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Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob

Anon

Vodka v Method heroic mode DS race

Hey y'all,

I recently watched the Vodka v Method 25 heroic mode DS charity race (no buff) and was blown away at how easily the pros handle the heroic mode fights. Both finished in something just over an hour, and there was only about a 3 second differential between the two guilds (Vodka had one wipe using an underhealing strategy, and would have overtaken Method despite the wipe if it didn't lose a player on Madness to the platform switching glitch). My mediocre guild can do a 10 man non-heroic in around 2 hours without rushing or dawdling, and probably will have a wipe or two during that time.

Can any pros out there point out some of the tricks / strategies Vodka and Method were using on specific fights that might help elevate mediocre players like me into really good players?

The most obvious thing I saw was on the Hagara fight where both guilds took down the lightning phase almost instantly -- their strats obviously required every raid member to know exactly where they were near the transition, be aware that the transition was coming, and move to their assigned spot immediately. I think that's 2 levels of raid awareness past where my guild is at. It's hard enough to get 10 people to run in a circle without spreading out or clumping up too much!

Anyway, insight is appreciated, and if you haven't seen it, it's worth a look! I don't have the link, but it's on youtube.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

These guilds are sponsored and they live to raid.

pretty much they have a shitload of practice, they know the tiniest aspects of every phase. Their characters are min maxed with math that would make a PHD at NASA say WTF.

Really there is no way to get as good as them without playing as much as they do in raids. Just as you cant be the next home run hero by hitting a baseball a few hours a day 2-3d a week.
defton5198
join:2005-05-12
New Bern, NC

defton5198 to Poornoob

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to Poornoob
If you watch some mikpreachwow videos on youtube he talks about what it takes to raid with Method. He was in Method in Wrath or BC and is now a trial with the guild. When new content comes out they expect their main raid group to take 7-9 days off of work and spend at least 20 hours a day raiding to complete the content. That is another reason they have world top ten kills.
stiki
join:2010-01-25

stiki to Poornoob

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to Poornoob
They had another one of these last weekend. With blood legion stars paragon and some russian guild. You might want to check out if the vod is out. I was surprised at how popular it was there was over 50k people watching the stream.

Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob to Kearnstd

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to Kearnstd
I certainly don't expect to get to their level -- I don't have that much time to put in, and even if I did, my guild doesn't -- but I was hoping that ppl might have some insight beyond don't stand in the fire and know the kill order.

For example, in the Blackhorn fight, they kited the Vykrul to whichever drake was reeled into the deck, so they could take advantage of AoEs. My guild tanks had been tanking the two Vykul together, but hadn't been dragging them to the drake. A general principle that all raiders could learn from that is to look for opportunities to maximize AoE on multiple adds.

I'm sure I'll look at the vid again at some point, but it'd be nice to know what I'm looking for.

JB9
Stay Gold
Premium Member
join:2009-05-14

JB9

Premium Member

Sadly, there's not much left aside from not stand in fire, memorize your 3 button rotation and make sure you have good coordinated healers...... Anything you can do to make the raid easier = a good idea. Use cooldowns that aren't being, maximize damage output, multi-dotting, etc.

To a point you can't always have someone holding your hand, you have to think for yourself, the above is a solid start though.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

So far, Blackhorn has been the first fight where I simply cannot talk the raid through the fight. Can't happen. We discuss everyone's role... then give it a go... review what went wrong, try again. Hope to give it a try again this week.

Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob to JB9

Anon

to JB9
said by JB9:

Sadly, there's not much left aside from not stand in fire, memorize your 3 button rotation and make sure you have good coordinated healers...... Anything you can do to make the raid easier = a good idea. Use cooldowns that aren't being, maximize damage output, multi-dotting, etc.

To a point you can't always have someone holding your hand, you have to think for yourself, the above is a solid start though.

