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BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON

World IPv6 Day

Many ISPs around the world are officially going dual stack IPv4+6 this June 6th: »www.worldipv6launch.org/participants/?q=2 - so customers will automatically use IPv6 on any site that supports it, for example Netflix, Facebook, Google.

Not much presence here by Canada, in fact there's only one obscure VPS hosting company from BC.

For all the talk Bell does about capex for their state-of-the-art network it would be nice to see their name on the list...

kovy7

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8
What does IPV6 do for me, as a customer ?


Chuckcar OTT

@teksavvy.com
It could still get you some free binary newsgroups.


Paolo
Mr. Wireless

join:2004-05-29
canada
reply to kovy7
ipv6 day was a year ago


openvz_ca

join:2008-12-13
canada

1 recommendation

said by Paolo:

ipv6 day was a year ago

This is different than ipv6 day. Participants in this launch will be turning on IPv6 permanently, not just testing it for one day.

@OP, there's much more presence for IPv6 enabled hosting providers. You just gotta know where to look

As for Bell... They are advertising a /32 IPv6 prefix (2001:4958::/32). Maybe they are just working on infrastrucuture.

The big beef with going IPv6 isn't really the networking aspect, it's mostly the software issues. There's a lot of legacy stuff that doesn't support IPv6 (and I'm sure Bell has got a lot of custom software in their network that needs updating).

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to BliZZardX
I have been using dual-stack with Teksavvy IPv6-beta DSL login for about three years.

Main reason I started using it was because Bell's network-wide P2P throttling (now discontinued) ignored IPv6 traffic, so no throttling if I was lucky enough to get fast IPv6 seeds on torrents.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to BliZZardX
IPv6 is an abomination which I hope dies a fast death. It only has one real advantage over IPv4 (multicast in the core spec) and carriers aren't supporting that anyhow. Apart from that, all IPv6 gives us is a nightmare of impossible to remember addresses and painfully complex configuration scenarios.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


openvz_ca

join:2008-12-13
canada

1 recommendation

said by Guspaz:

IPv6 is an abomination which I hope dies a fast death. It only has one real advantage over IPv4 (multicast in the core spec) and carriers aren't supporting that anyhow. Apart from that, all IPv6 gives us is a nightmare of impossible to remember addresses and painfully complex configuration scenarios.

The numbers don't need to be painful to remember if assigned with reasonable planning.

Most customers will get a /64, so as an example from a Bell Customer, the most comlicated numbers you'd have to remember are the first 4 fields: 2001:4958:f1:4555::

That being said, yes it is harder to remember those numbers over v4.

But there are some benefits to IPv6 that make subnetting much easier and more efficient. Almost to the point where it's not even needed because there's so many addresses in the first place.

In terms of "painfully complex configuration scenarios" I've not encountered anything "painfully complex" comared to IPv4 equivalent.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to BliZZardX
I'll just refer you to a post written by my ex-boss. I don't agree with quite everything in it (SNI isn't really a viable solution to requiring one IP per HTTPS site), but most of it sums it up pretty well.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON

1 recommendation

reply to kovy7
> What does IPV6 do for me, as a customer ?

The reader will note that no answer has yet been given for that question.

I for one like the idea that I can obtain a new IPv4 IP address when ever I desire by software disconnect / reconnect command given to my router. As a residential broadband subscriber, I would not want to ever be handicapped by being assigned a static IP or subnet (regardless if IPv4 or v6).

And here's a question I've never seen a coherent answer for: When someone with an IPv6 address hits my IPv4 SMTP or HTTP server at $dayjob, what IP address will I see in my server's logs?

file

join:2011-03-29
Riverview, NB

1 recommendation

As a customer that depends on what type of customer you are. For a standard residential user not much. You gain access to IPv6-only hosts. For a more advanced user you get a block of addresses which you can assign as you see fit, allowing potential direct access to systems (provided firewall rules allow it) from the outside. You also get to drop the use of 'internal' addresses because you can just use the same address for accessing externally as internally.

Your comment about being assigned a static IP or subnet is true, to an extent. If you are assigned a subnet you can change your address to anything within the subnet as you want. Is it the same as getting a new DHCP lease from your ISP? No, but your address is still different.

As for your question about what you see if an IPv6 address hits your IPv4 server... well, that depends.

If the system is dual stack then they will also have an IPv4 address. If the system is IPv6-only then something will be doing the conversion (something at the ISP maybe) and you will see their IPv4 address.

