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Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to elwoodblues

Re: [Rant] Kirpans allowed in Ontario Courts

We've been down this road already, when a kid got kicked out of school in 2001 in Quebec for carrying a Kirpan... The case eventually went to the Supreme Court of Canada, who ruled unanimously in 2006 that the school ban on kirpans was unconstitutional. I don't see how replacing "school" with "court" changes anything...

Agree with the decision or not, we settled this issue 6 years ago.
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Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by Guspaz:

I don't see how replacing "school" with "court" changes anything

... uh, seriously? It's a huge freaking massive difference is what it is.

A courthouse, for one thing, is something protected under the Public Works Protection Act in Ontario - you know, the 'Secret G20 law' and all that stuff. It is considered a secure area and anyone entering it is subject to search. You walk through metal detectors before entering them and the police search you. And it's for good reason - things happen in a courtroom that make otherwise very peaceful people very angry to the point where they could react violently. The last thing you want anyone to have is something that could be used as a weapon - be it a metal pipe, a chair (hah!) or a kirpan.

While a school is certainly an area you don't want weapons, it is in no way shape or form the same kind of environment, and an attempt to draw a parallel between the two is foolish.
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differentEEK

@videotron.ca
reply to Gone

Re: [Rant] Kirpans allowed in Ontario Courts

said by Gone:

[The last thing you want anyone to have is something that could be used as a weapon - be it a metal pipe, a chair (hah!) or a kirpan.

What about a star of David. I could likely stab your jugular with that pointy thing.

I could take a cross hanging off your neck, put the cross part between my finders and use the bottom of the cross as a stabbing object to take out your eye and hopefully reach your brain if the cross is big enough.

I could use one of those Muslim head dresses to wrap it around someones neck.

One solution. Everyone should go naked because some people are ruled by fear.

Because we all know if you aren't born here, then we need to be like America and assimilate everyone as we see fit and to our liking so that we can no longer be afraid of things that are different.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

1 edit
Funny how the guy from Quebec mentioned the "Star of David" - as if people of Jewish descent and/or faith wear ninja-star sized ones around their neck so that they can be prepared for the next time they encounter Celine Forget - as his first rebuttal.

Am I surprised? No. Is anyone else here? Probably not. Just remember - this is the same [person] who time and time again has called me a a racist or bigot for pointing out the obvious.


PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to differentEEK
said by differentEEK :

What about a star of David. I could likely stab your jugular with that pointy thing.

I could take a cross hanging off your neck, put the cross part between my finders and use the bottom of the cross as a stabbing object to take out your eye and hopefully reach your brain if the cross is big enough....

1) None of those other things are [designed] as weapons, a Kirpan is.

2) Funny how a guy from the LEAST tolerant part of Canada, preaches tolerance.


urbanriot
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join:2004-10-18
Canada
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reply to elwoodblues
There's a lot of blustery exaggerations in this thread.

The kirpan in question would rationally be ceremonial and not a crocadile dundee machete and the blade may not exceed 10 CM.

Take out a measuring tape.

When we have a vicious court stabbing from a people wearing a kirpan, then get back to me; until then a lot of whinging over nothing.

said by elwoodblues:

Apparently there were 2, count'em 2 complaints since 2006, and now in the name of "religious freedom" they get to bring weapons into court, while the rest of us would be hung from the rafters if we tried to bring in a "ceremonial" weapon in with us.

Not exactly. I typically concealed carry my trusty standard issue spyderco and I haven't been hung from any rafters. Heck, these guys are wearing their knives on their belts so they're certainly safer than people who aren't.

If everyone's going to get their panties in a bunch, why don't they start crying for metal detectors in all courts since no one seems to be bitching about anyone else who could have a knife in their pockets.

In fact, I can't dig up a single incident involving a Sikh knifing anyone in court while there's been plenty of incidents in Canada, in courts of regular people pulling out knives and cutting others or themselves.


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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said by urbanriot:

The kirpan in question would rationally be ceremonial and not a crocadile dundee machete and the blade may not exceed 10 CM.

Take out a measuring tape.




That's 8cm.




This is 10cm.

I'm sure the police have shot people for waving around less, but I digress.

As for your spyderco, you wouldn't be allowed into the Robert S.K. Welch Courthouse with it and would set off the metal detector you need to walk through, that's for sure. If they caught you with it inside, you'd be arrested.


urbanriot
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said by Gone:

I'm sure the police have shot people for waving around less, but I digress.

I'm sure this is concerning a law to allow people to openly wear an ornamental knife rather than waving one around so I'm sure them and everyone else will be okay. At least with Sikh's, we can see who has a knife.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
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join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Bosty
Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

PX Eliezer70
Premium
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Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to Gone
Will these religious knives also be allowed on airplanes?


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

I'm sure this is concerning a law to allow people to openly wear an ornamental knife rather than waving one around so I'm sure them and everyone else will be okay. At least with Sikh's, we can see who has a knife.

No, this discussion is related to bringing what amounts to a knife into an Ontario courtroom (see first post here), which is considered a secure area under the Public Works Protection Act in Ontario where knifes are otherwise prohibited as a safety concern.