Frankly, there's plenty more than this. For example, on fights where adds are going to pop, as a dps or off-tank, I'll change my camera angle so I can see the spawn location, which allows me to locate that much faster than if I'm looking straight ahead at the boss. I suspect that's a trick that most non-pro raiders don't use. On fights with multiple targets, I'll have a targeting macro that will automatically go to the highest priority target. That's 2 tips that every raider can put in his play book. Add that to being completely spacially aware of the fight area, being in position ahead of the mechanic instead of reacting to it, and being aware of AoE maximixing situations from my prior posts, and that's five tips on raiding over and above don't stand in the fire.

Here are more tips: Call out when you're accepting a b-rez so the healers are ready to top you off; Warriors should prioritize heroic leap over intercept or charge when switching targets because of the damage it does; if you have a dk on a fight where you have to prevent something from getting somewhere, use deathgrip when it is close to where it's trying to get to.

I'm sure that pro tanks have tricks on how to position the boss that are way above facing him away from the raid; pro melee have tricks on how to move from one target to the next quickly; maybe there are tips on how to group the raid, etc. It's knowing these little things that turn your typical LFR doofus into a real raider, and a real raider into a pro.

I'm not talking about hand-holding. I'm talking about adding to my toolbag so maybe when my raid is struggling on something, I can say "hey, why don't we try this?" Yeah, a lot of this is knowing your class, and everyone else's class on top of that. Maybe my question is just too general; or maybe everyone thinks what they know is just too obvious; or maybe people on here haven't really thought about it. But specific recurring cases can be distilled into general principles that can be applied to different situations. That's what I'm asking about.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

No matter what pro tips you bring up, the one thing these "pros" have on us is hours spent raiding. You cannot duplicate time. They spend more time in the beta learning these fights than regular guilds will spend the whole time the current patch is active. I know your little tips may help, but time is the reason the VODKA's of the world can down it in 1 hour. Time also teaches these tricks you speak of. They have been beta farming this while you were still on Shannox.

Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob

Anon

Yes, I have no doubt that the time spent in dungeon is the single biggest factor in their skill level and learning raiding skills. But, I also think knowing a tip or skill and understanding what it is about speeds up the learning process. You might as well say "if you want to learn pitch, you have to spend your time pitching." That's true, but you'll learn faster, and understand what you are doing better, and have to do fewer problems, if you have a conceptual grasp of what you're doing rather than just blindly throwing ball after ball. How much faster will you learn to pitch if someone shows you how to grip a cutter? If someone shares that tip with me on attempt 10, I can start practicing that grip instead of trying to figure out "what's a cutter?" Am I the only one that gets that????
Threatco
join:2011-04-19
Moncton, NB

Threatco to Poornoob

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Pornboob is right.

Lot's of things you can learn. Lot's of ways to get rusty and lazy.

Some people think they are good when really they have never been a group that does anything hard. And so they have no reason to improve.
cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium Member
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE

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that is true but just because you know how to hold the ball, if you cant practice it for the amount of time you need to perfect it what help does it really give you, and if your teammates arent up to speed with you then you being that much better than they are just makes it frustrating to you and them.

Jakiel00
join:2007-12-12
Mckinney, TX

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said by Threatco:

Pornboob is right.

If only that was really his name...That would be funny
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

No matter what time spent is the key not holding a damn ball. If you learn a tip on hold the damn ball, it still takes time throwing this damn ball to perfect it. Just with a tip you will not perfectly execute a cutter, after 1000 cutters you should know how to throw it correctly.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer to Poornoob

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to Poornoob
said by Poornoob :

Yes, I have no doubt that the time spent in dungeon is the single biggest factor in their skill level and learning raiding skills. But, I also think knowing a tip or skill and understanding what it is about speeds up the learning process....

As a corollary to your argument, some activities (like golf and tennis) are prone to development of horrible habits when practiced without proper foreknowledge. In the case of golf, you may spend months unlearning what you "taught yourself" at the driving range... when a few hours of lessons would have avoided the problems in the first place.