I'd like to pose this question though - what would people want to see happen instead of IPv6? The lack of addresses is a real eventual threat, so *something* has to occur.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

1 recommendation

reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

IPv6 is an abomination which I hope dies a fast death. It only has one real advantage over IPv4 (multicast in the core spec) and carriers aren't supporting that anyhow. Apart from that, all IPv6 gives us is a nightmare of impossible to remember addresses and painfully complex configuration scenarios.

Get back to me when IPv4 expands that address space to handle the modern day Internet and networks of today.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to sm5w2
said by sm5w2:

And here's a question I've never seen a coherent answer for: When someone with an IPv6 address hits my IPv4 SMTP or HTTP server at $dayjob, what IP address will I see in my server's logs?

You won't since such a connection is not possible.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

1 recommendation

reply to file
said by file:

I'd like to pose this question though - what would people want to see happen instead of IPv6? The lack of addresses is a real eventual threat, so *something* has to occur.

The typical human response... shove their heads in the sand and pretend the problem does not exist. Wait until the very last second and then possibly come up with a solution and hope it'll work being implemented over night.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to 34764170
said by 34764170:

Get back to me when IPv4 expands that address space to handle the modern day Internet and networks of today.

Since IPv6 is still dead in the water, IPv4's address space is handling the modern day Internet just fine. The vast majority of devices don't need publicly routable IPs.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
said by Guspaz:

said by 34764170:

Get back to me when IPv4 expands that address space to handle the modern day Internet and networks of today.

Since IPv6 is still dead in the water, IPv4's address space is handling the modern day Internet just fine. The vast majority of devices don't need publicly routable IPs.

I don't expect you to get it.

file

join:2011-03-29
Riverview, NB

1 recommendation

reply to Guspaz
Devices may not need individual publicly routable IPs... but would you as a customer want at least one? Cause there will come a point where that won't be possible with IPv4.


sm5w2
Premium
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON
> Devices may not need individual publicly routable IPs... but would you
> as a customer want at least one?

Just as your own residential modem / router creates an internal private subnet and uses NAT to allow all devices to have internet access through a single routable IP address, the same concept could be applied at the ISP level - but with some considerations.

You wouldn't want to do this with hard-line DSL or cable customers (who very well would or could be running applications that require incoming packet routability - a situation that isin't workable if NAT is running on the WAN side) but this could be done for cellular-based internet access - where the consumer device is your typical "walled-garden" iSlave product or otherwise a smart phone or tablet (ie - a device not likely to have open ports waiting for incoming connections).

A single public IP address could be used as a NAT gateway by 254 cell phones (for example). Remember that a significant majority of homes on planet earth (or what passes for a home) will never see hard-wire run to them (at least not for communications).

That is why IPv4 still has legs. That, and there are still some entities that have /8's assigned to them (that needs to be taken from them by hook or by crook).

file

join:2011-03-29
Riverview, NB

1 recommendation

Sure, IPv4 could be stretched to last longer but there will come a point no matter what where it will run out. Testing the replacement and bringing it into use early means that when IPv4 does disappear the migration won't be last minute/half assed. Standards and best practices now for a better tomorrow.

And what you are referring to is carrier grade NAT, which cellular providers are already doing due to the sheer number of devices. If you want your cellphone/smartphone/mobile data service to have a public IP address you usually have to pay more.

Some cable companies have actually already deployed IPv6 behind the scenes for the communication between modem and equipment at their office. They were running out of internal IP addresses.

Totally agree re: /8s. Going down the road of taking them though would probably yield some sort of legal action.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to file
Would I want one? Sure. A few other people might too. But the vast majority of consumers don't need a dedicated IP. My parents, for example, don't. Most web servers don't either.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

file

join:2011-03-29
Riverview, NB

1 edit

1 recommendation

Web servers need an IP address... now, you can front many of them with a virtual host aware solution that forwards the traffic accordingly but if your ISP doesn't support that and you have no dedicated IP... you are screwed. The same applies for other protocols. It's *possible* but not feasible.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to sm5w2
said by sm5w2:

That is why IPv4 still has legs. That, and there are still some entities that have /8's assigned to them (that needs to be taken from them by hook or by crook).

It does not and that does not "fix" anything.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

1 recommendation

reply to file
said by file:

Web servers need an IP address... now, you can front many of them with a virtual host aware solution that forwards the traffic accordingly but if your ISP doesn't support that and you have no dedicated IP... you are screwed. The same applies for other protocols. It's *possible* but not feasible.