I have no problem with someone walking down the street wearing a kirpan. Hell, I don't even think they're such a big deal in schools (I mean, kids use cutlery after all) I simply take issue with them being able to bring one into a designated secure area where the whole purpose of the area being secure is to prevent objects like even basic cutlery from getting in.
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pnjunction
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Toronto, ON
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reply to DKS

Re: [Rant] Kirpans allowed in Ontario Courts

said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

And legalized by the government, who allows some people to carry knives in secure areas but not others.


urbanriot
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Canada
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And on top of that, doesn't scrutinize regular domestic looking white folks who could easily be carrying knives... only the people that are publicly wearing them. Ironic, the hypocracy.


HiVolt
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reply to DKS
said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

Please... Spare us your cut & paste response every time...


Gone
Premium
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Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

And on top of that, doesn't scrutinize regular domestic looking white folks who could easily be carrying knives.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. The last time I went into the RSK Welch Courthouse I had to place everything in my pockets into a basket that was looked over by an NRPS officer sitting at a table. I was asked if I had any guns, knives or anything else that could be considered a weapon. I then had to walk through a metal detector, and then to top things off I had to hold my shirt up so they could see my my belt line and was made to stand there with my arms in the air while a different NRPS officer waved a metal detecting wand over me just to make sure I had nothing. I'm as white as they come, so your hyperbole is outright false.

Remember - this discussion has nothing to do with carrying a kirpan in public. It's about being allowed to bring them into a courthouse when security is otherwise so strict that during busy times of day a lawyer needs to leave a half an hour early for court just to get through it in time.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

Please... Spare us your cut & paste response every time...

Just as predictable as the usual racism.
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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
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reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by urbanriot:

And on top of that, doesn't scrutinize regular domestic looking white folks who could easily be carrying knives.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. The last time I went into the RSK Welch Courthouse I had to place everything in my pockets into a basket that was looked over by an NRPS officer sitting at a table. I was asked if I had any guns, knives or anything else that could be considered a weapon. I then had to walk through a metal detector, and then to top things off I had to hold my shirt up so they could see my my belt line and was made to stand there with my arms in the air while a different NRPS officer waved a metal detecting wand over me just to make sure I had nothing. I'm as white as they come, so your hyperbole is outright false.

Remember - this discussion has nothing to do with carrying a kirpan in public. It's about being allowed to bring them into a courthouse when security is otherwise so strict that during busy times of day a lawyer needs to leave a half an hour early for court just to get through it in time.

I have walked into the courthouse in Owen Sound and not been searched, but have been in London. Go figure.
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HiVolt
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reply to DKS
said by DKS:

said by HiVolt:

said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

Please... Spare us your cut & paste response every time...

Just as predictable as the usual racism.

What racism? I'll quote Gone See Profile which is exactly the issue we're discussing.

said by Gone:

Remember - this discussion has nothing to do with carrying a kirpan in public. It's about being allowed to bring them into a courthouse when security is otherwise so strict that during busy times of day a lawyer needs to leave a half an hour early for court just to get through it in time.


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Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to DKS
said by DKS:

I have walked into the courthouse in Owen Sound and not been searched, but have been in London. Go figure.

Do they have a security perimeter set up at the court in Owen Sound?

I swear, the way they have it set up in St. Catharines is worse than an American airport. I'd hate to see what it's like when they call jury duty.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

What racism? I'll quote Gone See Profile which is exactly the issue we're discussing.

Objecting to expression of basic religious freedom is the point. The rest is peripheral. If the court system objects and sees the kirpan as a problem, they will do so. Otherwise, it's a non-issue.
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Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

What racism?

Questioning why someone should be able to bring a blade - even a religious ceremonial one - into a secure area is not racist at all.

The problem, which has already been demonstrated in this thread, is that people instantly associate any discussion like this as extending beyond the secure area we're specifically speaking about, and that we want to infringe on people's rights everywhere. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As I said earlier - I could care less if someone of Sikh faith carries a kirpan with them wherever they go, even to a school. The issue is that a courthouse is a secure area where items like this are otherwise prohibited, and as a result they should not be able to bring them in regardless of their faith. I would like to think that whatever God they believe in would understand the circumstances.

I am also not inferring that everyone with a kirpan is going to be violent and use it, either. Think about it - has anyone considered that someone else could grab it and use it as a weapon?


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to DKS
said by DKS:

Objecting to expression of basic religious freedom is the point.

So where do you draw the line between the public good and religious freedom on matters of law?


urbanriot
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Canada
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Reviews:
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reply to Gone
said by Gone:

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. The last time I went into the RSK Welch Courthouse I had to place everything in my pockets into a basket that was looked over by an NRPS officer sitting at a table.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit indeed. LOL because you've been to one court in your life and searched at this one court, you believe they all search?


HiVolt
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Toronto, ON
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I've been to court here several times. I was search in detail much like Gone described. So was everyone else regardless of skin colour.

And one white guy got tossed out on the street because he would refuse to unclip his nail clipper from his car keys.

But now a Kirpan is permitted, while a nail clipper isn't. Where's the flippin logic.
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Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to urbanriot
Irrelevant. To remind you again, we're talking about secure areas with security perimeters under the Public Works Protection Act, not other locations. I could give two shits about the courts out there like the one in Fort Erie that doesn't search. That's not what we're talking about.

Now back to the topic...

Ask yourself this - why should a Sikh be able to carry a kirpan into a secure area (anywhere else is irrelevant, and I could give two shits about) when someone can't even bring in a knife and fork in with their lunch?

Simple question. I await your answer.