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matt832

join:2003-09-04
Flushing, MI

I need to change my network addresses for Uverse expansion?

Sorry about the cross post, but I am hoping for some answers...

Got a note in my email today from ATT:

"We have some important time-sensitive information about your AT&T U-verse service. As part of AT&T's efforts to enhance our network to accommodate future growth, we will be making a firmware upgrade to your AT&T U-verse gateway.

Why am I receiving this notice?
This upgrade will affect you if you configured your home or business network to use the 10.0.0.1 - 10.255.255.254 private Internet Protocol (IP) range within your AT&T U-verse gateway (i.e., any LAN address that starts with 10.x).

Our records indicate you have configured your home or business network to use the 10.0.0.1 - 10.255.255.254 private Internet Protocol (IP) range within your AT&T U-verse gateway (i.e., any LAN address that starts with 10.x).

What do I need to do?
You must update your network configuration to use an alternate LAN IP range no later than July 6, 2012. Failure to update your network will potentially lead to a service disruption. For information on how to change your LAN IP settings, please visit att.com/lansettings and review the Quick Reference information provided below. If you have an IT professional managing your LAN environment, please be sure to provide him or her with this notice. "

OK, can anyone tell me why the addresses I use on an INTERNAL setup has any effect on ATT? I'm a bit puzzled and upset about this. At this point I have well over 2 dozen net enabled items, 98% with fixed IP addresses. The last time I redid my network it took me many hours to assign and update my equipment, I have ZERO desire to do it again.

I am using the 2 wire gateway as my router, I wonder if I could skip the reset if I were to place my old tomato based Buffalo router after the Gateway and leave my network alone.

Any thoughts?

SirSweeps

join:2012-02-12
Los Angeles, CA

1 recommendation

My guess is that a 10. network would conflict with the ip pools they are using for your area...

The easiest way to mitigate its effects would be to use your Tomato Buffalo after the 2wire. Assuming AT&T gave you the standard 2wire router (10/100 bg) the Buffalo should prove on par if not better then the 2wire.

You would still have to change the AT&T router's set up but could avoid changing the ip of your devices by setting up the Buffalo's internal DHCP pool to match what you currently have set up in the AT&T router. Remember that this also means you would have to port forward on both routers.


freakout9903
Premium
join:2001-04-19
Gastonia, NC
reply to matt832
Your lucky you received an email regarding this. A ton of us were pushed the upgrade and lost use of 10.x.x.x as a private range. I can't answer all your questions as to why, but you don't have a way around it. The way the Gateways work, we don't get a true bridge mode to let us use any private range, we are stuck with this DMZ+ mode that basically assigns a range to your devices. Until the latest upgrade we had 10.x.x.x and 192.168.x.x to choose from.

You couldn't throw a router behind it and still use the 10.x.x.x range unless you have your router hold the 192.168.x.x range and then serve out the 10.x.x.x range to your client devices. Tomato may allow you to serve out different addresses than what the router IP holds but I have not attempted to do so myself.
--
Join The Fight against Media Censorship www.blackthisout.com

SirSweeps

join:2012-02-12
Los Angeles, CA
A router always uses a different range than the one it is connected to unless it is being used in a more specific way. By default most connect the external ip from a modem or router to one that it uses on its internal network. The most common of which in most consumer grade routers (that I have come across) are 10.0.0.0/8, 172.16.0.0/16, 192.168.0.0/24. In most cases the firmware does not allow one to change from these standard ip ranges. However, a majority of custom firmwares and routing software allow one to specify any range to be used on the internal network except for 127.0.0.0/8 (loopback addresses)169.254.0.0/16 (Microsoft range) and a few others that I can't remember off of the top of my head.

It all depends on which device you use as your DHCP Server. Ideally the OP would use the Buffalo as the DHCP server and change the internal ip pool to a 10.x.x.x format or use Tomato to set each devices ip to a static one within the router. For about 15 devices should take under 20 mins or so.