However, some tips are meaningless the would-be raider, until said raider has actually seen the mechanic a couple of times... then they get their light-bulb moment, and all is well with the raid.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

Look i will agree tip or tricks can be learned to be a better raider, but this also goes with bring the player, not the class. Some players are just better. Kind of like Speed for an athlete. It is not something really learned, you either have it or not. Sure you can work on getting faster, but really it is something you are born with. Just like being good at activities like WoW. Some people you can explain the button boss to 100 times and they still die to the button boss 50% of the time or greater. Then take this to the next level of Heroics an oh my. The heroic button boss adds another person out and more fading lights. It is a recipe for disaster.

My thinking is we can argue all we want about this, but i truly feel some people are just better at raiding then others. The lacking players can learn tips, tricks, and spend time practicing, but some people will just "get it" faster.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

said by cigtyme:

i truly feel some people are just better at raiding than others. The lacking players can learn tips, tricks, and spend time practicing, but some people will just "get it" faster.

Agreed. That does not preclude the need to share tips, tricks, and starts... it merely implies the reduction of expectation might be in order.

Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob to cigtyme

Anon

to cigtyme
said by cigtyme:

Look i will agree tip or tricks can be learned to be a better raider, but this also goes with bring the player, not the class. Some players are just better. Kind of like Speed for an athlete. It is not something really learned, you either have it or not. Sure you can work on getting faster, but really it is something you are born with. Just like being good at activities like WoW. Some people you can explain the button boss to 100 times and they still die to the button boss 50% of the time or greater. Then take this to the next level of Heroics an oh my. The heroic button boss adds another person out and more fading lights. It is a recipe for disaster.

My thinking is we can argue all we want about this, but i truly feel some people are just better at raiding then others. The lacking players can learn tips, tricks, and spend time practicing, but some people will just "get it" faster.

I don't dispute anything you are saying; but you're giving up without trying, and worse, arguing that it's useless for me or anyone else to try. Show me how to grip the cutter, and I'll try throwing it; maybe I'll get it, maybe I won't. It may be that I just don't have the physical talent, but can understand how the cutter works and can teach it to someone else. Maybe I'll be able to throw a passable cutter that gets a swing an miss every once in a while. Or maybe, once I understand how to grip the ball, I'll be the next Mariano Rivera. But if nobody teaches me and I never try to learn, I've failed before I started. Isn't the whole point of this type of listserv to share knowledge? If nobody here knows and can't figure it out, I'm good with that -- but don't tell me it's useless even to try!
Poornoob

Poornoob

Anon

One other coment: The responses seem to think I'm asking for tips in hopes of an easy shortcut to becoming as good as Vodka and Method. Really, the race made me realize how weak my skills are, and have inspired me to improve much the way watching, say, watching Blake Griffin doing a monster slam might inspire a kid to practice basketball. I don't think I will ever become as good as they are, but that doesn't mean I can't learn from what they do. Maybe I don't have the physical skills to do a monster jam, but that doesn't mean I can't learn to do a pick-and-roll.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

So instead of a monster crit Arcane Blast you will perfect an iceblock lol.

Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob

Anon

said by cigtyme:

So instead of a monster crit Arcane Blast you will perfect an iceblock lol.

Yes, actually, because sometimes that's what the situation calls for. My raid team learned to do iceblock pulls on Lady Deathwhisper trash. The mage would blink into the middle of the trash, do a couple of AoE pulses, then iceblock. The trash would then collapse on him, and everyone else would AoE the bejeezus out of them. Took us about 10 seconds to clear the trash, instead of the 5-10 minutes a conventional pull required. A monster crit arcane blast in that situation would just have everything running everwhere, and wipe the raid. Take that and put it in your bag of tricks -- unless you think that's something only Vodka or Method can pull off, and only after they're heroic geared.

