on paper.

NitzyGuy, I also got my MCP is on NT WS and Server(boy that dates me), the days of the multiple guess questions.

Yeah, that's certification IMO too. If Devanchya is going to ask applicants about their certs, the least he can do is get HR to warn the interviewees about it when they book the interview.

That way they can brush up on the lingo and basics. Hell, IMO you guys should set a deadline when you want to get your 2 new employees and then pick the 2 best who you think you'd get a long well with and who have the most potential to learn the ropes.

Or better yet if you don't mind training, hire some co-op students from the local college and give some kids a job.
--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X


Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

1 edit
reply to Devanchya

I found this article interesting.

»www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in···2434807/

Last Oct, I had 2 interviews with JETRO in Toronto. They lied to me after and said they hired someone else. I just noticed today that almost a year later, they are still posting this position for some reason. (When they clearly have no intention of filling it.)

I'm pretty sure that this is the new employer mentality. Everyone is unemployable when it's really the employers.

--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Devanchya

said by Devanchya:

I have found 2-3 people who were prefect for the job but were passed over because they were unable to back up their certification.

Hah! Welcome to the long running joke of "industry standard IT certifications". Since the late 90's, those of us in IT used to joke about the uselessness of people that proclaimed their "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer" status.

I went through the trouble to be an MCT (Microsoft Certified Trainer) many moons ago and maintained it until a few years back as they've made it so any idiot can teach. Since then, I care not for certifications and I'm sure I don't have enough fingers to count how many have lapsed over the last few years.

said by Devanchya:

If you have the MCP on your resume, I expect you to know what a REG-DWORD is...

Hah, your requirements are certainly more stringent than mine.

Back in the 90's I had a good routine that involved a test system and expect a hiree to associate registry keys in HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\services with their associated services in services.msc and spot services, by registry key, that didn't belong. Bonus points if they didn't look at DisplayName.

Surprisingly, many young folks got it and those that didn't, they requested a chance to interview again a few days later since they went home and learned.

These days... I doubt I'd find anyone that recognized the keys.

More than a decade ago, my best, longest lasting employees came to me as high school co-op students. As Warez_Zealot suggests, perhaps it's better to loser your baseline or at least change your prerequisites and go for someone who's smart rather than certified, and then train them to do what you want them to do.

In 1997, the Windows NT Resource Kit was required reading for all new employees and I'd quiz them on its difficult topics. Back then, the resource kit was highly technical and rather overwhelming; today the Windows 7 Resource Kit is light bathroom reading.


nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
reply to elwoodblues

said by elwoodblues:

said by IamGimli:

said by Devanchya:

But I can't stand is someone who puts a Certificate on their resume and then can't back up the certification with knowledge. I have found 2-3 people who were prefect for the job but were passed over because they were unable to back up their certification.

That's what a certification is, a way to convince someone that you know something you don't.

If I was you I'd stop asking for certification and start requesting samples of previous work code instead.

Certifications to me, were that you "read the book" and "took a test", but outside of that have no real world skills.

There are people who spend their entire lifetime getting certifications, so it looks great on paper.

NitzyGuy, I also got my MCP is on NT WS and Server(boy that dates me), the days of the multiple guess questions.

....Well, it dates me too, except mine was part of the "New" Adaptive testing...not that it was extremely difficult.....unfortunately the Network Essentials part of the MCSE tripped me up and I never finished but still have my MCP card...I carry it around with me for nostalgia purposes...reminds me of how things have changed so much....

I did have hands on training though...again, back in the 1998-1999 days....its all completely useless now...but I can read and learn....even Windows 7 for all of its GUI type nonsense....

Thank you for the lesson on Appwiz....I had completely forgotten about cpl's....I thought in the Windows 7 world they had disappeared....I'm still stubbornly holding onto XP and I do have a Vista laptop...

All it was, was a way for me to get a foot in the door in all honesty, I didn't expect to land into a job making 40-50k/year as a 22 year old...I started at $9.50, then in 2000 proceeded from contract to contract (the year of 4 jobs) at roughly $15-$17/hr...which was not bad considering...

Anywho, I just have to get motivated to learn some of this stuff again as I feel really rusty....

Robrr

join:2008-04-19
Guelph, ON
reply to Warez_Zealot

said by Warez_Zealot:

Last Oct, I had 2 interviews with JETRO in Toronto. They lied to me after and said they hired someone else. I just noticed today that almost a year later, they are still posting this position for some reason. (When they clearly have no intention of filling it.)

Are you sure it is not just a matter that the company posts fr the job all year round and then keeps a file of whom they do see as viable candidates for the position that they can call upon if an opening does become available?

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

2 edits

said by Robrr:

said by Warez_Zealot:

Last Oct, I had 2 interviews with JETRO in Toronto. They lied to me after and said they hired someone else. I just noticed today that almost a year later, they are still posting this position for some reason. (When they clearly have no intention of filling it.)

Are you sure it is not just a matter that the company posts fr the job all year round and then keeps a file of whom they do see as viable candidates for the position that they can call upon if an opening does become available?

Dunno. I just assumed the racist bastards are just waiting for a Japanese Canadian to apply. (They are "basically" an all Japanese office as they told me.*including the secretaries*) The fact they brought me in for 2 interviews and hit it off just to not hire me was really perplexing.

Anyhow, my point is that the fella from the article is speaking the truth. Since I've returned to Canada, the employers are very disrespectful of applicants, their time, money, and their hopes.

I'm just glad my observations were correct. I've been gainfully employed my whole life up until October 2011 when I returned to Canada, and have an MA. Now I can't find squat.

--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X