As long as the ip pool chosen does not duplicate the level above it then it should all just work. Computers ip is routed through the Buffalo's ip which is in turn routed through the AT&T's router connecting to the internet. The main problem is the latency introduced through the levels of NAT that is required.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·AT&T Midwest
·Time Warner Cable
reply to matt832
said by matt832:

I am using the 2 wire gateway as my router, I wonder if I could skip the reset if I were to place my old tomato based Buffalo router after the Gateway and leave my network alone.

That should work. Just do it now and you'll know.

I've always used my own router behind whatever they provide. I liked the ADSL Speedstream and my current cable modem, which couldn't be any simpler.

Think about the AT&T equipment as a "layer" that can be swapped out with no effect on your internal router. The less intermingling, and the less dependent you are on their equipment, the better.

For you, at least. It's to their advantage to bundle services as much as possible. So they provide you a VDSL modem that includes a WiFi Router with lots of capabilities. It's easier for them because there's only one piece of equipment to replace, plus it makes it harder for you if you want to change providers.

I ran the 3600HGV for a year and, although some of its capabilities were better than my own router, I just set DMZplus to ON, left the default NAT addresses in place and went with it.

When I switched providers, the only thing I had to do was move my router's WAN cable from the 3600HGV to the cable modem.
--
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Find your USNG coordinates:
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MikeVx

join:2005-04-02
Southgate, MI

1 recommendation

reply to matt832
said by matt832:

OK, can anyone tell me why the addresses I use on an INTERNAL setup has any effect on ATT? I'm a bit puzzled and upset about this. At this point I have well over 2 dozen net enabled items, 98% with fixed IP addresses. The last time I redid my network it took me many hours to assign and update my equipment, I have ZERO desire to do it again.

My guess is that they will be NATing out your area and they are using the 10.x range to do it. The comment about "to accommodate future growth" implies that they may be running out of IPv4 addresses for your section of network, and it may be easier to NAT off your section than to juggle around address blocks to assign new externally-reachable ones to your area.

Beyond that, they probably perceive some other benefits to this. I expect that it would complicate the lives of those using most P2P programs, as they would be limited to outbound connections only unless it proves possible to discover other nodes inside the NATed range.

I would also expect this to mess with anyone using any sort of small server, as some people use mail servers at home and such. I have some mini-server processes to allow point-to-point sending and receiving of files without involving a third-party host. This sort of tactic would break that unless I could make the transfers work over IPv6. So far, there is no sign of that happening here, but I'll keep watch. Oh frack, this would break my IPv6 tunnel. I REALLY hope they go to native v6 before anything like this happens here.


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13

1 recommendation

said by MikeVx:

Oh frack, this would break my IPv6 tunnel. I REALLY hope they go to native v6 before anything like this happens here.

The closest thing to native IPv6 we're ever going to see is the 6rd they're rolling out. If you have a NVG510 there's a good chance you're already live. If not, bring your own router and see this thread.

/M


Mentor10

@sbcglobal.net
This makes no sense whatsoever. What does it matter to att what is done on the inside of the router? To say that effects what is going on outside the router is a direct contradiction to the function of nat to begin with. This is crap!


maartena
Elmo
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to MikeVx
said by MikeVx:

Oh frack, this would break my IPv6 tunnel. I REALLY hope they go to native v6 before anything like this happens here.

Not very likely. If IPv6 is important for you, you might want to start thinking about an alternative provider for your IPv6 traffic.
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13
reply to Mentor10
said by Mentor10 :

What does it matter to att what is done on the inside of the router? To say that effects what is going on outside the router is a direct contradiction to the function of nat to begin with.

Because if when they deploy carrier grade NAT they will most likely start assigning 10.x addresses to the WAN side of the router, and having the same address range on both the WAN and LAN sides will really confuse a router.

/M


GNH
tolle causam
Premium
join:1999-12-20
Arlington, TX
Exactly, and they are. My mobile's (Hsdpa+) internal IPs are: 10.153.xxx.xxx, 10.164.xxx.xxx


ORR

@sbcglobal.net
I also got this message. GNH, does this have any effect an you being able to reach your LAN from outside the network (say for remote desktop, or security IP cameras, or the like)? Any issues with using VPN?