A web server needs one IP address (unless you're hosting a secure site), and every major web server software has supported virtual hosts for ages (decades, in the case of Apache?). No ISP support is required, since your ISP is just a dumb pipe.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

file

join:2011-03-29
Riverview, NB

1 recommendation

But there will come a time where you don't get a publicly routable IP address. None. Zip. Nada. Then you are screwed. That's my point. Being stingy with IPv4 addresses will help delay the inevitable, but it's still going to happen.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

IPv6 is an abomination which I hope dies a fast death.

Nothing inherently wrong with IPv6, it fixes many of IPv4's shortcomings and streamlines a few things. The only inconvenient is longer addresses.

said by Guspaz:

Apart from that, all IPv6 gives us is a nightmare of impossible to remember addresses and painfully complex configuration scenarios.

No need to remember addresses when you use ARP/DNS.

As far as configuration goes, most of it is the exact same thing as IPv4 and fully automatic from an end-user point of view with devices that have full native support. Only problem there is that many "IPv6-ready" broadband routers are missing IPv6 auto-configuration support.


openvz_ca

join:2008-12-13
canada

1 recommendation

reply to sm5w2
said by sm5w2:

> What does IPV6 do for me, as a customer ?

It allows you to do the exact same thing you already do, so that your children and childrens children will also be able to do it.

said by sm5w2:

The reader will note that no answer has yet been given for that question.

I for one like the idea that I can obtain a new IPv4 IP address when ever I desire by software disconnect / reconnect command given to my router. As a residential broadband subscriber, I would not want to ever be handicapped by being assigned a static IP or subnet (regardless if IPv4 or v6).

Explain to me how you are being handicapped by a static IP subnet? Unless you're doing malicious things, there's no handicap of being behind the same ip range each day.

In fact, it would make things easier for you if you want to connect to your home remotely for whatever reason (VPN) etc..

said by sm5w2:

And here's a question I've never seen a coherent answer for: When someone with an IPv6 address hits my IPv4 SMTP or HTTP server at $dayjob, what IP address will I see in my server's logs?

You're asking for something that isn't possible, which leads me to believe that you don't know enough about IPv6 to understand the reason why it will eventually be needed.


openvz_ca

join:2008-12-13
canada

1 recommendation

reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:

Since IPv6 is still dead in the water, IPv4's address space is handling the modern day Internet just fine. The vast majority of devices don't need publicly routable IPs.

One thing I must agree with. Currently IPv4 IS working just fine.

One other thing the world cannot measure, is how much reserve IPv4 space the current ISP's have on hand.

There are a lot of companies out there with legacy space (Cogent, Level3 etc...)

The public will never know what the "actual" utilization of their current blocks are. Obviously some ISP's will be better prepared than others when the crunch happens. But when it will happen isn't proven.

One thing we all forget is that participation in IPv6 starts with the ISP's. If there was a real crunch for IPv4 (right now), you would see them implementing quicker than they are. Especially the ones who are reaching capacity for their stock on IPv4.

As of right now less than 1% of .com websites who have an A record, have an AAAA record. Laughable.

Content needs to be ready before the end users.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to BliZZardX
It's a catch-22, and it's why IPv6 will probably thankfully never catch on. Providers don't want to bother with IPv6 because end-users can't use it, and there's no demand from end-users because there's no content.

If they had wanted to, they could have FORCED a rapid transition, but they didn't, and it may be too late.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

kovy7

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8
said by Guspaz:

It's a catch-22, and it's why IPv6 will probably thankfully never catch on. Providers don't want to bother with IPv6 because end-users can't use it, and there's no demand from end-users because there's no content.

If they had wanted to, they could have FORCED a rapid transition, but they didn't, and it may be too late.

Too late for what?

You really think were going to have a crysis of IPV4 ? The day that people can't browse because their ISP has no more IP ?

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to openvz_ca
said by openvz_ca:

Content needs to be ready before the end users.

Content is irrelevant, any content can travel just as easily over IPv4 and IPv6, IPv6 does not change anything fundamental there.

The main things IPv6 is missing is full support on CPE, broadband routers and some network edge equipment in the carriers' networks (mostly equipment over 4 years old) is where the real problems are.

Once full IPv6 support becomes available from end to end, most people won't even notice that they have been switched over.