Despite your negativity and feeble attempts to mock me, I will always try to learn how to play smarter, and try to help those around me play smarter. If you don't want to play smarter, that's your choice; but don't narrow-mindedly try to drag me down with you.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

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some players are only better at raiding because they can spend so much time at it. This is why EU guilds are many times the world first leaders. They get lots more vacation time(usually by law), if they know an expansion is coming out they might burn two weeks of their time stash for the release. This means they can put in those 18hr playing sessions to be max lev in two or three days, it means they can start hitting raiding while most of us have gained two levels. They also play beta full time once they get their primary crew into the beta and the beta has raids they are raiding there too so they go into live already knowing the basic framework. Most of us have to read the beta stuff or learn it as we go in.

JB9
Stay Gold
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join:2009-05-14

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Lmfao.

Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob to Kearnstd

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to Kearnstd
said by Kearnstd:

some players are only better at raiding because they can spend so much time at it. This is why EU guilds are many times the world first leaders. They get lots more vacation time(usually by law), if they know an expansion is coming out they might burn two weeks of their time stash for the release. This means they can put in those 18hr playing sessions to be max lev in two or three days, it means they can start hitting raiding while most of us have gained two levels. They also play beta full time once they get their primary crew into the beta and the beta has raids they are raiding there too so they go into live already knowing the basic framework. Most of us have to read the beta stuff or learn it as we go in.

YES I GET THAT ALREADY. BUT HOW DOES THAT MAKE MY WANTING TO LEARN FROM WHAT THEY DO AND TRY IT FUTILE? What I'm asking is conceptually no different from watching the beta vids, and picking up their strats, but it's the next step up. I'm asking if anyone knows how they think about raids, and problem solving. I'm hoping that by learning this, even a little bit, I (and maybe other people here) can take the next step, or at least be able to go in with a better plan, and execute better after 20 trys instead of blindly going in with a bad noob plan and pounding my head against the wall wipe after wipe. I GET THAT I CAN'T GET AS GOOD AS THEY ARE WITHOUT 300 HOURS OF DUNGEON TIME. I'M NOT TRYING TO GET AS GOOD AS THEY ARE -- I'M TRYING TO GET BETTER THAN I AM FASTER THAT I WOULD BY JUST BLINDLY GOING IN TIME AFTER TIME. Practice doesn't help if you're not practicing something, and hurts if you practice it wrong. I'm trying to figure out what to practice.

At this point, I'm wasting my time on here. All the responses I've gotten have been "they practice a lot, and we don't". Well DUH. Either nobody on here knows, or they don't want to share. I just hope someone was able to learn something from what I've shared.

JB9
Stay Gold
Premium Member
join:2009-05-14

JB9

Premium Member

y r u so mad

Poornoob
@ultzindustries.com

Poornoob to Poornoob

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to Poornoob
Correction: Thanks Defton for the tip on the vid. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but I will!
Poornoob

Poornoob to JB9

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to JB9
Not mad - frustrated that the attitude on here seems to be "you can't do it, don't bother to try." If nobody knows, nobody knows, and I'm good with that. But having 4 or 5 different people post variations of "they practice a lot, you don't, too bad for you" is simply unhelpful, and discourages other people from posting something constructive. I'd have preferred nobody replied at all.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

I feel ya... focus on the ones you can help... ignore the naysayers.
cigtyme
Coonass and Proud of it
join:2010-08-17
Houma, LA

cigtyme

Member

I never said u cannot do it. Anything is possible or attainable. There is a reason some people get world first and some are stuck at 2/8 Heroic like myself. The best advice i can give you, or tip, is every button push has a result. Knowing the results of each buttonpush and understanding it will ultamately make you a better player. THE BEST WAY TO RAID BETTER IS A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR CLASS AND A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE MECHANICS OF EACH PARTICULAR FIGHT!!!

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

don't take it as an attack on you, ciggy... just a word of encouragement for poornoob.

carry-on, gentlemen... carry on.