GNH
tolle causam
Premium
join:1999-12-20
Arlington, TX
No problems, but I set my gateway to use Class B 172.16 space. Sounds like the issue is related to those using Class A 10. for their private gateway address space.


gerick

join:2001-01-17
San Antonio, TX
kudos:1
reply to matt832
If When they do deploy "Carrier Grade Nat", then how does that affect me running a server in my home? Will I still be able to access my house over port 80?


SteveB

@portla.org
reply to ORR
If they are changing our WAN IP to a non-routable 10.x.x.x network, which is the ONLY reason I can think of as to why we need to change our internal LAN segment, then we are doomed. If they do this, forget access to your network from outside, like if you have an email server, a web site, FTP, RDP, or even a Sling Box. I have all the above, and I can't get anyone on the phone who has a clue about networking or what the purpose of the change over is. I either need a static public IP address on my WAN or I need to go shopping for another provider. What a pain!


SteveB

@portla.org
I just spoke to AT&T again. I got somebody who was fairly knowledgeable and he says that on July 6th, they are switching over to IPV6. Also, the reason for changing from a 10.x.x.x network to 192.168.x.x is because IPV6 can't nat to that segment. I don't know anything about IPV6, so I have to take his word for it. However, the really bad news, is that for anyone like myself that frequently access the home network from the Internet, or has a mail server, web site, FTP, security cams, etc., I believe we've lost that access. I told him that I pity their support desk on July 6th and beyond because there's going to be a lot of broken customer networks and I guarantee there is NOBODY at AT&T who can get on a phone and tell you how to fix the myriad of issues that will arise. Road Runner is getting a call from me this week...

cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
said by SteveB :

I just spoke to AT&T again. I got somebody who was fairly knowledgeable and he says that on July 6th, they are switching over to IPV6. Also, the reason for changing from a 10.x.x.x network to 192.168.x.x is because IPV6 can't nat to that segment.

Excuse me while I clean the Mt.Dew off my monitor.

That is the single largest load of horse shit I've yet seen. They are not "switching to IPv6" -- AT&T's dumbass plan for IPv6 is 6rd TUNNELING. (even AT&T COMMERCIAL services have laughable IPv6 deployment) IPv6 and IPv4 are completely different networks. There is no "NAT" involved... v4 and v6 hosts cannot directly communicate; it takes application aware proxies, no amount of header rewriting can make the two compatible.

The only plausable reason for restricting 10/8 is the (idiotic) deployment of Carrier Grade NAT (CGN) inwhich customers no longer are assigned public IP addresses. (from the same people who hand out static /29's for free to anyone who asks... this makes no sense.) CGN requires some rather beafy hardware, and opens them to a slew of legal issues (tracking the illegal activities of the now-nat'd customers.) This will piss off a lot of people, and *will* cost them customers.


Rangersfan

@sbcglobal.net


SteveB

@portla.org
reply to cramer
OK, so you're not sure exactly what they are doing either, so who is, or how do we find out what's happening July 6th? If the guy I talked to gave me bad info, where do I ( we ) go from there? I'm not waiting til July just find out what happens...


RexHavoc

@sbcglobal.net
I was just told by AT&T 2nd tier support that this is indeed CGN, and that nat'ed customers will no longer be assigned a public IP address. You will be at least one layer, if not two layers down, which seems to also mean that access to services inside your home network will not be available to you outside, as well as breaking VPN. They have told me that for $15/month I can get a private IP address. Maybe that is the key here, getting another $15/month? SIGH. Maybe times to switch back to Comcast!

cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
reply to SteveB
I would say very few know exactly what is going on, and even fewer why. The tech talking about IPv6 was just making shit up to get you off the phone. (far too common in call centers.)

IPv4 and IPv6 are as functionally different as Appletalk and IPX. Dual stack is not "the simplest way", it's pretty much the *only* way... You either run an IPv6 stack or not; to talk to other v6 hosts, you have to run a v6 stack. v4 talks to v4; v6 talks to v6. If I'm speaking Gaelic and you're speaking Swahili, we aren't communicating.

said by RexHavoc :

I was just told by AT&T 2nd tier support that this is indeed CGN...

