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r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·row44

2 edits
reply to Jackarino

Re: K&N Air Filter


Click for full size
Just put it this way. Your car is designed to operate with the stock filter.
Paper filters filter more particles than a K&N which means less dirt through your engine.
K&Ns even clog faster in the ISO 5011 test than paper filters.

Unless you are redesigning your engine to need more air to actually need a K&N filter it is pointless to use them and a waste of money.

said by »forums.nicoclub.com/debunking-th···100.html :
Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt. See the data tables for a complete summary of these comparisons.
Some paper filters are designed to last 50K miles. Most people can probably get 20K miles out of their paper filters before it needs to be replaced.
OEM style air filter = $13
K&N = $52
K&N recharge kit = $12

Basically you can buy 5 paper air filters for one K&N + recharge kit.
So you might be able to start saving money with a K&N after about 100,000 miles and that is only if you can use the recharge kit more than once. It just is not worth it on a stock engine when it filters less dirt.

--
...brought to you by Carl's Jr.


Bruschi
Premium
join:2001-04-16
Cape Cod
kudos:1

»www.dieselplace.com/forum/showth···?t=66536 You should post his follow up study that was done at the K&N factory. The results he got were very different than the ones in the graph.
--
Professional student pilot!



MooJohn

join:2005-12-18
Milledgeville, GA
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to r81984

I hope no one buys a K&N or other performance filter to save money. The reusable aspect is nice but it really shouldn't be a selling point because of how long it takes to break even.

I also question the relevancy of the amount of particulates passed because we have no idea if that has a direct correlation with engine damage. For all we know this matter passes harmlessly through the engine. I'd worry about the size of these particles moreso than the quantity. I haven't seen anyone report the threshold at which a particle becomes hazardous to the engine in terms of wear.

Whatever the case, I believe that you will need to rebuild an engine for a host of other reasons long before your choice of air filter makes a difference in its service life.
--
John M - Cranky network guy



r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·row44
reply to Bruschi

said by Bruschi:

»www.dieselplace.com/forum/showth···?t=66536 You should post his follow up study that was done at the K&N factory. The results he got were very different than the ones in the graph.

The tests were valid. K&N just tests were not as real world as the test in that link. Also K&N results were not that different.
K&N still meets mfg minimum specs for cleaning air.

K&N definitely gives more airflow, but that means nothing with a stock engine. Unless you installed parts that you calculated needs more airflow it makes no sense to spend the extra money for a K&N filter. Your stock engine is designed to work with the stock filter.
--
...brought to you by Carl's Jr.


Cho Baka
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
kudos:2
reply to MooJohn

Particles passed by the air filter = cylinder bore wear.

Particles, regardless of size, can be abrasive.
Is it any co-incidence that the OE filter is best at filtering?
--
The talented hawk speaks French.



Nuckfuts
Premium
join:2003-10-18
Joliet, IL
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to r81984

said by r81984:

said by Bruschi:

»www.dieselplace.com/forum/showth···?t=66536 You should post his follow up study that was done at the K&N factory. The results he got were very different than the ones in the graph.

The tests were valid. K&N just tests were not as real world as the test in that link. Also K&N results were not that different.
K&N still meets mfg minimum specs for cleaning air.

K&N definitely gives more airflow, but that means nothing with a stock engine. Unless you installed parts that you calculated needs more airflow it makes no sense to spend the extra money for a K&N filter. Your stock engine is designed to work with the stock filter.

From my understanding if a K&N gives more air flow than stock the car's computer is gonna compensate for more air by using more fuel? So you could actually get less mpg with a K&N?


MooJohn

join:2005-12-18
Milledgeville, GA
Reviews:
·Windstream

Yes. More air = more gas = more power and poorer mileage. There's no such thing as free horsepower.

Whether that's .1 mpg difference or 2 mpg depends on how much power that is. A forced induction vehicle will make the most use of a free-flowing intake.
--
John M - Cranky network guy


PrntRhd
Premium
join:2004-11-03
Fairfield, CA
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

reply to Nuckfuts

said by Nuckfuts:

said by r81984:

said by Bruschi:

»www.dieselplace.com/forum/showth···?t=66536 You should post his follow up study that was done at the K&N factory. The results he got were very different than the ones in the graph.

The tests were valid. K&N just tests were not as real world as the test in that link. Also K&N results were not that different.
K&N still meets mfg minimum specs for cleaning air.