That's the only thing that makes sense. But not when you notice how many people have been *GIVEN* static address blocks simply by asking. Now they're trotting out the $15/month "static IP" service that used to be available on DSL??? (which they dropped several years ago -- residential DSL customers cannot(?) get a static IP for any price.)

CompTech210

join:2008-09-14
San Antonio, TX
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·AT&T DSL Service
reply to matt832
In my honest opinion i think its about the uverse video distribution system, if you think about it the video is served from servers with pubic IP's. And there has to be enough servers to keep up with the demand of the subscribers in a certain area.

What i think they are going to do to be able to make the maximum use of their IP pools is to move their video servers to IPs in the 10.X.X.X pool and with that they cant have users using the 10/8 pool or there will be issues with getting to the video servers.

That is the only common sence idea i would have as to why they would require all u-verse customers to get off the 10/8 block.

I currently have the oldschool DSL and my lan uses the 10.187.36.0/24 block as its so out of the ordinary no one would guess how i structured it.

SithL0rd

join:2001-05-17
Cordova, TN
reply to matt832
I just switched over to 12/1 Uverse and got this email as well. With the PITA it was to get my own router working and now this I'm back to looking at Comcast even tho I don't want too.
I regularly remote desktop to my home computer to start a patch download or run updates or anything. If I lose this ability then it just don't matter.

So I will be out the $100 for the modem that I cannot use anywhere else.


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13
said by SithL0rd:

I regularly remote desktop to my home computer to start a patch download or run updates or anything. If I lose this ability then it just don't matter.

Um, what? Not letting you use the 10/8 block does not prevent you from using remote desktop... Just pick something out of the 172.16/12 block if you're worried about clashing with 192.168/16. Also, if the VPN client is running on said desktop (and not a firewall/router/VPN box) you can still use 10/8 as the endpoint address. If you're not using a VPN then your post is even more confusing as port forwarding on the ATT gateway don't care what internal address range you're using...

/M

cramer
Premium
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
kudos:9
If the ISP is handing out private addresses, how the f*** is anyone supposed to get to him from the public internet? The speculation is they're taking away 10/8 because they are about to deploy CGN. In that situation, you don't have a public IP address; you are not connected (directly) to the internet... NOTHING ON THE INTERNET CAN CONNECT TO YOU. It's exactly like your NAT'd home network, except you don't control the gateway and thus cannot add maps through it.


maartena
Elmo
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to matt832
The day I will lose my public accessible IP address is the day I will make a call to Time Warner Cable and hook up cable internet.

It's possible they will be using the 10.x networks for other purposes - perhaps something with the TV side - as I cannot fathom they would actually use the 10.x and make us some sort of "corporate network".
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13
reply to cramer
said by cramer:

If the ISP is handing out private addresses, how the f*** is anyone supposed to get to him from the public internet? The speculation is they're taking away 10/8 because they are about to deploy CGN.

He replied to the OP so I was assuming he was talking about needing to move away from 10/8 and not necessarily CGN.

It's easy to "get to him from the internet" with a TCP/UDP-based VPN connection - as that type is set up with an outgoing connection, it can blast through however many NAT layers it needs to. I've used mine 3 layers deep before.

/M


mackey
Premium
join:2007-08-20
kudos:13

1 recommendation

reply to maartena
said by maartena:

as I cannot fathom they would actually use the 10.x and make us some sort of "corporate network".

Perhaps because they're almost out of addresses because they were handing /29's out to everyone and their dog earlier?

Nah, this is ATT we're talking about. They probably realized they could CGN everyone and charge an extra $4.99-$9.99/month for an "advanced" public IP connection because "85% of the customers don't need it."

/M


wayjac
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy
kudos:1
reply to cramer
Residential DSL customers can purchase a block of 5 static public ip's
Residential DSL customers in the bellsouth region cannot obtain a single static public ip

Zoder

join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL
There's a lot of FUD in this thread. With only 6 weeks to go you would think David can get us the facts. If you're reading this, will you post here and let us know if we'll still have a public accessible IP address?