K&N definitely gives more airflow, but that means nothing with a stock engine. Unless you installed parts that you calculated needs more airflow it makes no sense to spend the extra money for a K&N filter. Your stock engine is designed to work with the stock filter.

From my understanding if a K&N gives more air flow than stock the car's computer is gonna compensate for more air by using more fuel? So you could actually get less mpg with a K&N?

Fluid dynamics do not always work that way, if you have less restriction you also have less pumping losses so it does not necessarily equal less gas mileage. Less restriction will allow more power but dirt will cause more engine wear...there are trade-offs for most engineering solutions.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Jackarino

They're OK
Green filters USA is better.

As for a CAI depending on your car there might be better.



DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to PrntRhd

Correct

In an engine you're just lowering the resistaance to air coming in, you're not pushing more in.

It can mean the total air that gets in is a little more but not alot more.

What messes it up is if you use a MAF housing that gives a larger diameter than stock thus messing up the calculations due to the MAF sensor data not being accurate any more.

The correction is to fix the formulas (basicly a co-efficient.

For instance on the 2005-2010 mustant GT, the C&L CAI comes with an insert that narrows the path but if you have a tunner (like the SCT X3) and someone that can make tune files then you can remove that insert.

On the 05-2010 mustang GT's and CAI that doesn't require a tune won't give you much if any power (ie the K&N CAI)



mob
On the next level..
Premium
join:2000-10-07
Reviews:
·SureWest Internet

Click for full size
said by DarkLogix:

...For instance on the 2005-2010 mustant GT, the C&L CAI comes with an insert that narrows the path but if you have a tuner (like the SCT X3) and someone that can make tune files then you can remove that insert.

On the 05-2010 mustang GT's and CAI that doesn't require a tune won't give you much if any power (ie the K&N CAI)

I saw 281 RWHP on a mostly stock (only had a K&N CAI and Flowmaster axle backs) 2007 GT.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SNj9LaPLi8


Then...

»www.americanmuscle.com/c-l-cai-0509gt.html

Navigate to that page and click on the video. Even with a tune and "racer" CAI my car somehow put more power down.
--
Ich habe kein Mitleid - Me
You're a daisy if you do. - Doc Holliday
And as always, have nice day.

ke4pym
Premium
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
Reviews:
·VOIPO
·ooma
·Verizon Broadban..
·Northland Cable ..
·Time Warner Cable
reply to mattmag

said by mattmag:

Yes, MAF contamination is also a problem with the oiled-media type filters.

While I'm only but one observer, I can say that the K&N CAI installed on my 02' 150 hasn't caused the MAF any issues. And it is about 4" up from the inlet of the filter and probably no more than 7" away from the media.

And it's been on there for 8 years.


mattmag
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois
kudos:3

said by ke4pym:

While I'm only but one observer, I can say that the K&N CAI installed on my 02' 150 hasn't caused the MAF any issues. And it is about 4" up from the inlet of the filter and probably no more than 7" away from the media.

And it's been on there for 8 years.

I should qualify that statement--- an *improperly serviced* oiled-media filter can cause MAF issues. I ran into cases where the filter was obviously over-oiled, and those were the problem children, and I don't believe I ever did with those that were properly maintained.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to mob

said by mob:

said by DarkLogix:

...For instance on the 2005-2010 mustant GT, the C&L CAI comes with an insert that narrows the path but if you have a tuner (like the SCT X3) and someone that can make tune files then you can remove that insert.

On the 05-2010 mustang GT's and CAI that doesn't require a tune won't give you much if any power (ie the K&N CAI)

I saw 281 RWHP on a mostly stock (only had a K&N CAI and Flowmaster axle backs) 2007 GT.

(youtube clip)
to that page and click on the video. Even with a tune and "racer" CAI my car somehow put more power down.

To properly compare mods you need to test them on the same dyno, same area, and same weather.

Are you sure that that 281 isn't crank corrected? and the americanmuscle isn't RWHP?

the insert is removed on the street and race model of the C&L when you plan to put a tune on and the race one really isn't much over the street.


Jackarino
YacCity
Premium
join:2006-12-28
Allendale, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Jackarino

Since I installed my K&N I have seen some performance differences (in a very good way)

So far, im quite satisfied



No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6

(topic move) K&N Air Filter

Moderator Action
The post that was here (and all 1 followups to it), has been moved to a new topic .. »K&N Air Filter